Under subscribe tag pressure?

[Outdoorfanatic]

Just thinking about the under subscribed tags and wondering why in the last couple of years there's been so much more demand for the left overs? According to regs page 26 our big game numbers are up roughly 10 000 over last year and the over all population in the province hasn't changed much in the last few years. Yet the number of tags purchased has increased by 37% over last year? Just finding in interesting that now we have longer seasons with more cow elk tags then ever and they used to be left right into the last of the January seasons, but not now. Also Moose in 532 which is pretty much exclusively a fly in hunt is also all snapped up.

Is it a case of water fowlers starting to hunt late season elk or is it guys getting a case of wish list fever with no real intention or understanding of what it takes to do those hunts?

[DiabeticKripple]

lots of people out of work and looking for some cheaper meat than the grocery store

[elkhunter11]

When people realize just how isolated and difficult/expensive to access some of those wmus are, they just won't bother purchasing the tags.

[IBEX]

The only way wild game is cheaper than store bought is when your non-hunting friends and relatives raid your freezer.

Buying under subscribed tags doesn't use up your priority points nor does it require any. It is mostly new hunters looking to get in on the action early without thinking it through or a "just in case" tag for some who may be already hunting the area for some other specie. For example, school mate, new to hunting, lives in calgary and is still struggling to tell the differences between a WT and a muley bought a tag for January Antless Elk in WMU 359.

[play.soccer]

Out of work people with nothing but time on their hands.

[Luckwell]

Originally Posted by IBEX

The only way wild game is cheaper than store bought is when your non-hunting friends and relatives raid your freezer.



Buying under subscribed tags doesn't use up your priority points nor does it require any. It is mostly new hunters looking to get in on the action early without thinking it through or a "just in case" tag for some who may be already hunting the area for some other specie. For example, school mate, new to hunting, lives in calgary and is still struggling to tell the differences between a WT and a muley bought a tag for January Antless Elk in WMU 359.

Yes and no. I was thinking of purchasing a antlerless mule deer for my zone for the cheap sausage and jerky. My kids devour it! It would cost me the tag, 1 bullet and a 5 min walk from my barn. So the cheap meat is a reality for the local guys in the WMU. I choose not to because I feel that the numbers are down. And when a fella from who know where pulls up with an undersubscribed tag asking for permission to hunt on my land I will say no. The government may figure my area needs less deer, but I disagree. The few bales I loose very year are worth it.


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[Knot Rite]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

lots of people out of work and looking for some cheaper meat than the grocery store

Seriously? Never knew game meat was cheaper.

Bobby

[Outdoorfanatic]

Some out of work with time might be a factor I suppose. But 532 moose hunt is about as pricey as our alberta hunts come. And page 26 of the reg suggests that the amount of tags actually purchased is up 37% which is huge so it's more then guys just taking a free grab at left overs. They've actually spent money. Don't know if they've actually hunted or how hard but they've bought tags.

Wish there was a way to slow the under subscribe tag grab down and make people really weigh the cost (dollars and effort) to complete a hunt. Like was previously mentioned, may be able to grab tags but if the land owners are not accommodating than its a waste. I'm just thinking that some of us have a good relationship with our landowners and to have the WMU over run with to much excitement may limit opportunity for all. Also wonder if the government needs money bad enough that they base their revenue needed on the basis of percentage of failed hunts that a WMU can risk? So more tags more money but limited effect on the wildlife since most hunts fail to harvest. Hope I'm wrong.

[Luckwell]

Originally Posted by Outdoorfanatic

Some out of work with time might be a factor I suppose. But 532 moose hunt is about as pricey as our alberta hunts come. And page 26 of the reg suggests that the amount of tags actually purchased is up 37% which is huge so it's more then guys just taking a free grab at left overs. They've actually spent money. Don't know if they've actually hunted or how hard but they've bought tags.



Wish there was a way to slow the under subscribe tag grab down and make people really weigh the cost (dollars and effort) to complete a hunt. Like was previously mentioned, may be able to grab tags but if the land owners are not accommodating than its a waste. I'm just thinking that some of us have a good relationship with our landowners and to have the WMU over run with to much excitement may limit opportunity for all. Also wonder if the government needs money bad enough that they base their revenue needed on the basis of percentage of failed hunts that a WMU can risk? So more tags more money but limited effect on the wildlife since most hunts fail to harvest. Hope I'm wrong.

Well said.



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[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by Knot Rite

Seriously? Never knew game meat was cheaper.

Bobby

it can be done quite cheap if you want.

couple hundred on a gun and scope, another hundred or two on gear, and a hundred in fuel and tags and you can go shoot a deer.

the next year you just need tags and fuel.

[300magman]

Originally Posted by Luckwell

Yes and no. I was thinking of purchasing a antlerless mule deer for my zone for the cheap sausage and jerky. My kids devour it! It would cost me the tag, 1 bullet and a 5 min walk from my barn. So the cheap meat is a reality for the local guys in the WMU. I choose not to because I feel that the numbers are down. And when a fella from who know where pulls up with an undersubscribed tag asking for permission to hunt on my land I will say no. The government may figure my area needs less deer, but I disagree. The few bales I loose very year are worth it.


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Wish there were a lot more like you

[Redfrog]

Could be more guys not working have time now to hunt. In short supply when things are busy.

[Outdoorfanatic]

Our harvest reports give the government all the percentages they need to calculate acceptable risk from hunting pressure on a WMU and consequently it also allows them to over sell the hunt based on failure to harvest rates for that particular season and WMU. Mean while what we're told is that our harvest reports are critical for the biologist for managing the wildlife population and setting optima carrying capacity for the WMU. For our willingness to participate in the harvest reports we get a lottery chance at winning for the following year either a Mule Deer, Elk, or Moose tag. One of us will get that choice. Mind you there's no where were such an award is posted and I've never heard of anyone getting awarded this extra tag, so I guess we're to trust that its real? Assuming the extra tag exists, its less likely to win that extra tag for your harvest report than it is winning the Bison tag. There was 15000 plus of us who applied for the Bison this year. Page 26 of the regs states there are 119000 of us who hunt big game. If 30% of us fill out one harvest report that's more than double the amount who applied for 125 Bison tags. Bison draw this year was a 0.8% chance of drawing.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

it can be done quite cheap if you want.

couple hundred on a gun and scope, another hundred or two on gear, and a hundred in fuel and tags and you can go shoot a deer.

the next year you just need tags and fuel.

In some cases yes, in some cases no, just getting into wmu 532 involves more expenses/gear than entire hunts in most locations.

[Big Bull]

In the case of WMU 532, I think most of the people that "reserved" one of the 135 undersubscribed moose tags, have no clue of the access to that zone, or don't have any intention of actually purchasing the tag. I've been buying undersubscribed tags for there for 16 years straight, and last year was the first time ever they all sold out for that WMU. The charter pilots in that area did not see any increase in business from those extra 135 tags; in fact, they had cancellations from people that had bookings, but missed out on the undersubscribed tags. I would love to know how many of these tags actually get purchased.

[West O'5]

Easy fix for this reserving a tag and not purchasing it nonsense....no more RESERVING undersubscribed tags!Have your credit card ready when you call/log in online.....people would think twice and even 3x long and hard about how much effort and expense is required to hunt these moose zones if they were forced to buck up on the spot and pay for a tag they may never even attempt to use.
BigBull here^^ is a prime example of how this reservation system is failing miserably.You have to cancel your hunt plans and a flight because you can't get a tag....meanwhile it's a safe bet that close to 1/2 of those "reserved" tags won't even be purchased,let alone any attempt to fill them.
Economic loss.....charter businesses are losing revenue from cancelled flights,govt is losing revenue from un purchased tags.....should be an easy sell to govt to amend the system.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Easy fix for this reserving a tag and not purchasing it nonsense....no more RESERVING undersubscribed tags!Have your credit card ready when you call/log in online.....people would think twice and even 3x long and hard about how much effort and expense is required to hunt these moose zones if they were forced to buck up on the spot and pay for a tag they may never even attempt to use.
BigBull here^^ is a prime example of how this reservation system is failing miserably.You have to cancel your hunt plans and a flight because you can't get a tag....meanwhile it's a safe bet that close to 1/2 of those "reserved" tags won't even be purchased,let alone any attempt to fill them.
Economic loss.....charter businesses are losing revenue from cancelled flights,govt is losing revenue from un purchased tags.....should be an easy sell to govt to amend the system.

Don;t use the cancelled charter flights as an argument, the people that booked those charters in the first place could have drawn those tags if they were really serious about going. Remember, these are undersubscribed tags, everyone that applied to draw received their tag, these are leftovers.

On the other hand, I agree with paying for any tag as soon as you draw/reserve it

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Don;t use the cancelled charter flights as an argument, the people that booked those charters in the first place could have drawn those tags if they were really serious about going. Remember, these are undersubscribed tags, everyone that applied to draw received their tag, these are leftovers.

On the other hand, I agree with paying for any tag as soon as you draw/reserve it

Beg to differ,It's a legit argument.....yes,they "could have" applied in 532 for example,but likely they are building priority to use elsewhere,and there's nothing wrong with that,but again,to use BigBull above as example....if he's hunted 532 for 16 consecutive years while building priority....more power to him,at least he buys the tag,and it's a chitty deal that he won't get a tag nor support local business because 50% or more of the tags were hogged up by *******es that won't even buy them once they realise what they've signed on for.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Beg to differ,It's a legit argument.....yes,they "could have" applied in 532 for example,but likely they are building priority to use elsewhere,and there's nothing wrong with that,but again,to use BigBull above as example....if he's hunted 532 for 16 consecutive years while building priority....more power to him,at least he buys the tag,and it's a chitty deal that he won't get a tag nor support local business because 50% or more of the tags were hogged up by *******es that won't even buy them once they realise what they've signed on for.

A person that hunted wmu 532 for 16 consecutive years with supplementary tags while building priority has used the system to advantage. Good for him, but if he didn't get his supplementary tag this year, he has nobody to blame but himself. His luck simply ran out. The people that purchased the supplementary tags this year also played the system, and if they don't purchase the tags, they are doing so, because the system allows them to.

I am all for paying for every tag as soon as you draw/reserve it, but that isn't the way the system currently works, and people are going to use the system to their advantage, unless the system is changed.

[Phshrmn]

Does anyone on this thread know how many 532 tags are purchased out of the total awarded including undersubscribed?

I suspect some of the comments here underestimate the intelligence of most hunters who get undersubscribed licenses. I think we know very well where the wmu is and what it takes to get there. What I don't know is why anyone is complaining since all applicants were awarded. Surely those of us who failed to draw anything we wanted have the right to try to get an undersubscribed in an area we wouldn't normally wish to hunt.

No one earns priority points simply by hunting an area for 16 years prior. I'm not sympathetic.

Give other hunters the benefit of at least your intelligence before flaming them for getting an undersubscribed 532 moose. Seriously.

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[JPHunting]

Isn't your population increasing?

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[West O'5]

All I'm saying is that the system is flawed as is.I would bet my favorite rifle that if it was required that undersubscribed tags be paid for immediately online Aug.17,you would not see 700,800,900(?) Boreal zone moose tags "sell out" in 10 minutes,and by "sell out" of course what I really mean is "reserved" and often as not never purchased.

[Luckwell]

We have lost antlered archery mule and whitetail supp tags in the last 4 years. But we have undersubscribed mule doe tags...... Makes no sense. I'm willing to bet my counts don't match theres.


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[shedcrazy]

I doubt anyone is underestimating the intelligence of people buying or reserving tags to an area they have no idea how to get into to. We have saw the posts on AO and FB over the past few years about that zone. The 2015 hunter harvest survey even shows that 10 animals were harvested and a 33% success rate in 532. Well that adds up to 30 tags out of 150. I also know the pilots up there and there was no increase in bookings considering that all the tags were reserved last year for the first time ever (by at least a 100 tags) and there were hunters turned away that could have went. Not all had planned on undersubscribed (booked ahead of time) but when work or life had allowed them to get away there were no tags left. So not only is it a selfish move to take tags away from other hunters it does affect people's income. Fellow outdoorsmen/supporters of hunting and hunters. People just get all excited on undersubscribed day and go with plan a,plan b, etc..then look into. There is no way in hell 150 people are moose hunting in 532. IMO anyone that does not buy an undersubscribed tag that they reserved should not be allowed to reserve another tag in the future.
Anyways I look forward to our hunt in 532 and maybe seeing Bigbull up there...just need to plan for all the extra hundreds of others up there this year. Hope the traffic isn't too bad

[Outdoorfanatic]

Originally Posted by JPHunting

Isn't your population increasing?

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Answer is no. Provincial population in last few years has only marginally increased. Numbers of big game hunters 2014 -2015 increased by 10 000 hunters. Which doesn't reflect a 37% increase in licences sold. Note licences includes upland game bird all the way to 532 moose.

My concern is that the government is using our harvest reports and more specifically the failure rates reported to over sell hunts. You might say so what I still got my tag. Well if added pressure forces animals to be nocturnal, and annoys land owners then hunts will become harder to fill tags. Meanwhile the bios tell us that they are increasing tags because they want to see more animals harvested. Northern WMU on cow elk for example; they say their intention is too stay ahead of the curve and prevent another Suffield.

Sounds good but once upon a time mule deer does were a value added hunt by allowing for two to be harvested in those WMUs that had "over population". Now in some like WMU 148 they issue 500 plus tags all singles and restrict the access to public land by shortening the season to Wed-Sat only hunting. Why? All because the ranchers decades ago pushed to limit the hunting. Keep in mind the ranches don't own the land, its leased public grass land. So my question is why not cut those tags in half and give some value back to the hunter by allowing it to be a double tag limit draw harvest. And at the same time allow us to hunt public land the entire month just like the elk hunters and deer hunters throughout the rest of the province.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Phshrmn

Does anyone on this thread know how many 532 tags are purchased out of the total awarded including undersubscribed?

I suspect some of the comments here underestimate the intelligence of most hunters who get undersubscribed licenses. I think we know very well where the wmu is and what it takes to get there. What I don't know is why anyone is complaining since all applicants were awarded. Surely those of us who failed to draw anything we wanted have the right to try to get an undersubscribed in an area we wouldn't normally wish to hunt.

No one earns priority points simply by hunting an area for 16 years prior. I'm not sympathetic.

Give other hunters the benefit of at least your intelligence before flaming them for getting an undersubscribed 532 moose. Seriously.

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I don't think anyone is underestimating anyone's intelligence here. I live right near a zone where many undersubscribed moose tags are awarded every year. About 90% of the hunters I see out there are from down south, driving around looking in vain for a road long enough to road hunt and asking anyone they can where the moose are. The fact that there aren't many locals hunting out there aught to at least clue them into the fact that they are going to need to get out of their truck to have even a slight chance of getting a moose.

Another endearing trait of this crowd is that many of them tend to think that northern Alberta must still be the wild west and rules won't be enforced. Seen a number of crazy things over the years but the best had to be a guy who had his truck parked right on highwy 88 and was lining up on a little white tail doe about 50 yards down the highway that was also standing right on the pavement... I honked and the deer ran off, should have let him shoot it and then called F&W.

[Flight01]

In 2010 I believe it was that I actually did a fly in fishing and moose hunt g trip in 532. Rough country with pockets of moose. I found little sign but had a blast fishing and learning how to call moose. It was undersubscribed with a hundred or more tags still remaining in September.
Area 532 tags went up in demand right around the time that the archery general moose tags in the farmland went to draw....
Connect the dots....
Seems suspicious.

[Big Bull]

Originally Posted by West O'5

Easy fix for this reserving a tag and not purchasing it nonsense....no more RESERVING undersubscribed tags!Have your credit card ready when you call/log in online.....people would think twice and even 3x long and hard about how much effort and expense is required to hunt these moose zones if they were forced to buck up on the spot and pay for a tag they may never even attempt to use.
BigBull here^^ is a prime example of how this reservation system is failing miserably.You have to cancel your hunt plans and a flight because you can't get a tag....meanwhile it's a safe bet that close to 1/2 of those "reserved" tags won't even be purchased,let alone any attempt to fill them.
Economic loss.....charter businesses are losing revenue from cancelled flights,govt is losing revenue from un purchased tags.....should be an easy sell to govt to amend the system.

No worries, I saw this coming after last year, and used my priority 13 this year to ensure that I got a tag.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

A person that hunted wmu 532 for 16 consecutive years with supplementary tags while building priority has used the system to advantage. Good for him, but if he didn't get his supplementary tag this year, he has nobody to blame but himself. His luck simply ran out. The people that purchased the supplementary tags this year also played the system, and if they don't purchase the tags, they are doing so, because the system allows them to.
I am all for paying for every tag as soon as you draw/reserve it, but that isn't the way the system currently works, and people are going to use the system to their advantage, unless the system is changed.

I did not get my "supplementary" this year, just drew the tag, as I saw the writing on the wall after last years undersubscribed show.

Originally Posted by Phshrmn

Does anyone on this thread know how many 532 tags are purchased out of the total awarded including undersubscribed?

I suspect some of the comments here underestimate the intelligence of most hunters who get undersubscribed licenses. I think we know very well where the wmu is and what it takes to get there. What I don't know is why anyone is complaining since all applicants were awarded. Surely those of us who failed to draw anything we wanted have the right to try to get an undersubscribed in an area we wouldn't normally wish to hunt.

No one earns priority points simply by hunting an area for 16 years prior. I'm not sympathetic.

Give other hunters the benefit of at least your intelligence before flaming them for getting an undersubscribed 532 moose. Seriously.

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Zero sympathy asked for or required. In fact we have been trying to encourage other moose hunting enthusiast to do the same as us since we started going there.

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I doubt anyone is underestimating the intelligence of people buying or reserving tags to an area they have no idea how to get into to. We have saw the posts on AO and FB over the past few years about that zone. The 2015 hunter harvest survey even shows that 10 animals were harvested and a 33% success rate in 532. Well that adds up to 30 tags out of 150. I also know the pilots up there and there was no increase in bookings considering that all the tags were reserved last year for the first time ever (by at least a 100 tags) and there were hunters turned away that could have went. Not all had planned on undersubscribed (booked ahead of time) but when work or life had allowed them to get away there were no tags left. So not only is it a selfish move to take tags away from other hunters it does affect people's income. Fellow outdoorsmen/supporters of hunting and hunters. People just get all excited on undersubscribed day and go with plan a,plan b, etc..then look into. There is no way in hell 150 people are moose hunting in 532. IMO anyone that does not buy an undersubscribed tag that they reserved should not be allowed to reserve another tag in the future.
Anyways I look forward to our hunt in 532 and maybe seeing Bigbull up there...just need to plan for all the extra hundreds of others up there this year. Hope the traffic isn't too bad

We are flying out early on Sep. 16, hope to see you guys up there! Are you the guys on Marty Lake?

...and which one of you guys posted this ad?
http://www.kijiji.ca/v-buy-sell-othe...ationFlag=true

[smith88]

Originally Posted by Luckwell

We have lost antlered archery mule and whitetail supp tags in the last 4 years. But we have undersubscribed mule doe tags...... Makes no sense. I'm willing to bet my counts don't match theres.


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Maybe they see a poor ratio of bucks to does (too many does) which hurts the buck population because they use up all their fat stores trying to breed does which leaves them in poor condition for the winter.

I would like to see the tag holder be automatically billed for all draw tags if drawn.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by smith88

Maybe they see a poor ratio of bucks to does (too many does) which hurts the buck population because they use up all their fat stores trying to breed does which leaves them in poor condition for the winter.

I would like to see the tag holder be automatically billed for all draw tags if drawn.

Most likely this exactly the reason.Everybody wants to hunt the big trophy bucks,and there's little hunting pressure nor demand for mule doe tags.
I don't claim to be any kind of authority on mule deer breeding behavior,but I do know for certain that with WTs,a 1:2 ratio of buck:does is considered ideal,with 1:3 being acceptable.Once you get into ratios of 1:5 and greater,you run into all sorts of problems with late bred does,unbred does,2nd and 3rd ruts,and the resulting late born fawns,which leads to lower pre-winter weights,higher winter mortality,retarded antler growth in 1.5 yr old bucks and on and on,with bucks running themselves ragged into Dec and even Jan,depleting fat reserves when they should be recovering from the rut,which in turn leads to higher winter mort rates amongst mature bucks.
Again,I don't profess to be any sort of authority on MD,only I "suspect" that perhaps with MD being a more gregarious/herd oriented species,that perhaps a single MD buck is a able to service a larger harem of does then a WT buck,which realistically will only breed 2-3 does max during the "proper",relatively short window of 5-6 days when 90% of WT does will come into estrous in late Nov.