Administration of Trapping in Alberta

[sourdough doug]

"We're from the Government and we're here to help you"
Of course they will gladly relinguish their present position with the ATA and save some money. Their present staff will not be released, just "relocated"..
When giving this "power" to the ATA, they will be smiling and giving the ATA, all the rope they need to do it to themselves....Definitely "here to help us"

[209x50]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

I hope you address your letters properly Dave. I believe that the person who will be reading you letter is known as the MP’s flunky. Please address accordingly.

The 'flunky" as you so kindly put it is a member here and is reading this thread.

If you take this thread by itself with no past history context Hunter Dave is being very a rational person in the discussion. Backing his opinion with costs and information from other provinces. Not mocking and name calling. I don't disagree with him. I know lots of old trappers who know nothing else and to whom $300 will beyond their reach. What then? Does the ATA seize their trapline? To many of us 300 bucks isn't much but there are plenty of trappers I know on the pension that do not have that laying around. Add to that on going training and courses and and more hoops and red tape to jump through, WTH! Is the ATA going to make trapping just a rich man's sport?
You can all laugh and name call all you want but I'm not in support of what I see so far and just because someone says it is good for me doesn't make it so. Trudeau says he is looking out for me everyday and you can see how that is working out.

[cody j]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The 'flunky" as you so kindly put it is a member here and is reading this thread.

If you take this thread by itself with no past history context Hunter Dave is being very a rational person in the discussion. Backing his opinion with costs and information from other provinces. Not mocking and name calling. I don't disagree with him. I know lots of old trappers who know nothing else and to whom $300 will beyond their reach. What then? Does the ATA seize their trapline? To many of us 300 bucks isn't much but there are plenty of trappers I know on the pension that do not have that laying around. Add to that on going training and courses and and more hoops and red tape to jump through, WTH! Is the ATA going to make trapping just a rich man's sport?
You can all laugh and name call all you want but I'm not in support of what I see so far and just because someone says it is good for me doesn't make it so. Trudeau says he is looking out for me everyday and you can see how that is working out.

I agree. For myself reading this thread without knowing much about the ATA and it’s politics, and not knowing about the personal history between the different people posting
I get the impression that different viewpoints or opinions are not welcomed by ATA members. That’s what I get from reading this thread but maybe I’m wrong.

[Redhorse Ranch]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The 'flunky" as you so kindly put it is a member here and is reading this thread.

If you take this thread by itself with no past history context Hunter Dave is being very a rational person in the discussion. Backing his opinion with costs and information from other provinces. Not mocking and name calling. I don't disagree with him. I know lots of old trappers who know nothing else and to whom $300 will beyond their reach. What then? Does the ATA seize their trapline? To many of us 300 bucks isn't much but there are plenty of trappers I know on the pension that do not have that laying around. Add to that on going training and courses and and more hoops and red tape to jump through, WTH! Is the ATA going to make trapping just a rich man's sport?
You can all laugh and name call all you want but I'm not in support of what I see so far and just because someone says it is good for me doesn't make it so. Trudeau says he is looking out for me everyday and you can see how that is working out.

I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of Hunter Dave. He's not the issue. He's asking questions that nobody wants to answer here.

[sourdough doug]

And just listen to that Trappingman go.......123 posts and he has all the f###g answers....We've seen your kind before.. Sounding like the bobbleheads GK had on the string...With that group, your opinion was only the right one if it was theirs....and let the downfall begin....
..with only 92 to your count, you, at Red horse Ranch, seem to have a much better handle on matters and already have been able to read between the lines..
There can be a lot of times when on this site, that more views are seen and digested than at many ATA mtgs, director meetings included...been there and seen that.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by 209x50

The 'flunky" as you so kindly put it is a member here and is reading this thread.

If you take this thread by itself with no past history context Hunter Dave is being very a rational person in the discussion. Backing his opinion with costs and information from other provinces. Not mocking and name calling. I don't disagree with him. I know lots of old trappers who know nothing else and to whom $300 will beyond their reach. What then? Does the ATA seize their trapline? To many of us 300 bucks isn't much but there are plenty of trappers I know on the pension that do not have that laying around. Add to that on going training and courses and and more hoops and red tape to jump through, WTH! Is the ATA going to make trapping just a rich man's sport?
You can all laugh and name call all you want but I'm not in support of what I see so far and just because someone says it is good for me doesn't make it so. Trudeau says he is looking out for me everyday and you can see how that is working out.

Wow! You just impressed the hell out of me, Richard. I wanted to walk away for a bit but seriously, you nailed it.

It sounds like you are starting to understand where I’ve been coming from all these years......as annoying as I was.

Every time the ATA increases the cost to trap they are raising the bar for people that NEED to trap just to get by. More people are shutout of trapping......the wrong people......the ones that need to hunt and trap just to survive.

Like you stated, trapping isn’t supposed to be a rich man’s “sport”.

[dugh]

It seems like the cart is waaaay in front of the horse on this one.
Stay safe, healthy and have a great season.
Doug

[TrapperMike]

Just curious Dave. Not saying your wrong but who needs to trap to survive.

[35 whelen]

I'm guessing nobody needs to trap to survive nowadays everything else cost too much just to get there to trap it's a dying tradition just like hunting.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[crazyfish]

I know a few old timers in my area that the trapping cash adds enough to his pension and old age benefit that it makes a difference . Going to 300$ certainly knocks the shine off the year end totals.

I paid my money , took the course , pay my year ATA support fee , have trapped every year since. I've been to the ATA AGM's when I wasn't stuck at work . I'm not a big fan of a 400% increase for my resident license.

I can't honestly say what an appropriate amount is for a yearly resident license , or an RFMA license. I'm sure there are some associated costs , maybe a new job position for getting all important/ required info to the GOV'T in a timely manner. I'd like to see how this translates into a fair balance for trappers and the ATA.

It looks like the staunch supporters of the ATA aren't happy with Dave questioning things , but I really do think that there are a lot of unanswered questions I'd like to see answered before I jump on the band wagon. I'm sure there are some $ savings for the gov't , and an arm's length association may make the gov'ts public relations issues easier to deal with .........pass it on to the ATA ! LOL

I'd certainly like to have babercombie come back to this and provide a little feedback and clear the air

[pikeslayer22]

Originally Posted by crazyfish

I know a few old timers in my area that the trapping cash adds enough to his pension and old age benefit that it makes a difference . Going to 300$ certainly knocks the shine off the year end totals.

I paid my money , took the course , pay my year ATA support fee , have trapped every year since. I've been to the ATA AGM's when I wasn't stuck at work . I'm not a big fan of a 400% increase for my resident license.

I can't honestly say what an appropriate amount is for a yearly resident license , or an RFMA license. I'm sure there are some associated costs , maybe a new job position for getting all important/ required info to the GOV'T in a timely manner. I'd like to see how this translates into a fair balance for trappers and the ATA.

It looks like the staunch supporters of the ATA aren't happy with Dave questioning things , but I really do think that there are a lot of unanswered questions I'd like to see answered before I jump on the band wagon. I'm sure there are some $ savings for the gov't , and an arm's length association may make the gov'ts public relations issues easier to deal with .........pass it on to the ATA ! LOL

I'd certainly like to have babercombie come back to this and provide a little feedback and clear the air

If you look at the “staunch” supporters they all have one thing in common

[HunterDave]

If anyone wants to know the path that the ATA wants to take you need to get your hands on the, "Detailed Business Case for Alberta’s Trapping Program"......and the the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between the ATA and AEP would help clarify things as well. These should be made available to ATA members but I didn't have any luck with getting my hands on either of them when I was a member. There was always an excuse about them being re-written, etc.

Although I haven't read either document I am aware of some of the contents of the Business Case. The contents of the document deals with RFMA's NOT Resident Trappers. So, where is this increase in Resident Trapper's licensing coming from? Never mind, I already know.

I'm going to guess that if the ATA is going to include licensing for Resident Trappers, what applies to RFMA Trappers will also apply to Resident Trappers.

The Business Case.....

- Annual submission of an RFMA plan

- Fur harvest records must be submitted each year along with fur receipts/returns as well.

- identifies the minimum standards by which a trapper would have to abide to retain his “active” status.

- Trappers will also be required to maintain a “minimum level of competency” that includes upgraded training

- The ATA would have the ability to remove delinquent RFMA holders and those who use traplines for purposes other than trapping. Trappers that failed to meet those standards would “be ineligible to hold a license”.

Anyone remember what the Bios inexplicably came up with "right out of the blue" with all the mandatory courses, fur receipts, etc in order to take over an RFMA? Sound similar?

The increase in cost for trapping licenses, although concerning, is merely the tip of the iceberg. The REAL money lies with the ATA being able to define what courses are mandatory to take in order to keep your license/trapline, how often you have to take them AND setting the prices for them. If you don't, you lose your license and/or trapline. That sounds a lot like extortion to me......pay me or you're hooped.

Don't count on the ATA membership to quash this because some of them will undoubtedly go along with this nonsense. Take the time to write the Minister and let him know what your thoughts are about the ATA taking over the licensing and jacking up the cost. There's a lot more at stake than just $55 extra per year.

[dugh]

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a problem with that business case.
To me trapping is a form of conservation and seeing a trapline used for trapping is a good thing. There is no status quo, move forward or languish .
Thank for listening. Stay safe.
Doug

[Big Grey Wolf]

"Oh my gosh" looks like Dave just nailed it with the ATA Business Case. How anyone can write a Business Plan for $20 marten, $15 beaver and 50 cent squirrels and make it pay is a joke.
Trappers got higher dollar prices in the 40-50's for most fur when a dollar bought 20 times what it does today.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by dugh

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a problem with that business case.
To me trapping is a form of conservation and seeing a trapline used for trapping is a good thing. There is no status quo, move forward or languish .
Thank for listening. Stay safe.
Doug

It's just you. I see a huge problem with that business plan. And I trap hard every minute of the trapping season.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by dugh

Maybe it's just me but I don't see a problem with that business case.
To me trapping is a form of conservation and seeing a trapline used for trapping is a good thing. There is no status quo, move forward or languish .
Thank for listening. Stay safe.
Doug

No concern for who gets screwed over by the ATA's "Business Plan", eh? I guess as long as they are generating huge amounts of revenue it's all good. For supposed trapping advocates they seem more concerned with business rather than the future of trapping in Alberta.

Here's a better known saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.".

Were you tickled pink when AEP came out with a similar scheme back in 2016? As bad as it was it didn't involve jacking up the licensing costs.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=293671

[Mulehahn]

Don't have a dog in this race, probably never will. Just find it very interesting. But I am still continually struck by the very first post in this thread. I know it has been brought up earlier but I am still confused that someone would lead with:

"The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year."

Then go on and say "This process will be transparent and open" The deal is signed!?

This thread appears to be the first mention that I can find about this deal, and it came out after it was already done. Now, I am not a member of the ATA so it may have been mentioned at an earlier meeting but the request for "input" makes that unlikely. How can the process be open and transparent if the deal is signed before the membership at large even knows it is on the table?

As I have said, no dog in this fight, but I am a member of various other organizations and if any of them came to me and said "I want your input on this agreement that will have a huge affect on all of its members, oh and by the way, it's already signed" there would be hell to pay.

I sincerely hope that this thread is not an honest representation of where trapping is headed in Alberta; but judging by the name calling and dismissive attitudes towards apparently legitimate, though perhaps uncomfortable, questions I am starting to believe it is. That a shame.

[HunterDave]

Don’t ignore what the ATA is trying to do. This Christmas take the time to contact the Minister and voice your concerns. If not for yourself, do it for kids and low income earners that want to trap legally. Hunting, fishing and Trapping were never meant to be recreational activities only for people that are well off.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by TrapperMike

Just curious Dave. Not saying your wrong but who needs to trap to survive.

I don't know about Dave's neighborhood but up here a good many older trappers need the income.

Many can not find work in the oilfield, they want younger people, and the smaller centers just don't have enough job opportunities for everyone.

For a lot of years I depended on trapping as the only option when work was not available.

Although I am not longer physically capable of trapping and don't need the income, many of my peers still trap and still need the income.

Never underestimate how little some get for a pension.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

Don't have a dog in this race, probably never will. Just find it very interesting. But I am still continually struck by the very first post in this thread. I know it has been brought up earlier but I am still confused that someone would lead with:

"The Alberta Trappers Association and AEP have come to an agreement whereby the responsibility for the administration, licensing, and some regulatory functions will be transitioned to the ATA over the next year."

Then go on and say "This process will be transparent and open" The deal is signed!?

This thread appears to be the first mention that I can find about this deal, and it came out after it was already done. Now, I am not a member of the ATA so it may have been mentioned at an earlier meeting but the request for "input" makes that unlikely. How can the process be open and transparent if the deal is signed before the membership at large even knows it is on the table?

As I have said, no dog in this fight, but I am a member of various other organizations and if any of them came to me and said "I want your input on this agreement that will have a huge affect on all of its members, oh and by the way, it's already signed" there would be hell to pay.

I sincerely hope that this thread is not an honest representation of where trapping is headed in Alberta; but judging by the name calling and dismissive attitudes towards apparently legitimate, though perhaps uncomfortable, questions I am starting to believe it is. That a shame.

I also no longer have a dog in this race so take my input for what it is, just another cranky old trapper who is out of touch.

I was an ATA member for many years. I quit paying for membership when after over twenty years as a member of having my concerns ignored and not once was I informed about pending decisions.
Often I wasn't even informed after the fact. I got my updates from other trappers and the local paper. Not from ATA.

I don't know what they are like now so I won' comment on that, but I don't think it unreasonable to suspect that little has changed.

I see no reason to doubt what Dave is saying. To me he seems like a stand up guy.

[HunterDave]

So, I received my FOIP request today in order to get accurate information on the talks between the ATA and AEP wrt the transfer of licensing to the ATA that the President of the association alluded to in the original post. No record of any meeting minutes after June 7, 2017. No meetings between the ATA and AEP between 2017 and 2020......yeah, I don’t think so. WTH is going on here?

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by BAbercrombie

This is an opportunity for trappers to step up and chart a path forward for all trappers in Alberta. This process will be transparent and open; since I dont spend much time on forums I invite any trapper to contact me directly with questions and concerns. There will be regular updates as this process moves forward. please consult the ATA website for current information: www.albertatrappers.com
Have a great season....yours in trapping.
Bill Abercrombie, President
Alberta Trappers
780 446 0304
bushman@traplineadventures.com

Three months later and still absolutely nothing wrt this on the ATA website. There never was anything on there for Trappers to consult in the first place! Did anyone actually believe that the ATA would keep their membership informed let alone any other Alberta Trappers?

Same old ATA. React with empty platitudes when they are found out and then hope that Trappers forget and the story fades away until it’s too late to do anything about it.

Say, how’s that Mandatory Snaring course coming that you lobbied AEP for behind your membership’s backs?

If you haven't done so already you ought to let the Minister know what your thoughts are about this. Expressing your opinion to the President of the ATA will get you nowhere fast.

[natureman37]

Thanks for sharing