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pottymouth · #**211** 04-09-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Actually, there's a vast number of landowners and people that are also mis informed, because they believe that Bow hunters wound more game than anyone. Throw Xguns into the mix now, and our Rep ( bow hunters ) will be tarnished even more now......Most people will only see an arrow not a bolt!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Ive laid that comment out 2-3 times now without an official reaction from the opposition! Do I stand alone in stating that sometimes landowners deny access to bowhunters because of a bad expirence, and lack of knowledge that a bow can accomplish the same as a rifle??

Does that image, That people like whitetail Junkie portray of bow hunter sit well with all of you? ( that we can't kill anything, and wound more than we harvest)

Now ask your self can the avgerage person tell the diffrence between Xbow and Compound bow arrows.....the answer is NO.
That intial expansion surge of Xbow hunters might tarnish our public perseption people have of bowhunters....I've worked hard to have what I have as far landowners, and I won't sit and watch this get ruined by some over night hill billies!!!

I've already started to talk to my landowners about such issues!!!( I got enough pull they will listen) and urge the rest of bowhunters to do the same......maybe we will lose the battle, but we still could win the war!!

Im still waiting on some sort of an opinion on this!!! opposition???

Rob Miskosky · #**212** 04-09-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Rob that's just how I percieve the anarckey to be the first couple of years after it passes.

I have alot of years under my belt..... But I don't measure my expirence in years, but in hours, When it comes to hours I'm sure i'm in the top 5 percentile.

And maybe so, and I congratulate you for your dedication. But that doesn't equate that others, regardless of the weapon they use, aren't as dedicated.

Just look at how many rifle guys work up their own loads and know their weapon inside and out regardless of the distance they shoot at. How many hours do they spend shooting in all types of conditions? From the bench to the drawing board over and over again.

Why would crossbow guys be any different? In fact, many who would pick up a crossbow may very well be part of that dedicated bunch of compound and rifle guys.

Will there be the guy that doesn't put in the time? Of course, we have them guys now, regardless of the weapon being used, and always will.

HerdBull · #**213** 04-09-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GillieSuit

So to put another perspective on things lets just play with some numbers and look at this argument from the harvest allocation side.

SRD just wants to harvest "x" number of animals each year. They don't care which weapon of choice we use all they want to see is "x" number of deer, elk, moose, sheep, etc etc killed.

So there are currenlty around 100 000 hunters in alberta. approximately 15 000 of them are bow hunters and approximately 85 000 are rifle hunters. I won't get into cross over scenarios that discuss those that use muzzle loaders, bows, xbows and rifles etc etc. Keeping it simple lets look at harvest allocation.

ASRD allocates 15% of the overall harvest allocation to bow hunters. The remaining 85% goes to the rifle hunters.

What does this mean. Well it means that 15 000 bow hunters are expected to harvest 15% of the available animals. and 85 000 Rifle hunters are supposed to harvest 85% of the available animals. Seems reasonable almost balanced in fact.

So we want to allow crossbows in archery only seasons (archery only zones won't change, because harvest success in the bowzones is limited by hunter access to private land not overall hunter success, of 15 000 bow hunters in alberta, only a mere 200 actually have permission to hunt the calgary bow zone) Back to my point. If we open up the archery only season to crossbows we can expect the number of archers to double or triple. So lets look at the numbers and assume that total hunter numbers will stay the same and rifle hunters will become bow hunters.

15 000 x 3 is 45 000. So now we have 45 000 bow hunters and 55 000 rifle hunters. Lets look at this from a harvest allocation perspective.

45 000 bow hunters are expected to take 15% of the harvest allocation and 55 000 rifle hunters are expected to take 85% of the harvest allocation. Not very balanced anymore is it.

The word on the street is that the rifle hunting community will not give up any of the harvest allocation so the only way control the harvest rate of 45 000 bow hunters is by limiting the access to that 15% allocation. This means pretty much every animal will go to a draw except for white tails as they seem to thrive on predation.

So this scenario kind of sucks for everyone involved. Crossbow and vertical bow hunters alike. You see currently the bow hunting seasons and zones allow a larger opportunity for tags because bow hunter success is balanced with the expected harvest allocation. The scenario I've described doesn't give anyone an advantage. It just restricts our access to the resource even more than it already is.

I think we should spend less of our time worrying about the pros and cons of crossbows vs vertical bows and look at the numbers. Harvest Allocation is what really matters. If the bow hunters increased to 45 000 and the allocation increased to 45% that would be great. The harvest success of a crossbow is only 6% better than a vertical bow according to the national average so the bow hunting tag opportunities wouldn't change a whole lot. You might see some minor tweaks here and there for draws, but nothing major.

The Rifle hunting opportunities shouldn't change all that much either assuming that the crossbow hunters and the vertical bow hunters are successfull and don't go back to being rifle hunters once the Late October and Early November Rifle seasons open up.

Anyway just something else to wrap our brains around.

I doubt this would happen as bow hunters are a minority and the rifle hunting community won't give up their harvest allocation.

Debate on my friends.

I agree wholeheartedly. The pointless symantics can go around in circles for another 7 pages....and for what? Is it a bow? Is it a gun? Is it a crossgun? Is everybody going to practice with it? Don't sweat the small stuff boys, those lil arguments don't matter. What REALLY matters is that if we allow the introduction of these weapons to the archery only season it WILL HURT EVERYBODY IN THE LONG RUN! Our general archery season moose tags will be gone and will likely never return. General archery muley will go right along with it. I think the hardest hit tho will be general archery elk. Zones with general tags for archery season and draw tags for rifle season are going to get raped. They'll put it all on the draw system and we will never get it back.

The whole p6 cap is enough of a battle, why do we have to deal with this crap at the same time? I smell bad things brewin for hunting in Alberta. Like others, since this all started to pop up, I'm lookin at property next door in Sask. Lol

BowhuntAB · #**214** 04-09-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Im still waiting on some sort of an opinion on this!!! opposition???

Good idea Potty. I know dozens of Landowners in my area. I'll make sure to spread the word as well. Most of the places i hunt won't allow these guys on anyways but if we all get the word out there maybe they will better understand what maybe coming there way and more and more of them will not allow them on.

I can't imagine how annoying the parades of people looking for permission would be with all the new Xgun hunters. I know of land owners that flat out don't allow hunting because of the pain in the butt it is having 100 people stopping in to ask for permission every season. Thats why lots have us park our trucks in there yards. So other guys don't see them and figure they should be good to go as well and either walk in or go looking for permission.

Imagine what the roadallowances would look like as well!!! OMG they would line the things with there Xguns! I'm sure Mannix would be hiring more people to patrol!

Rob Miskosky · #**215** 04-09-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerdBull

.I smell bad things brewin for hunting in Alberta. Like others, since this all started to pop up, I'm lookin at property next door in Sask. Lol

Uproot the family and move because hunting in Alberta is going down the tubes because of that nasty weapon the crossbow!

Now that's dedicated HerdBull.

Dakota369 · #**216** 04-09-2010, 01:55 PM

Plain and simple, if it fires a projectile through the use of explosive force, it is a gun. A muzzle loader is a gun, a .22 rim fire is a gun, a 30-06 center fire is a gun, a 50mm howitzer is a gun, .....can ya see where I am going with this......etc.

If it fires a projectile using force derived from a string and bow it is a BOW!!!!! Since when held upright it looks like a cross it is referred to as a cross bow. simple enough for you????

Rob Miskosky · #**217** 04-09-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Good idea Potty. I know dozens of Landowners in my area. I'll make sure to spread the word as well. Most of the places i hunt won't allow these guys on anyways but if we all get the word out there maybe they will better understand what maybe coming there way and more and more of them will not allow them on.

I can't imagine how annoying the parades of people looking for permission would be with all the new Xgun hunters. I know of land owners that flat out don't allow hunting because of the pain in the butt it is having 100 people stopping in to ask for permission every season. Thats why lots have us park our trucks in there yards. So other guys don't see them and figure they should be good to go as well and either walk in or go looking for permission.

Imagine what the roadallowances would look like as well!!! OMG they would line the things with there Xguns! I'm sure Mannix would be hiring more people to patrol!

And Bowhunt, you should be embarrassed after that.

BowhuntAB · #**218** 04-09-2010, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

And Bowhunt, you should be embarrassed after that.

Why should i be embarrassed after that Rob?
Your up in Edmonton, i'm not sure if you have seen the 212 bowzone during the season? Even crazier is the Primtive weapons season in Dec. People literally pay security to patrol there land to keep people out. Tossing a few hundred new "hunters" in this area and what will happen? Its a small area. Very little room as it is. I live in this zone and know lots of landowers who are on the same page as i am with this.

ishootbambi · #**219** 04-09-2010, 02:09 PM

lemme put this another way. this is hypothetical and a little far fetched, but hear it out. lets say gun control gets more ridiculous than it already is and for example a new tax came out that made a box of rifle shells cost 500 bucks, and like some european countries do now you would be forced to store your firearm at the cop shop. it is safe to assume that many people would give up on owning guns, but many of them would still like to hunt. then lets say that xbows are never accepted into archery season, but a whole new whack of vertical bowhunters are born. lets assume the number of new bowhunters is exactly the number of potential new xbow hunters that have been feared for 40 odd pages of discussion. if that played out and the numbers are what you say, would you have the same problem with the same number of new hunters if they all opted your weapon of choice? all things being the same for your argument, the same number of harvest increase and the same reaction of more draws etc.
__________________

ghglenn · #**220** 04-09-2010, 02:19 PM

This type of exclusivity has been attempted before. As a mountain biker, I have seen many trails closed due to lack of unity by trail users. Hikers, equine, and Mtnbkrs, all fought over which group was more dedicated to trail up keep, who should or should not have access to certain trails, and whose use had more ill effects on the environment. Ultimately, the trails were closed, because the government did not care to deal with a bunch of disconnected user groups.

MathewsArcher · #**221** 04-09-2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota369

Plain and simple, if it fires a projectile through the use of explosive force, it is a gun. A muzzle loader is a gun, a .22 rim fire is a gun, a 30-06 center fire is a gun, a 50mm howitzer is a gun, .....can ya see where I am going with this......etc.

If it fires a projectile using force derived from a string and bow it is a BOW!!!!! Since when held upright it looks like a cross it is referred to as a cross bow. simple enough for you????

Plain and simple a bow must be drawn and held with muscle power.....Otherwise its something else but its not a bow........might not be a gun either but its not a bow.

BowhuntAB · #**222** 04-09-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dakota369

Plain and simple, if it fires a projectile through the use of explosive force, it is a gun. A muzzle loader is a gun, a .22 rim fire is a gun, a 30-06 center fire is a gun, a 50mm howitzer is a gun, .....can ya see where I am going with this......etc.

If it fires a projectile using force derived from a string and bow it is a BOW!!!!! Since when held upright it looks like a cross it is referred to as a cross bow. simple enough for you????

Ummm....no its not. Maybe you can fill me in?
Do me a favour, without any guidence go and draw back a bow. Aim it and release an arrow. Think your gonna hit a target? Now grab a crossbow, i'll bet your hitting the target. If they are the same in your mind after doing that i'd love hear back from you.

By the way, i'm still waiting (for days) to hear what the reason everyone wants to Xgun hunt all of a sudden? Why havent these same people taken up archery then? My guess, they know how to shoot a xgun even if they have never fired one before. Why because its just like a gun. To learn archery seems WAY to technical for most guys. Am i wrong?

HerdBull · #**223** 04-09-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Uproot the family and move because hunting in Alberta is going down the tubes because of that nasty weapon the crossbow!

Now that's dedicated HerdBull.

Its not ALL because of the crossbow, it just seems to me like its another nail in the coffin. Sooner or later Alberta is gonna be the same as a lot of the states. Huge overcrowding issues, paid access, BS draw systems....its all slowly going that way. Once Alberta is ruined, I'm sure SK won't be far behind, but maybe I can salvage a few more years of hunting before it goes south there too.
If we as a group could organize ourselves and stop the mindless bickering, we could fix what we think needs to be fixed. I hold little hope for our group organizing ourselves tho.

ishootbambi · #**224** 04-09-2010, 02:42 PM

potty....you are right. sound effects would be awesome to have on this forum. right now i would be pushing the button to hear crickets. go back if you missed it. i asked all of you how you would feel if vertical bowhunters doubled overnight and all your doom and gloom scenarios worked out. still waiting on a reply..........

ishootbambi · #**225** 04-09-2010, 02:45 PM

herdbull, i can appreciate your honesty here. i disagree with you, but at least you are willing to just speak the truth, and i say thank you for that.

Rob Miskosky · #**226** 04-09-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Why should i be embarrassed after that Rob?
Your up in Edmonton, i'm not sure if you have seen the 212 bowzone during the season? Even crazier is the Primtive weapons season in Dec. People literally pay security to patrol there land to keep people out. Tossing a few hundred new "hunters" in this area and what will happen? Its a small area. Very little room as it is. I live in this zone and know lots of landowers who are on the same page as i am with this.

How about because it shows the real reason behind your motives... the sky isn't falling BowhuntAB, nor is it about to. Relax and enjoy life. There's plenty of room for everybody. It wasn't that many years ago there were twice as many hunters in the field as there are today. If you were old enough to hunt back then, based on your posts here, you probably never would have started.

MathewsArcher · #**227** 04-09-2010, 03:13 PM

Thats why many of us started bowhunting........

Dakota369 · #**228** 04-09-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Plain and simple a bow must be drawn and held with muscle power.....Otherwise its something else but its not a bow........might not be a gun either but its not a bow.

Apparently not.............................

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A crossbow is a weapon consisting of a bow mounted on a stock that shoots projectiles, often called bolts or quarrels. The medieval crossbow was called by many names, most of which derived from the word ballista, a torsion engine resembling a crossbow in appearance

pottymouth · #**229** 04-09-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

potty....you are right. sound effects would be awesome to have on this forum. right now i would be pushing the button to hear crickets. go back if you missed it. i asked all of you how you would feel if vertical bowhunters doubled overnight and all your doom and gloom scenarios worked out. still waiting on a reply..........

It's more than happened in the last 40 years, maybe quadrupled..... I already have a problem with that, as Bowhuntab and I, and even you said the problem is land availablity.... I can now deal with the minor increase in Bowhunters.... but the surge in xbows would be the demise of all our hunting.

If 10% of rifle hunter tured to Xbows, that would nearly double the amount of bow hunter already in the field. With less and less private land accessability WHATS GONNA HAPPEN!!!

Now answer my post #211

Dakota369 · #**230** 04-09-2010, 03:17 PM

[QUOTE=BowhuntAB;558446]

Ummm....no its not. Maybe you can fill me in?
Do me a favour, without any guidence go and draw back a bow. Aim it and release an arrow. Think your gonna hit a target? Now grab a crossbow, i'll bet your hitting the target. If they are the same in your mind after doing that i'd love hear back from you.

You assume I have not, wrong again. I own a traditional bow, and have shot a crossbow a number of times. Making assumptions will show your ignorance.

I didn't realize that the ease with which one could learn to use something defines what it is called.

pottymouth · #**231** 04-09-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Thats why many of us started bowhunting........

X2

Rob your more than welcome for a tour of our bowzone (212) in the peak of hunting season, or the surronding zones.

I'll give up my weekend to show you what goes on around here.

BowhuntAB · #**232** 04-09-2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

How about because it shows the real reason behind your motives... the sky isn't falling BowhuntAB, nor is it about to. Relax and enjoy life. There's plenty of room for everybody. It wasn't that many years ago there were twice as many hunters in the field as there are today. If you were old enough to hunt back then, based on your posts here, you probably never would have started.

Sorry Rob, but i'll fight for what i believe in. Our area is WAY more populated then the North Rob. I send more time in the field then most people i know and have been hunting for a long time. I know what i see and that is to many hunters on very little land. We don't need more out hunters out here. I'm not a 65-80 year old man so i can't tell you what it was like back then. I can however tell you its over crowded now.

Rob Miskosky · #**233** 04-09-2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I'll give up my weekend to show you what goes on around here.

Can I bring my crossbow?

If it's already that bad, then there sure must be a lot of bad archery hunters out there.

Rob Miskosky · #**234** 04-09-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

We don't need more out hunters out here.

Sorry, but you'll never sell that one to me. Strength is in numbers no matter how you slice it.

BowhuntAB · #**235** 04-09-2010, 03:26 PM

[QUOTE=Dakota369;558491]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BowhuntAB

Ummm....no its not. Maybe you can fill me in?
Do me a favour, without any guidence go and draw back a bow. Aim it and release an arrow. Think your gonna hit a target? Now grab a crossbow, i'll bet your hitting the target. If they are the same in your mind after doing that i'd love hear back from you.

You assume I have not, wrong again. I own a traditional bow, and have shot a crossbow a number of times. Making assumptions will show your ignorance.

I didn't realize that the ease with which one could learn to use something defines what it is called.

I take it you have done really well with your bow! I'm sure its laying out in the garage covered in dust because you couldnt shoot it well. Is that right?
They take some practice don't they?
(my ingorance is causing me to make assumptions again).

BowhuntAB · #**236** 04-09-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Sorry, but you'll never sell that one to me. Strength is in numbers no matter how you slice it.

Not in the 212 Rob! Why do you think 80% of the area out here is posted NO HUNTING. Do you think numbers will fix this?

MathewsArcher · #**237** 04-09-2010, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Sorry, but you'll never sell that one to me. Strength is in numbers no matter how you slice it.

Believe it or not there are a number of properties in the bowzone that have historically allowed hunters but have posted them and now refuse everyone as they just got tired of the constant parade of hunters looking for permission.

ishootbambi · #**238** 04-09-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pottymouth

It's more than happened in the last 40 years, maybe quadrupled..... I already have a problem with that, as Bowhuntab and I, and even you said the problem is land availablity.... I can now deal with the minor increase in Bowhunters.... but the surge in xbows would be the demise of all our hunting.

If 10% of rifle hunter tured to Xbows, that would nearly double the amount of bow hunter already in the field. With less and less private land accessability WHATS GONNA HAPPEN!!!

Now answer my post #211

you didnt answer the question potty. if this fall vertical bowhunter numbers were to double...FORGET ABOUT XBOWS...this is vertical only...would you have the same opposition to it knowing that every possible scenario you have described would be the exact same. i am asking clearly, do you oppose more competition from other bowhunters on that scale?

as for post 211 i see largely a comment and not so much a question. in the middle it says "do i stand alone in being denied access because a farmer sees a bow as ineffective or had a bad experience". well ok yes i have been denied access for that reason. one time a farmer told me no because the previous year his cattle cut up their hooves on a broadhead left out there by a bowhunter. another time i was told no because a deer trotted through the guys yard with an arrow in its chest that morning and his wife didnt like it. another guy said no once because he already has to babysit hunters for a month in november and didnt want to have to worry about another 2 months of daycare (his words).

i hope this answers your question. if not ask more clearly and ill try again. now i asked more clearly, so please answer mine.

BowhuntAB · #**239** 04-09-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Can I bring my crossbow?

If it's already that bad, then there sure must be a lot of bad archery hunters out there.

Have fun Potty. Talk to you later.
I guess what we need to save hunting is 30 guys per 1/4 and 15 years between tags. That would be perfect!

BowhuntAB · #**240** 04-09-2010, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Believe it or not there are a number of properties in the bowzone that have historically allowed hunters but have posted them and now refuse everyone as they just got tired of the constant parade of hunters looking for permission.

LOTS OF EM'
Thats why we need more hunters MathewsArcher.