Furnace Help Required

[waynewjw]

Mother-in-law lives in Calgary. Furnace is likely 40-50 yrs old and the motor stopped yesterday. Furnace tech said the motor housing is cracked, so run it til it totally dies, although it makes a noise. He told her that replacement would run $6000+ as the new furnaces wouldn’t tie into the venting, etc.

Does anyone know of a technician or company that could replace the motor only? At 88 yrs old she can’t afford the $6K but needs to heat her home. Located in NE Calgary.

[35 whelen]

Can't help with the furnace help, but I might be time to get out of the house and move into an apartment, my dad did the same thing about a year ago 89 years old house was getting too expensive to keep up.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Do not recommend using old furnace. Heat exchanger could go any time and your mom does not need toxic CO. Bite the bullet and replace with new high efficiency furnace. Will keep your mom warm and cut her heating bill in half.

[CaberTosser]

PM sent. If its fixable at all, I can do it.

Motors that age are typically belt-drive units, they're still available, just not nearly as common anymore (way back, I'd carry 4 of those just as van stock: 2 x 1/4 hp, 1 x 1/3hp & 1 x 1/2 HP).

If its belt drive, it might also want new blower bearings. A set of roller bearings can save some $ by allowing the motor to draw less amperage.

Hopefully that's what was referred to as being cracked rather than the heat exchanger, there can often be a lot lost in translation

[barbless]

Agreed with the new one. Yes it is very pricey. There could be other problems as stated above. You putting a bandaid on a possible big cut.

[dewalt18]

I’d strongly recommend taking up cabers offer on some repair options, he’s a stand up guy. If it does come down to needing full replacement, feel free to shoot me a PM. I have access to a few models still available at last years pricing, and without seeing it will confidently state I could get it done WELL below the $6k range, including new venting and all associated permits and inspections.

[igorot]

Go with Caber's advice

High efficiency and saving on the heating bill is just an advertisement ploy, the same as carbon tax. Want to save? Upgrade your windows and insulation, regularly cleaning up and maintenance on your furnace.

No, you are not putting a band-aid solution. I have seen more replacements on this high-efficiency furnace because they do not have a part replacement. Basically, they are built to be garbage when they have issues.
.

[dewalt18]

Originally Posted by igorot

Go with Caber's advice

High efficiency and saving on the heating bill is just an advertisement ploy, the same as carbon tax. Want to save? Upgrade your windows and insulation, regularly cleaning up and maintenance on your furnace.

No, you are not putting a band-aid solution. I have seen more replacements on this high-efficiency furnace because they do not have a part replacement. Basically, they are built to be garbage when they have issues.
.

While I agree that they are significantly more complex, they do provide considerable energy savings. Any gas furnace sold in Alberta today will be at least 96% AFUE (annual fuel utilization efficiency) compared to the one in point being an old belt drive so likely also having a draft hood, with an expected efficiency of about 50-60%. Add to that the fact that most modern furnaces (even builder grade) also come with an ecm blower motor, you will also see lower electrical consumption.

[CBintheNorth]

Caber is the man.

But on the rest of the opinions, I guess I'll be one of the odd men out.
I will run my mid-efficiency furnace until something catastrophic happens.
I have a spare motor, a spare thermocouple, and a spare gas valve. I can change it all myself and will more than likely never be without heat for more than an hour should any of those things fail.
No electronics, no extra fans, no big issues.

Actual gas costs are relatively cheap so I tend not to get hung up on efficiency.
Any savings will likely be lost on the first emergency tech call in January @ -30 when the board goes caput..

That's my 2 cents.

[CaberTosser]

When calculating energy savings, some folks overlook that the savings will only be the consumption by the appliance in question, you'll still have the consumption of the water heater & any other appliances (gas range, gas fireplace, garage heater, etc). The many nickel & dime charges on gas bills don't disappear either, all those delivery fees & such remain so no bill is going down 50% when the new furnace is only 20-30% better more efficient & doesn't account for all the gas consumption.

Anyone having to replace an ECM main blower motor post-warranty is going to have a rather pricey pill to swallow. Arguments can be made both ways though, as ECM motors are very electrically efficient.

[barbless]

[QUOTE=igorot;4620757]Go with Caber's advice

High efficiency and saving on the heating bill is just an advertisement ploy, the same as carbon tax. Want to save? Upgrade your windows and insulation, regularly cleaning up and maintenance on your furnace.

What about all your wall plug sockets. Can they be insulated? There are times when the wind blows and they are facing north or close to it, just put your hand over the socket. Probably feel some air. Most people don't realize there is a cold draft from them. Also might depend on where in your home the thermostat control is located. Not sure if ya can even get parts for that old of a furnace but can it be rebuilt?

[barbless]

If the furnace can be refurbished, I have a motor that was rewired and ready to go. It was done at reputable company here in Calgary. It was rewired in '03 and never used. Been sitting in a box in my garage. Been there so long and it is not seized. If the motor is your problem you can have it, free. I did take pics of the labels on it, so it's got the specs. I know not much to nothing about electric motors. I have watched them taken apart, burned, rewired and dipped, put back together and rarely ever no call backs . I still haven't figured out the post pic thing on here but can send pics by text to whoever is in the know. I am also in NE Calgary.
My guess is Caber would know if it would do the job.

[Smokinyotes]

I think my moms furnace was built the same time as the ark. Motor started to squeal so I got all the data and phoned Soper Supply. They had me a new motor out of Calgary the next morning. New is not always better the new high efficiency furnaces can have a lot more go wrong with them than the old ones.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

PM sent. If its fixable at all, I can do it.

Motors that age are typically belt-drive units, they're still available, just not nearly as common anymore (way back, I'd carry 4 of those just as van stock: 2 x 1/4 hp, 1 x 1/3hp & 1 x 1/2 HP).

If its belt drive, it might also want new blower bearings. A set of roller bearings can save some $ by allowing the motor to draw less amperage.

Hopefully that's what was referred to as being cracked rather than the heat exchanger, there can often be a lot lost in translation

This is the answer.

[waynewjw]

So CaberTosser came out to the mother-in-laws place to look at the cracked motor and determined is was to old to replace or not replaceable. As luck would have either Caber or my wife found a small box near the furnace and inside was a brand new motor which the M-I-L had purchase some days/years past. So in went the new motor at minimal cost. Thanks Caber you saved the day.

[Cement Bench]

NOTE JUST KIDDING

he was looking for gun or bow stuff when his eyes caught the motor

JUST KIDDING

he is very honest and always goes out of his way

when u moving to dv buddy

[waynewjw]

Originally Posted by Cement Bench

when u moving to dv buddy

Where the heck is dv?

[CaberTosser]

The spare was an entire factory blower assembly that I can only assume came from a neighbors outgoing furnace as it was also vintage. It was not far from the furnace & partly covered by a reusable Walmart bag. The two units were dated as 1963 & 1964 on the blower housings. Also odd, considering the vintage, was that they were both direct drive rather than belt drive & had the only speed adjustment wiring option terminals I’d ever seen that were in a separate box mounted to the blower, the motor itself only being a two-wire rather than what one would normally see as a 3 or 4 speed direct drive motor.

[TBark]

Good to get assistance from AO,

Older units do have an advantage of common parts like the blower motor.
We’re Running 4 elect heaters today until tomorrow or Thurs as our newer Carrier furnace blower just went.
Not new new, aprx 12 yrs old now.

Zero for parts available in AB, the part is getting hot shot’d in From BC tomorrow, at an estimate of $1200 parts / labor tab.

TBark

[waynewjw]

$1200 sounds expensive. Would a new furnace cost about the same? I’m sure you’ve checked out that avenue. I got lucky that M-I-L had a new old motor sitting in the basement and fit exactly. And thanks for AO posts to help out.

[TBark]

It’s a plastic encased blower with motor.
Even if it were in stock locally, likely $7-$800.
I’m at their mercy unfortunately.

TBark

[funkman]

Originally Posted by TBark

Good to get assistance from AO,

Older units do have an advantage of common parts like the blower motor.
We’re Running 4 elect heaters today until tomorrow or Thurs as our newer Carrier furnace blower just went.
Not new new, aprx 12 yrs old now.

Zero for parts available in AB, the part is getting hot shot’d in From BC tomorrow, at an estimate of $1200 parts / labor tab.

TBark

Every time I worry about my 50 year old furnace, comments like these ease my mind. Just keep an eye on the heat exchanger yearly, the rest is quite easy to replace.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by TBark

It’s a plastic encased blower with motor.
Even if it were in stock locally, likely $7-$800.
I’m at their mercy unfortunately.

TBark

Ahh, that would be your combustion venter motor seeing as you mentioned the plastic case detail. I wondered, as that pricing is low for an ECM main blower motor alone, never mind the labor.

[Drewski Canuck]

It still may make sense to replace the furnace when warm weather is upon us simply because at your mother's age she may at some future point have to re sell.

Odds are the new Home efficiency grants will pay a big part of the upgrade, and it will make the home more marketable for sale.

Alot of Furnace Salesmen would have you believe that a variable drive high efficiency furnace is the only option. It does help to keep the temperature more stable in the home to have the fan blowing at different rates at different times, but in a cold snap, the only fan speed is wide open.

A single stage fan on a high efficiency furnace saves about $1,200 from the top of line DC drive variable speed fan units.

The salesmen are on commission, so shop around when you do not have your back to the wall and the furnace salesmen are looking for work in May.

Of note, alot of the big name furnace installers are either owned by York (Johnson Controls), Carrier or Lennox. Like a car dealer, the Installers only sell the parent company's equipment. Each of the three big brands have slowly bought out competitors but kept the competitor's label, such as "Coleman". It is still a York Furnace, built in Texas at the same factory with the same components. But getting the "off brand" furnace saves alot of money.

Drewski

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

It still may make sense to replace the furnace when warm weather is upon us simply because at your mother's age she may at some future point have to re sell.

Odds are the new Home efficiency grants will pay a big part of the upgrade, and it will make the home more marketable for sale.

Alot of Furnace Salesmen would have you believe that a variable drive high efficiency furnace is the only option. It does help to keep the temperature more stable in the home to have the fan blowing at different rates at different times, but in a cold snap, the only fan speed is wide open.

A single stage fan on a high efficiency furnace saves about $1,200 from the top of line DC drive variable speed fan units.

The salesmen are on commission, so shop around when you do not have your back to the wall and the furnace salesmen are looking for work in May.

Of note, alot of the big name furnace installers are either owned by York (Johnson Controls), Carrier or Lennox. Like a car dealer, the Installers only sell the parent company's equipment. Each of the three big brands have slowly bought out competitors but kept the competitor's label, such as "Coleman". It is still a York Furnace, built in Texas at the same factory with the same components. But getting the "off brand" furnace saves alot of money.

Drewski

Many of the installers for the bigger brands aren’t necessarily owned by those brands, but they do sign dealer contracts with them which prohibit them from selling other HVAC brands. To qualify as dealers, they must also meet sales volume requirements. I could go to Carrier & buy a Bryant furnace (one of their sub-brands), but to buy a Carrier furnace from them I’d need to become a dealer. For a while, Lennox owned Arpi’s, but they have since sold it off.

[crazyperch]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Many of the installers for the bigger brands aren’t necessarily owned by those brands, but they do sign dealer contracts with them which prohibit them from selling other HVAC brands. To qualify as dealers, they must also meet sales volume requirements. I could go to Carrier & buy a Bryant furnace (one of their sub-brands), but to buy a Carrier furnace from them I’d need to become a dealer. For a while, Lennox owned Arpi’s, but they have since sold it off.

Hey Caber, when did Carrier change things that you had to be a Carrier dealer to buy one of their furnaces? is that only for residential companies?

working on the commercial side in sales, I never had an issue buying any brand I wanted as long as we had an account with said supplier.

[88thunderbird]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The spare was an entire factory blower assembly that I can only assume came from a neighbors outgoing furnace as it was also vintage. It was not far from the furnace & partly covered by a reusable Walmart bag. The two units were dated as 1963 & 1964 on the blower housings. Also odd, considering the vintage, was that they were both direct drive rather than belt drive & had the only speed adjustment wiring option terminals I’d ever seen that were in a separate box mounted to the blower, the motor itself only being a two-wire rather than what one would normally see as a 3 or 4 speed direct drive motor.

Caber , other than the heat exchanger are parts still mostly available for a 1970's lennox G8 ?

[neznam]

If your Carrier furnace model number starts with 58MVC , don't bother replacing the inducer. You will most likely need a new secondary heat exchange .

[boone052]

Originally Posted by waynewjw

Where the heck is dv?

Drayton Valley?

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by 88thunderbird

Caber , other than the heat exchanger are parts still mostly available for a 1970's lennox G8 ?

Those parts are still available, the only bits in them are a combination fan & limit switch, a transformer, the gas control valve & the blower motor. It's been interesting seeing the part prices increase over the years, if I didn't know better I'd think I was getting into middle-age or something.