Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[Elko]

Some of those montana sheep have history in Alberta, 1922 transplant from Banff, so some of the genetics are the same.
Interesting read found here http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=39746, not had time to read it all but it has some insight on what other juristictions are doing.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ive said this before and no one has answered. how do you figure that hunters arent a big factor in sheep management? talk about mule deer management and its all about how many antlered vs antlerless tags are issued. same as antelope. hunters are a very very big consideration in managing any species...sheep included. of course there is more to it, like predators, subsistence slaughter, and habitat issues, but please explain how controlling hunter numbers isnt managing.....

Because sheep harvest hasn't changed for decades yet the population and age suddenly started going down...seems to me another factor or factors should be looked at. Just look at the lamb survival rates and tell me why controling hunters is a good idea. I didn't say controlling huters wasn't managing. In fact it's the easiest way to manage. Sadly it doesn't address the real issues and is a short term solution at best in this situation.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

if thats what they are trying to do, then full curl restriction doesnt work and you already know why.


a lot of rams never meet that definition.

^^^ In Red, This is why Full Curl DOES work to protect a higher percentage of the population from being harvested by Licenced Hunters.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That's why it would allow rams to grow old and it would totally prevent young rams from being killed. A draw would work but only if numbers were super restrictive....even at 4/5. I'm not advocating for either but full curl would achieve their management goal with no loss of opportunity.

Agreed. But just because other jurisdictions have already tried this, successfully.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by spurly

Full curl on both sides of highway 3 would be a help for sure as some of the rams in 400 cross the highway to breed in a 4/5 zone, and get hammered.
In the Pass a large % of the rams get killed in the last 3-4 days of the season, as they are moving to the breeding range. It might **** people off, but an adjustment to the close date would save a few rams in this area, which typically harvests aprox 15-19 rams per season, for a very small area.
we lose a few rams to vehicle colision each year as well as our wolf, and cougar population eating very well.We need change, its just, that it needs to be studied better to be done on either a zone by zone or area specific plan. a shot in the dark by srd is not what we need right now.

Unfortunately Full Curl by the highway won't work as Treaty harvest will get those rams left by Licenced hunters.

20+ Known Treaty Rams so far this year.

[spurly]

agreed 100% WB thats why I stated earlier, the first thing that needs to happen, is to take sheep off of the subsistance list. Then we can look at full curl, on both sides of the highway

[Innoka]

Originally Posted by spurly

agreed 100% WB thats why I stated earlier, the first thing that needs to happen, is to take sheep off of the subsistance list. Then we can look at full curl, on both sides of the highway

Not trying to stir things up and take the thread in a different direction, but you might want to be careful in what you wish for. It has been made clear in the courts that wildlife in Alberta is managed for conservation, Section 35 hunting rights and recreational hunting opportunities and in that order. if you try and take away "subsistance" hunting rights then I would guess recreational hunting opportunities are going away too. Just saying.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

^^^ In Red, This is why Full Curl DOES work to protect a higher percentage of the population from being harvested by Licenced Hunters.





Agreed. But just because other jurisdictions have already tried this, successfully.

ok, i agree that more sheep will be protected. it wont increase the age or size of rams harvested though, so officially nothing would change. might as well expand some parks then...result would be the same...less sheep going home with hunters. personally, id like to see more and bigger sheep going to licensed hunters.

seems quite obvious that native harvest and outfiiter harvest is taking a wildly unfair percentage of albertas resources. seems the easiet and cheapest way to increase the number of rams going to the average albertanwould be to straighten out those issues first.

of course i dont think that would change the size and age situation. again, a lot of guys feel completely entitled to hunt sheep every year.

as for the long term numbers of harvest.....that also seems like simple math. the average hunter today is better equipped and better educated on how to kill sheep. given that alberta has so little sheep habitat, it would only take a couple of rams a year over the previous year to make a difference. dont forget that wild winter of 95-96. since then, if hunters have taken the vast majority of legal rams in any given area.....leaving 5% or less in many areas, then it wouldnt take a lot of calculating to see that there are precious few surviving to maturity. i suppose that word is arguable, but i dont think that the 4 1/2 year olds that make legal are mature. i dont really believe even the 5 or 6 year olds are. if i had to define it, i would say that 8 is fully mature....but feel free to call me names and tell me im wrong. its just an opinion.

Bambi....how could it not increase the size and age of the rams harvested....they'd need to be full curl rather than 4/5 so obviously they'd be longer and older. It takes more years to grow to full curl and more inches to be legal. Yes, less would be harvested too.

[spurly]

I guess the argument is between rights, and abuse of rights.Like anything else, a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by SLH

Where have you gotten this SRD information from the past 40 years, I'd be interested in seeing that.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This concept "hunting induced horn size reduction in sheep" is a concept put forward by David Coltman.


Paper For Hunting Induced Smaller Bighorns - Coltman

SELECTION AND GENETIC (CO)VARIANCE IN BIGHORN SHEEPhttp://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...volution05.pdf



Papers concluding HUnting has NOT reduced Horn Size

Coltman's conclusion were countered by several associates, and proven to be false.

Bighorns and Little Horns Revisited
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf



Is Rapid Horn Growth Associated with Increased or Decreased Longevity?
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...hr%20FINAL.pdf


Coltman is now being funded by the ACA in a continued effort to prove his theory, this time using genetic markers. In the ecology world, there is a push to prove "Trophy HUnting" is detrimental to the population. The continued use of the flawed Coltman 2003 Paper is popular as it leads further Biased research towards the agenda of eliminating hunting of Mature animals.

Genetic linkage map of a wild genome: genomic structure, recombination and sexual dimorphism in bighorn sheep
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/524/abstract
Joshua Miller / David Coltman,University of Alberta,
A conservation genomic assessment of bighorn sheep harvesting
http://www.acabiodiversity.ca/archiv...011AwardYr.pdf


I am disappointed that Anne Hubbs used the Coltman paper in her presentation, yet she ignores several papers that proved Coltman wrong. This selective harvest of data is very concerning.

[Justin.C]

Originally Posted by steve

Their info (if its acuurate or not) shows a decrease in horn size. The results from the province wide survey coming out will show a decrease in numbers. Thats is your own opinion that it is just a "hard winter" and they will bounce back.

SRD's number do and will show a problem, whether its real. Or is it what they want it to show?

Right now they are looking for a solution.

So how can they be trying to fix what only they know about? Allthe big players have no idea what is going on other than SRD is chatting with each other or faulsifing document. Just like cwd and grizzly bears.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Justin.C

So how can they be trying to fix what only they know about? Allthe big players have no idea what is going on other than SRD is chatting with each other or faulsifing document. Just like cwd and grizzly bears.

I dont understand any of this?

[Justin.C]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i think thats my biggest concern here. their own stats based on their own registration info says one thing, while coltman is saying the opposite. i really have to wonder why they are trusting an outside source when they already have the facts? this smells very much like a political scheme, and not a solution for hunting at all......

This is right. Cotmans bs is theory not facts.

[Justin.C]

Originally Posted by steve

I dont understand any of this?

Why is I only SRD know anything???? All stakeholders have none of this info. So why not support info to them before even a conversation about if there is or is not a problem. then everybody knows so we can all deal with it.

[bighornram]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Actually there`s no archery season for black bears, cougar, bison and goats either. I wouldn`t support further fragmenting the sheep season and taking opportunity away from hunters. Ya, I know everyone can pick up a bow but right now they don`t have to and not everyone would so it would reduce opportunity. I`d rather see some other management options looked at other than keeping hunters out of the mountains.

make areas accessable by foot only, get rid of quads and horses.

[Sharp Stick]

Originally Posted by bighornram

make areas accessable by foot only, get rid of quads and horses.

x100

[bigbore375]

I thought the whole idea here was to manage and improve sheep. I'm a horse guy and wouldn't be heart broken if they banned quads. But I don't want to see hunter opportunity cut. It takes a ton of work and expense to learn how to pack plus get all the gear required to do so. Let's concentrate this thread on how to improve sheep hunting.

[bdub]

I totally agree, having quads ripping around in the spring/summer under lambing grounds does nothing but harm to lamb survival. The same thing goes for sheep on their winter range. It adds unneeded stress at critical times for the sheep herd as well as allowing poachers and natives an easy crack at the sheep. Limiting quad access close to sheep habitat during hunting season would increase ram survival as well as improve the hunting experience. In many ways this holds true for horse access as well. Try walking into Whitehorse Creek in late August. All you can smell and see on the trail is horse manure. I've got nothing against quads or horses for hunting but there really should be better control of access in the interest of the sheep herd and our future of sheep hunting.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bigbore375

I thought the whole idea here was to manage and improve sheep. I'm a horse guy and wouldn't be heart broken if they banned quads. But I don't want to see hunter opportunity cut. It takes a ton of work and expense to learn how to pack plus get all the gear required to do so. Let's concentrate this thread on how to improve sheep hunting.

Success rate is tied to ease of access. Look at all the 4 an 5 year old rams slaughtered off the highway in k-country. If quads and horses are done away with there will be a whole lot less people getting to the rams. It adds up that more will survive.

[870wing]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Success rate is tied to ease of access. Look at all the 4 an 5 year old rams slaughtered off the highway in k-country. If quads and horses are done away with there will be a whole lot less people getting to the rams. It adds up that more will survive.

This would cut down some of the numbers, but also take away opportunity from people with physical problems. I understand that you can't pull back a bow? You are a proponent of a crossbow season. So, you know how these people would feel if their oppotunity was taken away.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Success rate is tied to ease of access. Look at all the 4 an 5 year old rams slaughtered off the highway in k-country. If quads and horses are done away with there will be a whole lot less people getting to the rams. It adds up that more will survive.

Access does play a vital role. Rams shot off the highway or atv access' need to be addressed before horses ! How do you curb the slaughter of highway rams without effecting hunter opportunity?

[timmyt]

I thought hunter didn't want to reduce hunter opportunity? By not allowing horses into the back country not only reduces sheep hunting opportunity it also vastly restricts hunting opportunities for other big game animals.

IMO, the only way to increase the horn size of the sheep on the mountain is to go full curl province wide. I would not support this however. I would not support a draw or the increased wait times.

I am not sure why SRD is even concerned with the horn size of the sheep? The only thing they should care about is a healthy population that is sustainable. Horn size shouldn't even be in their minds at all. As long as there are sufficient breeding rams is all that should matter to them.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by timmyt

I thought hunter didn't want to reduce hunter opportunity? By not allowing horses into the back country not only reduces sheep hunting opportunity it also vastly restricts hunting opportunities for other big game animals.

IMO, the only way to increase the horn size of the sheep on the mountain is to go full curl province wide. I would not support this however. I would not support a draw or the increased wait times.

I am not sure why SRD is even concerned with the horn size of the sheep? The only thing they should care about is a healthy population that is sustainable. Horn size shouldn't even be in their minds at all. As long as there are sufficient breeding rams is all that should matter to them.

Agree

as with any thing and the graph's show this there are ups and down in numbers if there are some zone that are low now will they be low in 10-20 years ? if not then only address those zone's for as short as possible

do not fix what is not broken just to make a change.. and don,t take anymore sheep areas and make parks/ industrial sites ie mine's

there is only X number of rams reaching trophy stats curl each year and we Albertans have never done a full harvest of those numbers in the whole province

Remember 10 % of hunters get 90% of animals don,t be jealous if you are not there yet just work alittle harder to get into the 10%.. those 10% do not kill 3/4 curl rams with lamb tips

100,s of Sheep hunters buy tags each year but will pass up legal sheep


Food for Thought
David

[timmyt]

The scariest part is the plans to put certain zones on draw or full curl only and reassess in a few years. If this happens, you will NEVER get back what we once had.

If there is a problem with short rams being shot, then they need punish the people that are shooting them, not just back down and plug them anyways. Which is what they are doing *rumor alert*. The Province needs to grow a set and prosecute these people.

They want a draw because it's the EASY way. The Government ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance and the ALWAYS grease the squeaky wheel. We have to be the squeakiest of them all and fight for what we believe in to keep our rights.

A draw would catastrophic for sheep hunters. Forget shooting that once in a lifetime ram, we'll all be hoping for that once in a lifetime draw.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Access does play a vital role. Rams shot off the highway or atv access' need to be addressed before horses ! How do you curb the slaughter of highway rams without effecting hunter opportunity?

More encompassing wildlife corridors.

Band-aid at best IMO.

As it relates to sheep hunting having a few ponies is 10x more advantageous than owning an OHV..

[timmyt]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

More encompassing wildlife corridors.

Band-aid at best IMO.

As it relates to sheep hunting having a few ponies is 10x more advantageous than owning an OHV..

Depending on where you hunt. It takes a lot longer to tack up horses than to back a quad off a truck and go. Quads are also quite a bit cheaper run and maintain.

[ishootbambi]

some of you clearlyhave not read the information presented in this thread. there are areas that were once closed to atv access that have since opened up. success rates have stayed the same. access with either horses or atvs has not affected sheep hunting success.

you could argue that it would keep more hunters out of some of the more remote areas, providing a less crowded experience for those that hike in, but the success rates speak for themselves.

as for shooting 4 or 5 year olds off roads in the south....the thing is that those southern rams grow a little bigger a little faster. the road isnt leading to their death....their horns are. the guys that want to kill a sheep are going to get there even if they have to walk. having a look at the map, it appears the farthest distance from roads where sheep can be hunted in alberta is the far SW corner of the wilmore. rams die there too. with todays gear, and a better educated sheep hunting public, i suspect todays sheep hunter is a more efficient killer than the guys of 40 years ago.

i would like to see some stats on rams killed using horses and or quads vs foot hunters. i bet some of you would be very surprised.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

as for shooting 4 or 5 year olds off roads in the south....the thing is that those southern rams grow a little bigger a little faster. the road isnt leading to their death....their horns are.

While it may be true, the opposite has also been seen. I've seen some 4-5 year old rams in the north part of the country as well that are of equal size or bigger than southern sheep. They will of course have a deeper curl for the most part, but I passed up a ram this year that was most likely 4.5 years old (barely legal) and have seen several 4-5 year old sheep from the south that simply dont compare with a lot of rams from the north of the same age.

Small sampling from me no doubt, but it could be argued either way I think.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

While it may be true, the opposite has also been seen. I've seen some 4-5 year old rams in the north part of the country as well that are of equal size or bigger than southern sheep. They will of course have a deeper curl for the most part, but I passed up a ram this year that was most likely 4.5 years old (barely legal) and have seen several 4-5 year old sheep from the south that simply dont compare with a lot of rams from the north of the same age.

Small sampling from me no doubt, but it could be argued either way I think.

the point was about access, not sheep size.

there are some very small sheep in the south and some giants in the north. there are always exceptions to every rule.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

some of you clearlyhave not read the information presented in this thread. there are areas that were once closed to atv access that have since opened up. success rates have stayed the same. access with either horses or atvs has not affected sheep hunting success. .

Where did you come up with these numbers that access has had little to do with harvesting sheep and in what context was this taken.