Sheep Part 3

[sheepguide]

Well TJ I guess you will get your way. Im walking out of this thread for the last time. If I stay in it any longer and you through out any more comments like the degrating women one ill be off this forum as making people look like that for your own benifit is a real chicken hearted thing to do. So good luck to all on this thread and hope to chat else where!!!!

Sorry to all for my actions and comments!

Darcy

[Vindalbakken]

You have no one to blame but yourself for anything you typed.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well TJ I guess you will get your way. Im walking out of this thread for the last time. If I stay in it any longer and you through out any more comments like the degrating women one ill be off this forum as making people look like that for your own benifit is a real chicken hearted thing to do. So good luck to all on this thread and hope to chat else where!!!!

Sorry to all for my actions and comments!

Darcy

No need to be sorry. It is your love for sheep that keeps you on here.I dont beleive that most feel the way you do about them.They just say they do.They think they know everything about anything. That is BS. We all love our sheep hunting and want nothing done to change it.Maybey a few more big rams though

[Cowtown guy]

On predator control...Trappers are in the f-l-u-zones when the snow is deep. We can't reliably get there to kill cats. Can cougars be successfully trapped or snared? I know that trappers have to report cougar kills and forfeit the animal. Why not let them go after the cats if they are a feasible catch?
Are there reasons I am missing?

[rielbowhunter]

Originally Posted by JustinC

No need to be sorry. It is your love for sheep that keeps you on here.I dont beleive that most feel the way you do about them.They just say they do.They think they know everything about anything. That is BS. We all love our sheep hunting and want nothing done to change it.Maybey a few more big rams though

I second this, and i really enjoy the reading of all of this.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

On predator control...Trappers are in the f-l-u-zones when the snow is deep. We can't reliably get there to kill cats. Can cougars be successfully trapped or snared? I know that trappers have to report cougar kills and forfeit the animal. Why not let them go after the cats if they are a feasible catch?
Are there reasons I am missing?

I think cats can be controlled by hunters. Most cat seasons last as little as a week or less when the quotas are filled.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Go away for a few days and it is next to impossible to catch up with this thread. (or others that are now under lockdown)

We have had endless amounts of discussion with solutions to the sheep hunting "problems" in the province. As far as I can tell the problems with sheep hunting begin with the following resolution -

Trophy Sheep Licenses
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the waiting period for a hunter who has harvested a trophy sheep to purchase another trophy sheep license be increased from one year to five years.
BRIEF: This change would eliminate those hunters who shoot younger rams every second year. If they knew they could only shoot a ram every five years, they would be more selective. This would also allow a wider range of hunters to harvest a ram.

Some factual things I have gathered from the threads revealing problems are:

1) issues with predators
2) issues with habit loss (variety of reasons)

I've also read a few times the concern for lack of mature rams, but also read in the next breath that these elusive creatures do exist - albeit on non hunting mine lease sites, and in non hunting parks.
Based on the known issues such as increased predator populations, and loss of (quality) habitat I fail to see why Alberta residents would be so eager to get in line for a reduction of hunting opportunities. That won't help the predator or habitat issues one bit.
Why not put pressure on SRD and other wildlife groups to put more time, effort and money into things we all seem to agree on such as improving habitat (ie controlled burns) rather than going for the easy out by removing resident hunting opportunties.

Dang pure common sense! Is anyone else amazed on that based on conjuncture from "them" (who are them?) people are rushing to give up rights and opportunity. I've said it before many times that I won't accept "their" word that an issue exists, I want to see a gov study in writing, thank you.

[Duk Dog]

WILDLIFE RESOLUTION NUMBER W-3-2010
Submitted by: Zone 1
Drafted by: Zone 1
Trophy Sheep Licenses
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the waiting period for a hunter who has harvested a trophy sheep to purchase another trophy sheep license be increased from one year to five years.
BRIEF: This change would eliminate those hunters who shoot younger rams every second year. If they knew they could only shoot a ram every five years, they would be more selective. This would also allow a wider range of hunters to harvest a ram.

Curious if there is anyone from Zone 1 here on the board that can shed some light on the resolution? There are 38 resolutions going to conference. All but 3 can be traced back to a specific local club ie Lamont F&G, Sarcee F&G, Red Deer etc.. This sheep resolution is one of the three resolutions that can't be traced to a specific local club, but rather is tied to Zone 1. My understanding is that at the zone level their job is to represent their membership - in this case all clubs at the local level in Zone 1. Anyone from a zone 1 local club, or from the zone 1 regional level on the AO board and able to shed some light? If there is they may be able to help us better understand their resolution.

[Kudu]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I just got off the phone and I’m still stunned by the news. According to the person I spoke with the ABA is putting forth at least 3 resolutions to do with sheep. One would limit the maximum number that a person could kill in a lifetime, a second recommends a 3 to 5 year waiting period after a hunter kills a ram. The third I didn’t quite understand but sounded like a something that had been brought up here with a scale based on ram ages. Don’t quote me on that as I’m not sure I understood it all.
I guess it is time I dusted off my ban horses while hunting proposal, I mean if everyone is getting to pound a nail into sheep hunting I should have one too, right?
What could it hurt? What could it hurt has been fired off all over this board, well just remember this started with a handful of guys (AWS) thinking there should be older sheep on the mountain. Now look where it has snowballed to.
Here is my tally so far of the proposed resolutions to manage sheep hunters – not the sheep.
AFGA – 5 year wait resolution.
AWS/SRD- 5 year wait.
ABA – the three above.
The nameless southern AB group that is pushing for full curl only across the province.
I’m still waiting for the proposals from Trout unlimited and PF (JK).
All this and no one has yet to produce any evidence that there is a problem!

Letters are our biggest defense from needless bureaucracy and meaningless hunter management in our sport these two fellows below are really good people to address them too.

Corrigan, Rob
Provincial Big Game Specialist
Game and Priorities Species
Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 644-8011
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: rob.corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Bjorge, Ron
Executive Director, Wildlife Management
Wildlife Management Branch
Sustainable Resource Development
2nd fl Great West Life Building
9920 - 108 Street
Edmonton, AB
T5K 2M4

Phone: 780 427-9503
Fax: 780 422-9557
E-mail: ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

209,

Curious as to where you got your info from? Heres some "facts" that you may want to know before you go flapping your gums about resolution proposals...

1. ABA will not be having their AGM until the end of March. What does this have to do with the above post you ask? Well its pretty hard to put forth a resolution if it hasnt even been brought to the AGM yet...
2. after discussions with the ABA Regulations Chairman last night...no such resolutions have been brought forth by any members or affiliated clubs for the AGM...

Every week you seem to accuse a new group of dreaming up these sheep proposals, where do you get your info? I think you need a new source!

Who is it going to be next week? Maybe the Trappers Association or maybe Pheasants forever....wait I know, how about the Girl Guides, they shoot real bows at their camp so they must be to blame...

Curious as to what Conservation/Hunting Groups you belong too? You sure seem to alianate alot of groups with your posts...oh wait you dont have time for conservation...your to busy driving your argo all over Gods Creation!!!

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

We have had endless amounts of discussion with solutions to the sheep hunting "problems" in the province. As far as I can tell the problems with sheep hunting begin with the following resolution -

Trophy Sheep Licenses
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the waiting period for a hunter who has harvested a trophy sheep to purchase another trophy sheep license be increased from one year to five years.
BRIEF: This change would eliminate those hunters who shoot younger rams every second year. If they knew they could only shoot a ram every five years, they would be more selective. This would also allow a wider range of hunters to harvest a ram.

Some factual things I have gathered from the threads revealing problems are:

1) issues with predators
2) issues with habit loss (variety of reasons)

I've also read a few times the concern for lack of mature rams, but also read in the next breath that these elusive creatures do exist - albeit on non hunting mine lease sites, and in non hunting parks.
Based on the known issues such as increased predator populations, and loss of (quality) habitat I fail to see why Alberta residents would be so eager to get in line for a reduction of hunting opportunities. That won't help the predator or habitat issues one bit.
Why not put pressure on SRD and other wildlife groups to put more time, effort and money into things we all seem to agree on such as improving habitat (ie controlled burns) rather than going for the easy out by removing resident hunting opportunties.

Mature rams that can be found in general units without the protection of mines and parks. Fact is they are hard to hunt and the country they live in is hard to get to. That coupled with higher natural mortality of mature rams, reduces the success rate on harvesting these rams. As it should be - this is sheep hunting, not chasing whitetails in the back 40. I would like to see the records of sheep registrations and the age class of harvested rams - I would not be surprised if it mirrors the natural age class composition. Do not forget that these resolutions are seemingly lacking any supporting data to indicate that there is a problem in the first place.

Further, the proposed resolutions will not accomplish anything other than reducing resident opportunity for the benefit of special interest groups; less resident pressure = less competition for guided non-residents. That's what the resolution to restrict resident hunting will accomplish. So, along with habitat enhancement and predator control, reductions or elimination of non-resident sheep allocations along with all non-residents put on draw, should be front and center before anything is considered to limit resident opportunity.

IMO, putting a 5-year wait on successful sheep hunters provides no foundation in reducing the harvest of young rams. If it will, then SRD must prove it. Fact is, 'most' first time sheep hunters want their one and only ram, and any legal ram will do. From what I have seen, once these first time sheep hunters see how hard it really is, they don't want to go back, and the pressure is on to take any legal ram and get out of there. The guys that return to the sheep ranges year after year in search of another ram are far more likely to be selective and take only mature rams. Hence, the 5-year wait will acomplish nothing other than eliminate those [successful] hunters that are more likely to directly compete with guided non-residents.

I've said this a few times but I think it bears repeating. The winters of 1996-97 and 1997-98 were absolutely brutal and it caused huge mortality in bighorn sheep, especially mature rams. If you look back in early 2000, there were years where no rams were killed in WMUs like 408. Now, we are finally starting to see the sheep bounce back and for guys that spend a lot of time in the mountains, there are more and more mature rams showing up every year. Hunting is as good as it's been since the tough winters and is getting better every year. Sure it seems like there is an disproportionate number of small rams to mature rams and most of that can be traced back to Mother Nature. From what I've seen, the opportunity to kill a mature ram are as good as they've ever been. Of course we could make it better but not without servere restrictions on hunters.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Kudu

209,

Curious as to where you got your info from? Heres some "facts" that you may want to know before you go flapping your gums about resolution proposals...

1. ABA will not be having their AGM until the end of March. What does this have to do with the above post you ask? Well its pretty hard to put forth a resolution if it hasnt even been brought to the AGM yet...
2. after discussions with the ABA Regulations Chairman last night...no such resolutions have been brought forth by any members or affiliated clubs for the AGM...

Every week you seem to accuse a new group of dreaming up these sheep proposals, where do you get your info? I think you need a new source!

Who is it going to be next week? Maybe the Trappers Association or maybe Pheasants forever....wait I know, how about the Girl Guides, they shoot real bows at their camp so they must be to blame...

Curious as to what Conservation/Hunting Groups you belong too? You sure seem to alianate alot of groups with your posts...oh wait you dont have time for conservation...your to busy driving your argo all over Gods Creation!!!

LOL! Kudu ease up on the coffee man. My information came from an ABA member who is also a member here. If he gave me incorrect information I'm sure he'll correct it or I'll know how far to trust him in the future. Could I have been lied too? Sure, it has happened before and will again with human nature what it is.
I'm told much of this was talked about at the users group meeting with SRD and most of the clubs wee there. It would explain why so much information is suddenly appearing from so many points of the compass.
But you raise a good point and I do have my spies focused on them Girl Guides right now, they look too shifty when selling cookies, I think it is all a front for... LOL!
I'm a card carrying member of an AFGA affiliate club Kudu, like all good Alberta hunters are.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by Kudu

209,

Curious as to where you got your info from? Heres some "facts" that you may want to know before you go flapping your gums about resolution proposals...

1. ABA will not be having their AGM until the end of March. What does this have to do with the above post you ask? Well its pretty hard to put forth a resolution if it hasnt even been brought to the AGM yet...
2. after discussions with the ABA Regulations Chairman last night...no such resolutions have been brought forth by any members or affiliated clubs for the AGM...

Every week you seem to accuse a new group of dreaming up these sheep proposals, where do you get your info? I think you need a new source!

Who is it going to be next week? Maybe the Trappers Association or maybe Pheasants forever....wait I know, how about the Girl Guides, they shoot real bows at their camp so they must be to blame...

Curious as to what Conservation/Hunting Groups you belong too? You sure seem to alianate alot of groups with your posts...oh wait you dont have time for conservation...your to busy driving your argo all over Gods Creation!!!

Thanks for clearing that up Kudu!!
Some people post things on here and as soon as they are called on it, put the blame on someone else.

[medicmoose]

I know its been said allot before, But what problem are we trying to fix? I work in the medical field and I relate to that. When we have a patient that needs treatment the first step to treating them is problem identification. Some problems are an easy fix while others are allot more complex and have many contributing factors. One thing that you cant do is go treating a patient with out understanding the condition, prior pertinent history, and treatment options. If you cannot understand what the problem is then more diagnostic tests must be done. Never will and body be standing there with a syringe full of meds saying well should we give the med? While the other guy goes ehh sure what could it hurt. My point here is that with out knowing exactly what we are trying to fix as well as what our best treatment options and ramifications of these treatments are how can we say “what can it hurt?” If you went to a doc and what can it hurt was his answer you bet your arse you will be getting a second opinion. The sheep issue is just the same. For the guys that think the five year wait is going to get them there 180+" ram good luck. they are a Boone and Crockett trophy for a reason, and that is because they are the elite representation of their species. I will relate back to the whitetail deer how many guys have seen or shot a 180+ deer in the last 5 years? Does that mean there is a problem with the deer pop or the amount of "mature" bucks?
Just my 2 cents.

But until there is factual info that supports there is a problem I will not be willing to give up any of my hunting opportunities nor should any Albertan have to!

MM

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tonto

Thanks for clearing that up Kudu!!
Some people post things on here and as soon as they are called on it, put the blame on someone else.

While others snipe while hiding behind their keyboards. LOL!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by medicmoose

I know its been said allot before, But what problem are we trying to fix? I work in the medical field and I relate to that. When we have a patient that needs treatment the first step to treating them is problem identification. Some problems are an easy fix while others are allot more complex and have many contributing factors. One thing that you cant do is go treating a patient with out understanding the condition, prior pertinent history, and treatment options. If you cannot understand what the problem is then more diagnostic tests must be done. Never will and body be standing there with a syringe full of meds saying well should we give the med? While the other guy goes ehh sure what could it hurt. My point here is that with out knowing exactly what we are trying to fix as well as what our best treatment options and ramifications of these treatments are how can we say “what can it hurt?” If you went to a doc and what can it hurt was his answer you bet your arse you will be getting a second opinion. The sheep issue is just the same. For the guys that think the five year wait is going to get them there 180+" ram good luck. they are a Boone and Crockett trophy for a reason, and that is because they are the elite representation of their species. I will relate back to the whitetail deer how many guys have seen or shot a 180+ deer in the last 5 years? Does that mean there is a problem with the deer pop or the amount of "mature" bucks?
Just my 2 cents.

But until there is factual info that supports there is a problem I will not be willing to give up any of my hunting opportunities nor should any Albertan have to!

MM

Amen!! You can see it why is it so hard for others?

[Brent Watson]

Also just wanted to clarify things. I had an email last night from a member of our executive who read Rich's post and was suprised to read what the ABA has proposed as a resolution. Was a surprise to me as well. I did some checking and we have not recieved any such resolution so we don't know where this all started. I do know there has been much debate on sheep in Alberta and SRD are asking for input. Groups and individuals are giving that I imagine. If anyone wants to know what the ABA thinks on an issue or is doing as a participant in the Alberta Outdoors Coalition and the SRD Wildlife Management Advisory Group, what we stand for on issues, what we are doing to promote hunting, bowhunting, recreational opportunities, etc send me a PM (bcwatson@telusplanet.net) and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. I check my emails half a dozen times a day so will reply promptly. I will be at the AFGA Convention this weekend as well - been a member for 30 years and served at the local and zone level in the NW before getting involved in the ABA. Look me up there. Our banquet/convention is in Edmonton March 27 and is always fun and look forward to seeing some of you there.

[Okotokian]

Isn't hunting for truly outstanding sheep supposed to be hard?

One of the reasons I spend so much time in a tree stand 500 yards from my vehicle, waiting for mediocre deer.

[Setterman]

SRD Wildlife Management Advisory Group

I would like some clarification on this "group".

1. Who is involved?
2. What is their purpose?
3. Who chooses who is allowed to be a stake holder?

Thanks SM

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

Also just wanted to clarify things. I had an email last night from a member of our executive who read Rich's post and was suprised to read what the ABA has proposed as a resolution. Was a surprise to me as well. I did some checking and we have not recieved any such resolution so we don't know where this all started. I do know there has been much debate on sheep in Alberta and SRD are asking for input. Groups and individuals are giving that I imagine. If anyone wants to know what the ABA thinks on an issue or is doing as a participant in the Alberta Outdoors Coalition and the SRD Wildlife Management Advisory Group, what we stand for on issues, what we are doing to promote hunting, bowhunting, recreational opportunities, etc send me a PM (bcwatson@telusplanet.net) and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. I check my emails half a dozen times a day so will reply promptly. I will be at the AFGA Convention this weekend as well - been a member for 30 years and served at the local and zone level in the NW before getting involved in the ABA. Look me up there. Our banquet/convention is in Edmonton March 27 and is always fun and look forward to seeing some of you there.

Thanks for the update Brent. Taking my tinfoil hat off...but keeping it handy

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

Also just wanted to clarify things. I had an email last night from a member of our executive who read Rich's post and was suprised to read what the ABA has proposed as a resolution. Was a surprise to me as well. I did some checking and we have not recieved any such resolution so we don't know where this all started. I do know there has been much debate on sheep in Alberta and SRD are asking for input. Groups and individuals are giving that I imagine. If anyone wants to know what the ABA thinks on an issue or is doing as a participant in the Alberta Outdoors Coalition and the SRD Wildlife Management Advisory Group, what we stand for on issues, what we are doing to promote hunting, bowhunting, recreational opportunities, etc send me a PM (bcwatson@telusplanet.net) and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have. I check my emails half a dozen times a day so will reply promptly. I will be at the AFGA Convention this weekend as well - been a member for 30 years and served at the local and zone level in the NW before getting involved in the ABA. Look me up there. Our banquet/convention is in Edmonton March 27 and is always fun and look forward to seeing some of you there.

Thanks Brent! I apologize if I caused you any trouble, I thought the fellow was trustworthy and now know different.
It is refreshing to see how quickly information posted here gets around.
Good luck with your banquet.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Setterman

SRD Wildlife Management Advisory Group

I would like some clarification on this "group".

1. Who is involved?
2. What is their purpose?
3. Who chooses who is allowed to be a stake holder?

Thanks SM

Someone on the board kindly sent me what they know of this group. Seems at one meeting this was the "group":

People in attendance were reps from:
Alberta Association Of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Chapter of The Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
Alberta Tourism Parks and Recreation
Hunting For Tomorrow
Wild Sheep Foundation

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Someone on the board kindly sent me what they know of this group. Seems at one meeting this was the "group":

People in attendance were reps from:
Alberta Association Of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Chapter of The Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
Alberta Tourism Parks and Recreation
Hunting For Tomorrow
Wild Sheep Foundation

Thanks Vin,
I asked this question about 3000 posts ago and didn't get a response from anyone.

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by 209x50

While others snipe while hiding behind their keyboards. LOL!

I tried contributing with ideas and suggestions, but was told they were idiotic and moronic while wearing a dress. So, now I just stick to facts.

[Setterman]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Someone on the board kindly sent me what they know of this group. Seems at one meeting this was the "group":

People in attendance were reps from:
Alberta Association Of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Chapter of The Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
Alberta Tourism Parks and Recreation
Hunting For Tomorrow
Wild Sheep Foundation

I think the average resident hunter is drasticly under represented in this group!!!! SM


Alberta Association Of Municipal Districts & Counties - No resident hunter representation
Alberta Beef Producers- No resident hunter representation

Alberta Bowhunters Association- only represents a small portion of resident hunters
Alberta Chapter of The Wildlife Society- not aware of their role??
Alberta Fish & Game Association- Yes they represent us!!
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society- Not even close
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development- Who knows??
Alberta Tourism Parks and Recreation-No
Hunting For Tomorrow- Run by an outfitter
Wild Sheep Foundation- has links/relationships with outfitters.


To me it is fairly evident who would push new regulations to limit resident hunters!!! SM

[209x50]

I'm surprised at the list!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Tonto

I tried contributing with ideas and suggestions, but was told they were idiotic and moronic while wearing a dress. So, now I just stick to facts.

Yeah, probably a smart decision for you.

[buddyhunter]

Originally Posted by 209x50

While others snipe while hiding behind their keyboards. LOL!

Pot meet kettle, glass houses and whatnot.


You are doing the majority of name calling in all of these sheep threads and it makes it quite diffcult to seperate the truth from the fiction.

My favorite posts are the ones where you start with: "I just off the phone with someone, who I can't say who they are or what their involvement is, but they said that <insert conservation group here> is behind all of this.

Then you called out on it and it's not your fault, because you're just blabbing what someone else is telling you.

[LET R RIP]

Without enforcement all the rules and laws are just a waste of time and money. They have let hunters walk away from short sheep with no consequence what so ever. What message is this sending?

What is the problem we are trying to fix here?

Enforce the current rules and there would be more rams.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Someone on the board kindly sent me what they know of this group. Seems at one meeting this was the "group":

People in attendance were reps from:
Alberta Association Of Municipal Districts & Counties
Alberta Beef Producers
Alberta Bowhunters Association
Alberta Chapter of The Wildlife Society
Alberta Fish & Game Association
Alberta Professional Outfitters Society
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
Alberta Tourism Parks and Recreation
Hunting For Tomorrow
Wild Sheep Foundation

So this meeting must have been for many more subjects than just the reported sheep plan? It is curious why the various attendees haven't informed their membership.