Bighorn Public land to Parks land proposal

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

@mountainti, congrats on getting out lots. @FClightning, the issue is that in most areas where quads are "limited" they actually aren't. Last week I was out in the Ghost, and on multiple cut lines where SRD had tried to block access the quads had worked around it through the woods (and chopping down more trees to do so). There is no viable way to enforce the OHV rules in remote areas like the Ghost and most of the Bighorn. If the quads aren't flat out banned then they will continue to get off the designated routes. Trucks can't do that to the same extent, and seem to generally play by the rules better. Not always, but solvable, and it's easier to stop a truck than a quad (a few of my friend's trucks excepted, but they play nice).

Have a look at the maps in the link below if you haven't already, the areas where OHVs are banned are tiny on the front range. Personally, I'd like to see OHVs allowed in small areas, basically parks for OHVs. Right now it's small areas for parks, and OHVs are allowed in most places.

https://www.albertaparks.ca/media/64...nsolidated.pdf

Finally, banning hunting and banning quads are not the same thing, but they are related. As hunters we really need to clean up the public's perception of us. That's the greatest long term danger to hunting, and the gong show OHV and random camping from "hunters" shapes the public perception far more than the many I know who hunt without trashing the places they hunt. Advocating for continued OHV use in sensitive areas like the Bighorn does not help the image of hunters at all. The times are changing, and either we change too or we'll get written out.

You really do need to have a closer look at this map you speak of. You bring it up, you paste a link, but have no idea of what the map contains.

Bighorn Backcountry FLUZ's
Dormer/Sheep-limited designated ohv trails
Panther Corners-NO ohv's
Upper Clearwater/Ram-Basically one loop consisting of 3 named trails in the hummingbird
Job/Cline-No ohv's
Blackstone/Wabiabi-No ohv's
Of course none in the Siffleur or White Goat either
Kiska/Wilson (eastern side of the Bighorn)-numerous ohv trails.

Down in the ghost
North burnt-no ohv's
South burnt-limited designated trails that are actually numbered and mapped
I have seen the maps for the area further south and know they are numbered and designated trails, but have never been in there so I won't comment on it

As I said, look at the actual maps, a small portion of the bighorn allows the use of OHV's. There are those that know, and those that don't. Inform yourself

So you say that people aren't abiding by the law..breaking the rules if you will. Your solution is to turn it all into a park. Will this magically stop the law/rule breakers? I could come up with a few different analogies here, but I expect I would be wasting my time and energy



Lots of land left..... Sounds like a slogan Shannon P. should try using

[beansgunsghandi]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

This statement is complete horse ****!

Guess what, there are places all over North America that rules and regulations are enforced in the backcountry, and they are successful! Why not here in Alberta? Because no one has ever put the effort forward and actually tried...

I agree with everyone that enforcement would be best, I just gave up on that one a long time ago, so what's the realistic alternative? Can you maybe point out some areas where quads stay on the quad trails in Alberta? Maybe they are out there, but in every area I've visited with "designated trails" the quads go rogue. There's always the "Enforce the rules!" cry, but at some point reality has to be faced that in Alberta there's no budget or will or practical way to enforce a lot of rules. Maybe some technology in the future?

Anyhow, these threads start to look pretty one-sided a lot of the time so I've put my two cents in and wish everyone a safe time outdoors in whatever way they get there, we're lucky in Alberta to have options.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

I agree with everyone that enforcement would be best, I just gave up on that one a long time ago, so what's the realistic alternative? Can you maybe point out some areas where quads stay on the quad trails in Alberta? Maybe they are out there, but in every area I've visited with "designated trails" the quads go rogue. There's always the "Enforce the rules!" cry, but at some point reality has to be faced that in Alberta there's no budget or will or practical way to enforce a lot of rules. Maybe some technology in the future?

Anyhow, these threads start to look pretty one-sided a lot of the time so I've put my two cents in and wish everyone a safe time outdoors in whatever way they get there, we're lucky in Alberta to have options.

I could go on and on with you but won’t bother. After reading your post history back 10 years ago I see it would be a huge waste of my time.

There’s no money for enforcement but there is 40 million to create a park? Give your head a shake!

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

There's always the "Enforce the rules!" cry, but at some point reality has to be faced that in Alberta there's no budget or will or practical way to enforce a lot of rules.

That is part of the problem all right. We will spend 40 million on creating a new park - as I mentioned earlier that would fund at least 10 officers for the next 20 years. Put 10 folks on the ground full time in the Bighorn alone, with a zero tolerance policy and it wouldn't take long for the rogue elements to get the point - and if they didn't we could solve the Health Care deficit problem.

If the gov't spends as much to enforce rules in the new park as it is currently spending to enforce the rules in the Bighorn there will be very little improvement in the way things are.

[Masterchief]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

That is part of the problem all right. We will spend 40 million on creating a new park - as I mentioned earlier that would fund at least 10 officers for the next 20 years. Put 10 folks on the ground full time in the Bighorn alone, with a zero tolerance policy and it wouldn't take long for the rogue elements to get the point - and if they didn't we could solve the Health Care deficit problem.



If the gov't spends as much to enforce rules in the new park as it is currently spending to enforce the rules in the Bighorn there will be very little improvement in the way things are.

But they will spend money on enforcement in the park, just so they can say 'look we made it a park and there's no more problems'. They should just spend the money now to gauge if the current regulations work, but of course they won't do that

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[Sako123]

Yes, it’s a crazy situation. Believe it or not, AEP currently only funds about $1M in total for public land enforcement in the whole province. This funding is temporary and only provided to seasonal park officers (college kids) to provide very light work on liquor and OHV registrations close to some parks on the east slopes. I have heard that that all funding for public lands enforcement will be discontinued next year under the NDP. Maybe to make more parks, lol.

All the rest of public land enforcement across the entire province is being delivered on the backs of Alberta Fish and Wildlife Officers with next to nothing provided for funding by AEP. Now they want to spend $41M on a few parks and still leave all the rest of public land enforcement unfunded. What’s wrong with this Ministry and why have they been allowed to mismanage this public land portfolio so badly.

[Joe Black]

throne speech march 21. speculation the writ will be dropped. if so, i would think the plan is dropped until after the election, as according to the timeline, the final plan is not to be released untill spring. if they win, they continue. if they loose, the plan should be dead or at a minimum reworked.

[buckman]

I have looked but cant seem to find an actual map of proposed trails and roads that will be in place with this new plan.

Anyone have an idea where they can be found?

[Envitro]

I think the problem is that they can't be found due to them not existing.
The plan is not a plan, just fluff for the most part.

[243plus]

Originally Posted by buckman

I have looked but cant seem to find an actual map of proposed trails and roads that will be in place with this new plan.

Anyone have an idea where they can be found?

Try this.

http://aep.alberta.ca/recreation-pub...y/default.aspx

[Jamie]

Simple.. Want the park, vote NDP.

[Joe Black]

pretty much

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by buckman

I have looked but cant seem to find an actual map of proposed trails and roads that will be in place with this new plan.

Anyone have an idea where they can be found?

There are no trails marked on any of the maps, but this document gives some idea of what to expect in each area.
https://www.albertaparks.ca/media/64...nsolidated.pdf

[jasonrpeck]

Did anyone call in to the Red Deer teleconference meeting? I only heard some of it.

[Denali Dave]

If your interested in the recording here is a link to the mp3. Let me know if it doesn’t work. I also have access to the one from tues.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qZd...b3NAlh-UeETVms

[dmcbride]

Anyone at this event,

“Shannon Phillips gets applause in Lethbridge on Bighorn, politics”

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.4983094

Be nice if she went to areas of the province where people are actually affected by this poorly thought out plan.

[Joe Black]

And I’m sure there was no communicae sent out to Shannon supports to flood the meeting and clap when prompted.

Kinda like what they did when they announced the castle parks in pincher. Filled the room with NDP supporters who were informed of the meeting, so general pubic with opposing views couldn’t get in.

Democracy at its best.

[Abe89]

So, as far as I can glean, we have a government that is supposed to be a democracy, manipulates the system to look like democracy but is far from it (socialism/communism comes to mind), and does whatever it wants with little regard to public (dictatorship?).
Fair assessment?
My question; how do we hold a government accountable that doesn’t listen? That doesn’t operate as it should, that only hears what it wants to hear...
There are mla’s and the opposition which are fighting to do just this...is that all we can do/hope for?
Short of illegal options (which I am NOT advocating!!!!) or the election....


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[Joe Black]

Election.


But that will only stop the madness.


I’ve been fighting this for the last 5 years and have come to the realization that if your view differs from theirs, you will not be heard or considered.

No problem. Every dog has its day.

[Abe89]

Hey Check this out
https://albertawilderness.ca/issues/...mbed-6434-7153

very carefully worded, leaves a few details out that had been mentioned in the proposal/survey. So I took the chance to respond/re-write their letter. Was kind and respectful but clearly stated why I do not support the proposal and why. I'd encourage others to do the same. Not the support their looking for I don't think....

[RZR]

Originally Posted by Abe89

So, as far as I can glean, we have a government that is supposed to be a democracy, manipulates the system to look like democracy but is far from it (socialism/communism comes to mind), and does whatever it wants with little regard to public (dictatorship?).
Fair assessment?
My question; how do we hold a government accountable that doesn’t listen? That doesn’t operate as it should, that only hears what it wants to hear...
There are mla’s and the opposition which are fighting to do just this...is that all we can do/hope for?
Short of illegal options (which I am NOT advocating!!!!) or the election....


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No, this is what happens when you vote a majority government in. They can do what ever they want because who’s going to stop them.

[243plus]

Originally Posted by RZR

No, this is what happens when you vote a majority government in. They can do what ever they want because who’s going to stop them.

Yup, pretty sure the next government will do things many of us won't like.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Abe89

Hey Check this out
https://albertawilderness.ca/issues/...mbed-6434-7153

very carefully worded, leaves a few details out that had been mentioned in the proposal/survey. So I took the chance to respond/re-write their letter. Was kind and respectful but clearly stated why I do not support the proposal and why. I'd encourage others to do the same. Not the support their looking for I don't think....

Good idea. I sent their letter (with edits)

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by 243plus

Yup, pretty sure the next government will do things many of us won't like.

Really now. If they just tell the truth it will be a huge improvement over what we have now . Don't you agree

[Red Bullets]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

That is part of the problem all right. We will spend 40 million on creating a new park - as I mentioned earlier that would fund at least 10 officers for the next 20 years. Put 10 folks on the ground full time in the Bighorn alone, with a zero tolerance policy and it wouldn't take long for the rogue elements to get the point - and if they didn't we could solve the Health Care deficit problem.

If the gov't spends as much to enforce rules in the new park as it is currently spending to enforce the rules in the Bighorn there will be very little improvement in the way things are.

I have noticed that there were openings for new F&W officers in Alberta that just closed and in Saskatchewan they are hiring too. Not sure how many they are hiring but they are hiring more enforcement officers.

So everyone realizes... the times, they are a changing. Soon there will be more enforcement.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Red Bullets

I have noticed that there were openings for new F&W officers in Alberta that just closed and in Saskatchewan they are hiring too. Not sure how many they are hiring but they are hiring more enforcement officers.

So you’re not sure how many or where they will be posted. Your post proves absolutely nothing.

[Masterchief]

Saskatchewan is hiring full time Conservation Officers (via eligibility list)! To qualify for the position, you must have successfully passed a shotgun course of fire. This means that only those who have worked seasonally as a Conservation Officer or other similar law enforcement will be considered. So those of you wanting to jump ship from BC, Alberta, Manitoba or Yukon now is your chance

The competition closes on January 24. Good luck!


from Western Canadian Game Warden Facebook page

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[landowner]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

And I’m sure there was no communicae sent out to Shannon supports to flood the meeting and clap when prompted.

Kinda like what they did when they announced the castle parks in pincher. Filled the room with NDP supporters who were informed of the meeting, so general pubic with opposing views couldn’t get in.

Democracy at its best.

That is exactly what happened, Lethbridge will be wiped clean of the orange stain that plagues it now .

[agentsmith]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

They also like to insert moles to monitor relevant discussions by non-member organizations. If the "sheep" show any inclination to organize against the Greens agenda prior to implementation, the infiltraitors initiate seemingly innocent discussion using subversive statements that are intended to cause confusion and dissension. Keeps people off balance and unsure of their position.
Go look up the BHA podcast thread from last year for further details.

I presume you've seen the website GreenDecoys.com, which claims that the BHA, Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, and other similar conservation groups are all "green decoys". Be aware this site is run by the Environmental Policy Alliance, which is a front group for a PR firm called Berman & Co., owned by the notorious lobbyist Rick Berman, who was nicknamed "Dr. Evil" by his critics. They operate dozens of such "astroturf" (meaning fake grass-roots) groups on behalf of their corporate masters.

In other words, if you "follow the money" as BHA haters like to say, you'll quickly find that GreenDecoys.com is nothing but corporate lobbyist propaganda. So who's the sheep now?

[Abe89]

Upcoming rally in Rocky Mt. House Jan 26 at 1:30 51 st in front of gov building. Media will be there so numbers are needed!