#3 Using a Dog to Track Wounded Game

[Flatlandliver]

Its an interesting proposal but I think limiting the use of dogs to "tracking wounded animals" would lead to lots of abuse and challenges with interpretation by enforcement. If your going to allow dogs for hunting then allow dogs for hunting.

1(1)(o) “hunt” means, subject to subsection (6), with reference to a subject animal,
(i) shoot at, harass or worry,
(ii) chase, pursue, follow after or on the trail of, search for, flush, stalk or lie in wait for,
(iii) capture or wilfully injure or kill,
(iv) attempt to capture, injure or kill, or
(v) assist another person to hunt in a manner specified in subclause (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) while that other person is so hunting;

With this definition of hunting, using dogs to track big game is illegal in Alberta. There are plenty of laws that don't make sense to some but the way to change things is by lobbying through your local or provincial associations not just ignoring the law.

I have seen dogs used with success on moose in Ontario, not sure how many guys deer hunt with them but their regs say;

"All dogs to be used to hunt deer, moose or black bear must be licensed. There is no limit on the number of dogs that may be licensed and used. Dogs may not run at large in an area inhabited by deer, moose, elk, caribou or black bear during the closed season. Dogs may not be used to hunt elk."

IR Mike
"I pretty much agree with whatever cat posts."

I agree but Cat needs a proof reader some days although his autocorrect can be hilarious.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by LKILR

Maybe some of us need to practice making better shots or not shooting at all. I have been hunting for 30 years and I have only lost two big game animals that I wounded. If people are allowed to use dogs to track they might be tempted to take any shot knowing the dog can finish the job for them. It's just another excuse for a hunter to pull the trigger.

So would it not have been a good thing to be able to use a dog to try to find those two animals that you wounded and lost? Having the option of using a dog to track a big game animal would not effect my decisions as to which shots I choose to take, but it would be nice to have the option in the event that an animal can't be located, as happened to you twice in your hunting career. I certainly wouldn't purchase a dog for that purpose, but if I had a suitable dog, as I soon will have, I would certainly take the time to train him for that purpose.

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So would it not have been a good thing to be able to use a dog to try to find those two animals that you wounded and lost? Having the option of using a dog to track a big game animal would not effect my decisions as to which shots I choose to take, but it would be nice to have the option in the event that an animal can't be located, as happened to you twice in your hunting career. I certainly wouldn't purchase a dog for that purpose, but if I had a suitable dog, as I soon will have, I would certainly take the time to train him for that purpose.

I guess it would have been nice to try and track them animals down. I regret losing them but in doing so I taught myself that I would rather pass a marginal shot than go through the guilt of having an animal suffer. There will always be another oppurtunity down the trail. If dogs are used to find expired game then it may be ok with me but if they are used to chase wounded animals then we might just as well open the season for all hunting with dogs and I personally will retire as a hunter. Its just not fair chase .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by LKILR

I guess it would have been nice to try and track them animals down. I regret losing them but in doing so I taught myself that I would rather pass a marginal shot than go through the guilt of having an animal suffer. There will always be another oppurtunity down the trail. If dogs are used to find expired game then it may be ok with me but if they are used to chase wounded animals then we might just as well open the season for all hunting with dogs and I personally will retire as a hunter. Its just not fair chase .

If the tracking dog is on a leash, he won't be doing much chasing.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by LKILR

I guess it would have been nice to try and track them animals down. I regret losing them but in doing so I taught myself that I would rather pass a marginal shot than go through the guilt of having an animal suffer. There will always be another oppurtunity down the trail. If dogs are used to find expired game then it may be ok with me but if they are used to chase wounded animals then we might just as well open the season for all hunting with dogs and I personally will retire as a hunter. Its just not fair chase .

You do realize that hounds have been used to run deer, boar, moose, coyotes, foxes and many other animals in Canada and other parts of the World for centuries.
There are dogs bred for just that.
Just because fair chase does not fall into some of our beliefs does not mean that it should be gospel.
At one time we could run coyotes with dogs in Alberta as well.
I have legally hunted behind hounds and it is not a given that animals are going to run amuck, be shot every time and scattered to the four winds.

Cat

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Flatlandliver

With this definition of hunting, using dogs to track big game is illegal in Alberta. There are plenty of laws that don't make sense to some but the way to change things is by lobbying through your local or provincial associations not just ignoring the law.



IR Mike
"I pretty much agree with whatever cat posts."

I agree but Cat needs a proof reader some days although his autocorrect can be hilarious.

The use of pack Dogs and tracking dogs has been lobbied before and will continue to be lobbied .
As far as my proof reading goes, as soon as us dyslexics untie and we will rile this World!
Cat

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The use of pack Dogs and tracking dogs has been lobbied before and will continue to be lobbied .
As far as my proof reading goes, as soon as us dyslexics untie and we will rile this World!
Cat

ur killing me!

[winger7mm]

It blows me away how many people claim "abuse" of the system if this were allowed. The guys that say that, can I ask you a question?? Have you EVER hunted behind a dog? If you say "no" sorry your opinion is invalid.

Its comical actually..... The guys that "abuse" the system are already out abusing the system as it is. I dont think my dog has ever kicked up a deer while we were bird hunting that I woulda been able to shoot, either with bow or rifle. And what are you gonna do.... Run deer across 17 properties that you only have permission to on one??

Not to often does a deer drop in its tracks. Whether its a quick track job or a long one. I should be able to head back to the truck and get my dog then head back to the shooting site and find the deer. Sure would make it a pile easier to look at night. Not only that but you cant just pick up a puppy throw it on a blood trail and tell em "hunt it up". ALOT of work and time goes into training a dog for hunting.

Saying that hunters will take more marginal shots because the dog can do the work in finding it..... Thats funny too, I dont know ANY hunter that prefers a long tracking job compared to a bang flop. Whether a dog is being used or not, a quick kill is what we ALL strive for, sometimes it doesnt happen.

I also find it funny that no-one has actually said WHY its illegal, quoting the regs, good job but that doesnt answer the why. Personally I dont see any problems at all, having a track dog on a long lead for tracking wounded game. I also dont see a problem with a pack dog being used unleashed.

I am all for the use of dogs!!! Lets make er happen (if we can) lol

[rednuck]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

I also find it funny that no-one has actually said WHY its illegal, quoting the regs, good job but that doesnt answer the why.

That's easy, its illegal because the regs say it is. Law makers don't need to add their reasoning with the law. We would have to hunt down the wildlife act amendment that it was introduced in, then find that member of parliament that introduced it and show up at his house. The person who thought this was a good idea might not even be alive.

[HoytCRX32]

At the very least could this be applied for bowhunting only? Can't see a bowhunter using a dog to hunt big game. As well, animals shot with a bow (I'm guessing here...no stats) may go farther after shot than most shot with a gun. Just tossing it out.

[Erik]

In provinces where hunting big game is permitted with a dog it is usually a requirement to have the dog on a leash.

I think this is a rational way to permit what ideal (tracking wounded animals) and keep out what isn't ideal (dogs chasing uninjured big game). If you've never wandered in the woods with leashed dog then I can tell you it is extremely cumbersome and something I'd only ever be inclined to do if I was pursuing already injured animals that I could not locate. I'd much rather hunt on my own two feet than hunt with dog on lead, but tracking a wounded animal would be nice with a leashed dog.

Plus, if enforcement is already an issue, why wouldn't people who want to run dogs just run dogs. How would a leashed dog law change the enforcement aspect? People who are inclined to break laws will break them and honest people will still be honest.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Erik

In provinces where hunting big game is permitted with a dog it is usually a requirement to have the dog on a leash.

I think this is a rational way to permit what ideal (tracking wounded animals) and keep out what isn't ideal (dogs chasing uninjured big game). If you've never wandered in the woods with leashed dog then I can tell you it is extremely cumbersome and something I'd only ever be inclined to do if I was pursuing already injured animals that I could not locate. I'd much rather hunt on my own two feet than hunt with dog on lead, but tracking a wounded animal would be nice with a leashed dog.

Plus, if enforcement is already an issue, why wouldn't people who want to run dogs just run dogs. How would a leashed dog law change the enforcement aspect? People who are inclined to break laws will break them and honest people will still be honest.

Anywhere I hunted with hounds for big game they were not leashed, and the law did not require them to be leashed.
That was many years ago however.

Cat

[elkhunter11]

In provinces where hunting big game is permitted with a dog it is usually a requirement to have the dog on a leash.

Which provinces only allow dogs to be used to hunt big game, if the dogs are on a leash? I am curious, as I am not up to date on the regulations in Eastern Canada.

[brazeau]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

It blows me away how many people claim "abuse" of the system if this were allowed. The guys that say that, can I ask you a question?? Have you EVER hunted behind a dog? If you say "no" sorry your opinion is invalid.

So with your rationale, the following is valid, "Have you EVER driven while under the influence? If you say "no" sorry your opinion is invalid". Give your head a shake, any "opinion" is as valid as yours regardless of what level of experience or whether you agree with the opinion or not.

[Jadham]

BC allows dogs for big game if they are leashed.

And yeah my dogs have flushed out deer and even a moose while pheasant hunting in coulees north of Brooks. They were off leash and I called them off right away, which should be easy enough to do with a well trained dog on an ecollar. I don't see what the big deal is... these animals run away/avoid wild canids on a frequent basis.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Jadham

BC allows dogs for big game if they are leashed.

And yeah my dogs have flushed out deer and even a moose while pheasant hunting in coulees north of Brooks. They were off leash and I called them off right away, which should be easy enough to do with a well trained dog on an ecollar. I don't see what the big deal is... these animals run away/avoid wild canids on a frequent basis.

B.C. allows dogs to be used for some big game, even if they aren't leashed. As well, you can use pack dogs to hunt big game, and they don't have to be on a leash.

[Jadham]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

B.C. allows dogs to be used for some big game, even if they aren't leashed. As well, you can use pack dogs to hunt big game, and they don't have to be on a leash.

I must say I am envious of the big game opportunities and methods allowed next door for BC residents and kick myself for not taking advantage of it when I lived there.

[Lefty-Canuck]

In Ontario they use dogs to drive deer and they use them to hunt coyotes, no leash required.

LC

[super7mag]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

It blows me away how many people claim "abuse" of the system if this were allowed. The guys that say that, can I ask you a question?? Have you EVER hunted behind a dog? If you say "no" sorry your opinion is invalid.

Its comical actually..... The guys that "abuse" the system are already out abusing the system as it is. I dont think my dog has ever kicked up a deer while we were bird hunting that I woulda been able to shoot, either with bow or rifle. And what are you gonna do.... Run deer across 17 properties that you only have permission to on one??

Not to often does a deer drop in its tracks. Whether its a quick track job or a long one. I should be able to head back to the truck and get my dog then head back to the shooting site and find the deer. Sure would make it a pile easier to look at night. Not only that but you cant just pick up a puppy throw it on a blood trail and tell em "hunt it up". ALOT of work and time goes into training a dog for hunting.

Saying that hunters will take more marginal shots because the dog can do the work in finding it..... Thats funny too, I dont know ANY hunter that prefers a long tracking job compared to a bang flop. Whether a dog is being used or not, a quick kill is what we ALL strive for, sometimes it doesnt happen.

I also find it funny that no-one has actually said WHY its illegal, quoting the regs, good job but that doesnt answer the why. Personally I dont see any problems at all, having a track dog on a long lead for tracking wounded game. I also dont see a problem with a pack dog being used unleashed.

I am all for the use of dogs!!! Lets make er happen (if we can) lol

That pretty much sums it up nicely ! I could agree more and it would just make sense.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by LKILR

Its just not fair chase .

Here's the thing though... there is no universally accepted definition for something called "fair chase". It's a man-made artificial concept that is understood differently from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, situation to situation, and hunter to hunter. It's not fair chase in your view if I use my dog to find and flush a deer, but it is fine (I'm assuming here) if I use my dog to find and flush a pheasant on the same land at the same time of year.

As I said before, some jurisdiction choose to bring in rules that are reflective of long-standing local tradition, or simply what the regulator at the time thinks is appropriate. Doesn't make it right or wrong. But we often treat the rules we grow up with as absolutes and are aghast when someone suggests something like dogs, bait, or night hunting, etc etc, things that are common in other jurisdictions. And w can probably do some things here in Alberta that aren't allowed in other jurisdictions.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Here's the thing though... there is no universally accepted definition for something called "fair chase". It's a man-made artificial concept that is understood differently from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, situation to situation, and hunter to hunter. It's not fair chase in your view if I use my dog to find and flush a deer, but it is fine (I'm assuming here) if I use my dog to find and flush a pheasant on the same land at the same time of year.

As I said before, some jurisdiction choose to bring in rules that are reflective of long-standing local tradition, or simply what the regulator at the time thinks is appropriate. Doesn't make it right or wrong. But we often treat the rules we grow up with as absolutes and are aghast when someone suggests something like dogs, bait, or night hunting, etc etc, things that are common in other jurisdictions. And w can probably do some things here in Alberta that aren't allowed in other jurisdictions.

Yup. Who decides what fair chase is? Kinda like a traditional bow hunter telling someone with a scoped magnum that he's not doing it fair chase.

[Canukanuk]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Yup. Who decides what fair chase is? Kinda like a traditional bow hunter telling someone with a scoped magnum that he's not doing it fair chase.

You wouldn't argue the bow hunters position would you?

Nothing wrong with having a dog to recover wounded game. Just give the authorities a call and go. It's actually your responsibility.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by Canukanuk

You wouldn't argue the bow hunters position would you?

Nothing wrong with having a dog to recover wounded game. Just give the authorities a call and go. It's actually your responsibility.

Nope. Someone would have to be a Raven lunatic!

[Canukanuk]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Nope. Someone would have to be a Raven lunatic!

Good for you, I didn't you were a lunatic, ravin or otherwise

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by Canukanuk

You wouldn't argue the bow hunters position would you?

Nothing wrong with having a dog to recover wounded game. Just give the authorities a call and go. It's actually your responsibility.

Other then its illegal lol

[albertabighorn]

It would be abused and you know someone would shoot a dog that had gotten loose or was chasing game.

[elkhunter11]

I inquired to AEP as to the legality of having my dog accompany me in the vehicle while hunting big game. My e-mail imquirey

I know that there is a regulation against being accompanied by a dog while hunting big game in Alberta, but is it legal if the dog remains in the vehicle at all times while I am hunting big game?

Below is the answer from AEP, along with the person's name and number.

Hello,



As long as your dog remains in the vehicle at all times then you may have your dog accompany you.



Kind Regards,



Dianne Gorday Information Officer

Environment and Parks

9920-108 St Main Floor GWL Building

Edmonton, AB T5K 2M4



Ph: 780-427-4795

Dianne.Gorday@gov.ab.ca

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by brazeau

So with your rationale, the following is valid, "Have you EVER driven while under the influence? If you say "no" sorry your opinion is invalid". Give your head a shake, any "opinion" is as valid as yours regardless of what level of experience or whether you agree with the opinion or not.

So with your rationale, getting a second opinion for brain surgery from the Canadian Tire mechanic would be as valid as getting one from a brain surgeon?

The fact is, some opinions are more valid than others.

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by albertabighorn

It would be abused and you know someone would shoot a dog that had gotten loose or was chasing game.

Dogs already got shot for running game. If it was going to be abused... Then they are already doing it.... I don't get why people cant see that..... Abusing the system happens big time already, Allowing the use of track dogs wouldn't change that at all...