Lower Chain Infested

[RavYak]

Went up to Lower Chain this weekend and was surprised by how slow the fishing was. Ended up catching 12 rainbows and almost every fish I caught had bumps or open sores from some sort of disease/parasite.



Then I caught this guy. I am hoping it is just a spine deformity but I kept him and will be submitting him to biologists to be tested for whirling disease.



Anyways if you were thinking of heading up that way probably best to go somewhere else for now.

[Dragless]

Not good

[roughneckin]

That 2nd one definitely looks to be Whirling.
This isn't going to be good for our fisheries at all

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by roughneckin

That 2nd one definitely looks to be Whirling.
This isn't going to be good for our fisheries at all

Yeah if it does end up being whirling(no guarantees) then that would mean it is probably already in a bunch of our stocked ponds as it most likely would have came from one of the hatcheries.

[Penner]

The bumps I believe are caused by a parasite in trout in warm water (warmer then they would naturally live in). Its prevalent in many stocked ponds at this time of year.

The tail likely a deformity from birth at the hatchery.

[fishhard]

It is because of the warm water it will go away once the water temps drop.
Once the water temps reach 70 degrees and above it puts a lot of stress on rainbows. There is a good chance they will not survive if they are released.
Good idea to fish for warm water species instead.
Just my two cents.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Penner

The bumps I believe are caused by a parasite in trout in warm water (warmer then they would naturally live in). Its prevalent in many stocked ponds at this time of year.

The tail likely a deformity from birth at the hatchery.

I have never seen a lake this bad before, first time fishing there this time of the year though so maybe it is common for up there. I definitely wouldn't eat anything out of there, I barely even wanted to touch them lol.

I am hoping it is just a deformity from birth or a broken tail when young etc but you never know. If anyone catches a fish with this type of deformity fisheries wants you to report it and turn it in for testing to confirm either way.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Yeah if it does end up being whirling(no guarantees) then that would mean it is probably already in a bunch of our stocked ponds as it most likely would have came from one of the hatcheries.

I'm curious why you would think whirling disease? Seems like a very unlikely cause of that relatively common deformation (particularly hatchery fish where this is seen quite commonly). Was the fish swimming funny (they often spin in circles and corkscrew)?

I realise the disease does deform the skeletal system but there are many other reasons this could happen.

I hope your wrong. That would suck.

[Brian Adams]

Originally Posted by EZM

I'm curious why you would think whirling disease?

Because it has a deformed tail. He is getting it checked out.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by EZM

I'm curious why you would think whirling disease? Seems like a very unlikely cause of that relatively common deformation (particularly hatchery fish where this is seen quite commonly). Was the fish swimming funny (they often spin in circles and corkscrew)?

I realise the disease does deform the skeletal system but there are many other reasons this could happen.

I hope your wrong. That would suck.

Very unlikely cause of a spinal deformation that looks very similar to that seen in whirling disease fish? There were infected hatcheries so finding infected fish in stocked ponds is far from an unrealistic possibility. The known infected hatcheries did not stock fish this year but that doesnt mean they didnt stock infected fish last year. When these rivers and hatcheries became infected is unknown and based on the diseases wide spread throughout the southern river systems it has obviously been here in AB for a bit.

To answer your other questions I did not see it swimming in circles as I caught it in deep water and was not about to release it or tell when it was tied to a stringer.

What I did find odd about this deformation compared to other spinal deformations I have seen in trout is that the way the muscles were deformed it was almost like the deformation had occured recently instead of being due to an old injury. The muscles were stretched and bulged like plastic does if you heat it up and kink it whereas in the usual deformed trout they are just a kinked skeletal shape with normal muscular structure. I have also never caught a trout with kinked tail like this, usually the deformed hatchery fish are hunchbacks or deformed faces.

This is far from a guaranteed case but you would be crazy to just write this off as a regular occurence. I posted it here for people to be aware and report any similar occurences. Since posting this I was also sent a picture of a slightly deformed tiger trout. I will post the picture if the individual would like others to see. It looks more like a old injury picture but the guy that caught it has caught a number of trout and felt the need to send the picture to biologists so that is two questionable cases noticed in the past few weeks in the same lake.

If fishing lower chain make sure to clean drain and dry yor boats thoroughly before going to any other trout ponds. I dont know if fisheries will stay in contact and update me of the results of testing but I hope they will so I can keep others posted here.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Yeah if it does end up being whirling(no guarantees) then that would mean it is probably already in a bunch of our stocked ponds as it most likely would have came from one of the hatcheries.

Yeah more than likely it was already released from a hatchery but the CFIA doesn't say if the hatchery they found that had Whirling found in it released any fish.

http://inspection.gc.ca/animals/aqua.../1473443993551

Crappy part is once it's there it's there.

[Penner]

Whirling disease first off impacts juveniles not adult trout. They have skeletal deformities, swim in circles, and I also believe they have really darken or even black tails. I'm no expert but I'll bet money that trouts tail deformity has nothing to do with whirling disease.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Penner

Whirling disease first off impacts juveniles not adult trout. They have skeletal deformities, swim in circles, and I also believe they have really darken or even black tails. I'm no expert but I'll bet money that trouts tail deformity has nothing to do with whirling disease.

If you read all the literature and details available on AEP's website and other sources you will realise that the key symptom of an infected fish is the spinal deformity.

These spinal deformities in turn affect nerves and the spinal cord causing the whirling swimming action and blackened tail. Both of these symptoms are only seen in some infected fish, not all, and in fact some infected fish show little to no signs of infection(obviously because of negligible or minor spinal deformation).

You are correct about the juvenile aspect. From what I read it primarily affects fish under 6 months in age but it does affect some older fish as well which in the case of these stocked lakes would mean that if it was present only a portion of the fish population may contract or be affected by the disease.

Fisheries contacted me and are reviewing the photos and will decide if they want to test the fish. They explained some similar deformities can be caused by muscle spasms due to electric shocks. Sounded like they have seen similar cases caused by electro fishing and they believe they can be caused by lightning strikes as well. I am not sure if they use electro fishing in the hatcheries or something similar but they made it sound like this is the cause of some of the deformed stocked trout you see. What happens is the shock causes a severe muscle contraction which actually snaps the spine of the fish. Interesting if that is the case for this fish(lightning survivor?), I am still hoping they will test it but will have to wait and see.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Brian Adams

Because it has a deformed tail. He is getting it checked out.

No kidding? lol. Thanks. My point was it's one indicator, but not a strong indicator as this condition (spinal deformation) has many more common catalysts.

I was asking if there were other signs he though suspicious.

Rav understood and answered my question.

The deformation occurs primarily in early skeletal development and relatively quickly will metastasize into "whirling behaviour". I was just wondering if the thing swirled around or something else.

[Penner]

Originally Posted by RavYak

If you read all the literature and details available on AEP's website and other sources you will realise that the key symptom of an infected fish is the spinal deformity.

These spinal deformities in turn affect nerves and the spinal cord causing the whirling swimming action and blackened tail. Both of these symptoms are only seen in some infected fish, not all, and in fact some infected fish show little to no signs of infection(obviously because of negligible or minor spinal deformation).

You are correct about the juvenile aspect. From what I read it primarily affects fish under 6 months in age but it does affect some older fish as well which in the case of these stocked lakes would mean that if it was present only a portion of the fish population may contract or be affected by the disease.

Fisheries contacted me and are reviewing the photos and will decide if they want to test the fish. They explained some similar deformities can be caused by muscle spasms due to electric shocks. Sounded like they have seen similar cases caused by electro fishing and they believe they can be caused by lightning strikes as well. I am not sure if they use electro fishing in the hatcheries or something similar but they made it sound like this is the cause of some of the deformed stocked trout you see. What happens is the shock causes a severe muscle contraction which actually snaps the spine of the fish. Interesting if that is the case for this fish(lightning survivor?), I am still hoping they will test it but will have to wait and see.

Contacting SRD as a double check probably not a bad thing. I've caught several Perch, Walleye, and Pike over the years with similar tail deformities so I'm still voting it's just that, caused by something else. I hope the test it.

[The Spank]

As a fellow who transplanted from northern Ontario I cannot understand the fascination with stocking rainbows in so many waters that warm up past a rainbows comfort threshold? We had them stocked too but mostly in cold spring fed small kettle lakes or of course the Great Lakes. A fish that would be awesome out here in all these warm water dugouts, ponds and marshy lakes would be Largemouth Bass. They do not need to be stocked continually as they make redds and spawn in almost any type of bottom including clay and mud, they are hearty and withstand(like) warm waters, are a good candidate for catch & release in warm waters and if you have ever eaten them you'd be amazed at what table fare they are?!! I prefer a good feed of largemouth to walleye any day. They are tasty as heck!! When we stocked them in a few dugouts back home the first year we put a few pounds of dace minnows and about 3 dozen Bluegill in each pond, let them establish their first spawn then dumped in two dozen 6" Largemouth. The following summer the Largemouth had spawned and a good little fishery was starting. The Largemouth start feeding on the young Bluegill as they grow larger and the little kids always have a ball catching Bluegill. They keep little ones entertained all day and it was always fun to watch when one would suddenly have a pound or two of Largemouth bending the Disney fishing pole in two!!
And as a sidenote we purchased the Bass and Bluegill from a licensed fish farm. 6" Largemouth were $5/ea and 2" - 3"Bluegill were $3/ ea. It was a very inexpensive investment and a decade later my buddies and their families are still hauling Bass out of their ponds. None has ever had to restock!

[huntsfurfish]

No new species in Alberta. Other than Tiger trout that is.

And I like that direction.

Dont think you will get them to change that.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Penner

Contacting SRD as a double check probably not a bad thing. I've caught several Perch, Walleye, and Pike over the years with similar tail deformities so I'm still voting it's just that, caused by something else. I hope the test it.

They are coming to pick it up tomorrow. Will ask them to keep me in the loop regarding results but who knows.

[The Spank]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

No new species in Alberta. Other than Tiger trout that is.

And I like that direction.

Dont think you will get them to change that.

I find that amusing actually as Brook Trout have been introduced in many of the AB mountain lakes and Brook Trout are native to the east, not west just as rainbows are native to the west but were introduced in eastern waters. Same with Brown Trout and the Tiger is a Brown-Brook Hybrid. Two eastern fish hybridized and stocked in waters from MB to AB? Interesting that you wouldn't want to expand your fishing opportunities? Largemouth are alot of fun to catch and pound for pound are a much stronger fight than a trout. A 4lb Brookie doesn't have the shoulders a 4 pound Largemouth does!!

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

No new species in Alberta. Other than Tiger trout that is.

And I like that direction.

Dont think you will get them to change that.

Hope that helps.

I think you will find more jurisdictions that have gone in that direction lately.

If you want to fish for other species that Alberta does not have, we are free to travel to fish for them elsewhere.

Tigers are unable to reproduce I believe, so no threat.

[Penner]

Originally Posted by The Spank

As a fellow who transplanted from northern Ontario I cannot understand the fascination with stocking rainbows in so many waters that warm up past a rainbows comfort threshold? We had them stocked too but mostly in cold spring fed small kettle lakes or of course the Great Lakes. A fish that would be awesome out here in all these warm water dugouts, ponds and marshy lakes would be Largemouth Bass. They do not need to be stocked continually as they make redds and spawn in almost any type of bottom including clay and mud, they are hearty and withstand(like) warm waters, are a good candidate for catch & release in warm waters and if you have ever eaten them you'd be amazed at what table fare they are?!! I prefer a good feed of largemouth to walleye any day. They are tasty as heck!! When we stocked them in a few dugouts back home the first year we put a few pounds of dace minnows and about 3 dozen Bluegill in each pond, let them establish their first spawn then dumped in two dozen 6" Largemouth. The following summer the Largemouth had spawned and a good little fishery was starting. The Largemouth start feeding on the young Bluegill as they grow larger and the little kids always have a ball catching Bluegill. They keep little ones entertained all day and it was always fun to watch when one would suddenly have a pound or two of Largemouth bending the Disney fishing pole in two!! :sHa_i:
And as a sidenote we purchased the Bass and Bluegill from a licensed fish farm. 6" Largemouth were $5/ea and 2" - 3"Bluegill were $3/ ea. It was a very inexpensive investment and a decade later my buddies and their families are still hauling Bass out of their ponds. None has ever had to restock!

Trout are super cheap to raise at a hatchery. Walleye are extremely costly. In this province fisheries get next to nothing for funding. I would suspect Bass would be similar to Walleye in terms of cost plus they are not Native to the province. I'd rather catch a Rainbow over Bass any day. I do agree however mud Trout taste like goat arse and are C&R for this hombre.

[RavYak]

I received a message from a biologist today and the lab techs came to pick up the fish. It will be a couple weeks at least before they can test it but they said they would let me know results so wait and see.

The biologist thinks it is a very low chance of being whirling disease and I learned a couple interesting things from his message.

Whirling disease can infect all ages of fish but the spinal deformations occur only or at least primarily in young fish before their spine fully develops. The reason being that when they are young the spine relies largely on cartilage vs bone structure when older. The larger fish do still get infected but are for the most part largely unaffected and act primarily as carriers spreading the disease and keeping it alive.

I didn't realize this before as I had seen pictures of older fish on the posters and news reports etc with the similar spinal deformations to my fish. Based on what I was told it seems that those fish must be survivors of whirling disease(or just other deformed fish being used as an example).

The fact that whirling disease only affects the very young fish is very good news for our stocked lakes since most of them are stocked with fish old enough that even if the lake was infected the fish should not be significantly affected. That and the fact that the hatchery that stocks Lower Chain was not one of the infected ones makes him believe it is very unlikely to be whirling disease.

Anyways that was some good news today and now we just wait for the confirmation. I learned a bunch from this and hopefully so do others reading this info.

[Penner]

Cool keep us posted.

[RavYak]

As expected the sores are expected to be due to a parasite(didn't test but have seen it lots). Got some neat info on the parasite.

Trematodes are a parasitic worm that primarily host in snails early in their life cycle then they leave the snails(or snails get eaten) and infect vertebrates such as fish. They also infect humans and are what causes swimmers itch so have a good wash if you go swimming in Lower Chain.

The little worms puncture the skin and then the fish often get infected by bacteria in the water which causes the bumps to swell etc.

So in short the fish are infected with both parasites and bacteria, I will pass on eating them and even handling them for a while lol.

[waterninja]

Trout have been getting summer infections for years. Seems to be escalating to more fish and more waterbodies, esp during hot summers. Always seems to be something.
A biologist gave an explanation on the radio recently that swimmers itch was caused by a bird disease similar to avian bird flu. Spread by bird chit in the water and though it can't harm humans like it does birds (yet), the itch and redness is caused by our bodies fighting of the infection. Guess there are different types of "swimmers itch" you can catch. I can't remember the last time I have swam in an Alberta water body.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Trout have been getting summer infections for years. Seems to be escalating to more fish and more waterbodies, esp during hot summers. Always seems to be something.
A biologist gave an explanation on the radio recently that swimmers itch was caused by a bird disease similar to avian bird flu. Spread by bird chit in the water and though it can't harm humans like it does birds (yet), the itch and redness is caused by our bodies fighting of the infection. Guess there are different types of "swimmers itch" you can catch. I can't remember the last time I have swam in an Alberta water body.

Did a quick study on swimmers itch and snails do play a big role in the cause, as they catch it from the bird droppings first then pass the parasitic larvae on to humans.
I have been using snails for trout bait for years and have never had to deal with itchy hands.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Did a quick study on swimmers itch and snails do play a big role in the cause, as they catch it from the bird droppings first then pass the parasitic larvae on to humans.
I have been using snails for trout bait for years and have never had to deal with itchy hands.

You wouldn't get it from handling snails. The parasite has to penetrate your skin and the parasite first leaves the snails and then latches onto you.

I should have also been a little clearer there is little to no danger in handling fish with these infections and if cooked properly even eating them should be fine. I just choose not to bother as there are other choices of lakes to go to that don't have this problem right now.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by RavYak

You wouldn't get it from handling snails. The parasite has to penetrate your skin and the parasite first leaves the snails and then latches onto you.

I should have also been a little clearer there is little to no danger in handling fish with these infections and if cooked properly even eating them should be fine. I just choose not to bother as there are other choices of lakes to go to that don't have this problem right now.

I was only kidding about itchy hands, but not about using snails for bait.

[thumper]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I received a message from a biologist today and the lab techs came to pick up the fish. It will be a couple weeks at least before they can test it but they said they would let me know results so wait and see.

.

Rav - did you ever get the final results?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by thumper

Rav - did you ever get the final results?

No I never heard anything more.