Alberta's special licence draw system

[duffy4]

We had an interesting discussion tonight at our Fish & Game club meeting. It centred around the draw system. So what is your opinion?

[Rackmastr]

Needs some tweaking for sure....

Priority system is great but there are some draws that need to have some sort of 'random' draw mixed in somehow. There are some that are simply not even worth people applying in for the last 4 to 5 years....

Add in some certain percentage of 'lottery' tags within the draw code for people while still giving people with priority the chance to build and grow...

Then again, I'm headed to BC so I guess my opinion wont matter TOO much.....except from a NR standpoint!

[getasheep]

Overall I like the draw system. It is predictable and for the most part fair. What I would like to see changed is the same as Rack said. Take some of those impossible draws and put a portion of tags to lottery.

ps. Best of luck in BC Trevor.

[Rockymtnx]

X3 to what the two posters above me stated.

[HunterDave]

I guess allot of it depends on what species you hunt and what WMU's you're hunting in doesn't it?

If someone gets drawn once does their name come out of the hat or can they get drawn two or three times in a row?

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I guess allot of it depends on what species you hunt and what WMU's you're hunting in doesn't it?

If someone gets drawn once does their name come out of the hat or can they get drawn two or three times in a row?

Looks like you only know a little about the draw system and not alot about how it is supposed to work.

A number of members at the meeting thought the "priority system was a "crock" and did not work.

I always hear "stories" about one guy who has priority 5 and doesn't get drawn while his friend has no priority and gets drawn. Usually when the details come out there is an explanation as to why that happened, if indeed it did.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Overall I think it is a pretty fair way of doing business but like someone else mentioned...it would be nice if there was some chance of getting drawn regardless of priority.

With some of these tags it takes an awful long time to get to the point where you can start to expect you'll be drawn and it would be nice if a couple per species were left to chance ....regardless of priority.

The other thing I'd like changed is how many tags seem to go to outfitters.
I'd like to see that cut a bit and those tags put into the draw system for resident hunters.
The way it is now the system favours wealthy people over the average joe.
It gives one the impression that Alberta is more interested in making money through (effectively) selling wildlife than protecting it while also allowing opportunities for the common guy to hunt.

IOW the draw system is the only way for most to ever hunt some animals while the wealthy can simply buy their way to a tag if they don't feel like waiting in line or don't get drawn.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to do that at all...I'm just saying that there should be more opportunity in the draw system because that is the only route that most Albertans can afford to go and there should less favoritism built into the system for people with big wallets.

[Jimmyjjj]

I come from BC where everything is lottery. I put in for 6 species every year for 18 years and did not get drawn. Pretty discouraging for a 15 year old hunter.

I was putting in for Buffalo which is close to 80:1, but I was also putting in for does which were 4-6:1.

Then the following year I got drawn for Elk, Moose and Buffalo... Couldnt afford to go on all three hunts (got laid off) so I ended up not going for Buffalo.

Animals are far and few between where I was. I can remember going out 3-5 times/week and not seeing a single legal animal in a month.

I was so happy when I came out here and had the ability to plan my hunts. I can now decide if I can afford to go on a trip, then put in for that species in the area I want, and if I cant afford it this year I only put in for local hunts and let my priority go up on others.

I would like to see a system where it is priority to a point... and lottery to a point. I would say that for the hunts where you require a priority of 10+ it is a once in a lifetime hunt so that everyone can have a chance at it. (because you get to choose the year you get these hunts, you should be able to make it work)

I guess I am trying to be fair to everyone. What is more fair than everyone getting a turn? Priority sucks for brand new hunters who want to hunt in the best zone their first year as a hunter, but they could always hunt somewhere else their first year and then start building priority.

With a lottery I find that there are too many times that people get drawn repeatedly and others never get drawn (not fair).

[pottymouth]

I'd like to see a true trophy draw tag implemented. Where when you got drawn, you could go hunting every year until you filled that tag. Then you would have to wait the same period to re draw.

If you didn't harvest your trophy, you would have a week to turn your tag back in to Srd, at the end of every unsuccessful season. Failure to turn in the tag, would mean that the tag was filled.

My belief is that people who are more selective, would still be able to be in the field more. Increasing hunting oppoturnity, without hurting population, and contributing to local economies on an annual basis, without the pressure of " just filling the tag"

And a trophy would be in the eye of the beholder.

General draws would remain the same.

Jmo

[Jimmyjjj]

I really like Pottymouth's idea! Does that exist in some places?

[elkhunter11]

What I would most like to see, is for Albertans to not have to wait years to draw a tag, while non residents can use an outfitter to hunt every year. I am not at all in favor of lottery tags, except for tags that normally take in excess of say 12 years to draw.

[V_1]

Originally Posted by Jimmyjjj

I really like Pottymouth's idea!

Same here. I also would like to see all sheep on draw, but tag allowing to go after either ram or eve leaving choice to the hunter.

[oldmaster]

I agree with pesky672 the GUIDES get way to many tags! We spend 4 or five years to get draw for muley and 10+ years to get drawn for moose. In my eyes you should have to be a resident to get a moose tag. Why should guides get any tags! they say every year there is less resident hunters in alberta but who wants to wait that long to get a moose tag or muley tag.
once again saskatchewan fish and wildlife have us. NO muley, no moose tags for non resident hunters. Guides can only operate in northern sask. for white tails. If guides could only operate in the green zone in northern alberta maybe alberta landowners wouldn't be so against hunters. Seems like the only landowners who like guides are the ones getting paid by the guides.

the draw system works well we just need to put the tags back in the hands of alberta hunters

[Jimmyjjj]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

What I would most like to see, is for Albertans to not have to wait years to draw a tag, while non residents can use an outfitter to hunt every year. I am not at all in favor of lottery tags, except for tags that normally take in excess of say 12 years to draw.

I dont think that is a non-resident only thing... I think that is a money thing. If you want, you can hunter every year through and outfitter too.

While it does suck that we have to wait, and I am not saying the current system is perfect, I would rather it be this way so that if I am somewhere else I dont have to plan 12 years ahead of time to get a guided hunt.

V_1, you can already hunt nontrophy sheep via draw. Combining ram and ewe seasons would greatly reduce opportunity. Puting sheep all on draw would mean only 1 or 2 tags in a lifetime. Terrible idea! For existing draws where only top pools can get a tag, id love to see changes giving new guys a chance, for all species.

[V_1]

I know that. But average life expectency of trophy ram is not more that half an hour after opening. I think current general tag situation only reduces quality of tropys for those who is interested in them as biggest rams got killed off first.

\\1 or 2 tags in a lifetime.

Huh? How's that? there are areas where waiting times are quite resonable.

[elkhunter11]

I dont think that is a non-resident only thing... I think that is a money thing. If you want, you can hunter every year through and outfitter too.

An Alberta resident can't use an outfitters allocation.

[V_1]

\\An Alberta resident can't use an outfitters allocation.

That was my understanding too. Use (other) services - yes, get a tag via outfitter - no.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by V_1

I know that. But average life expectency of trophy ram is not more that half an hour after opening. I think current general tag situation only reduces quality of tropys for those who is interested in them as biggest rams got killed off first.

\\1 or 2 tags in a lifetime.

Huh? How's that? there are areas where waiting times are quite resonable.

THis makes no sense....

Biggest rams are killed off first.... 1/2 hour life expectancy?

Where did all the 8-12 year old rams shot this year come from?



Big Rams are not easy.... you have got to be willing to hunt hard year after year for them.

The worst thing we could do for Trophy Sheep hunting is to put any of our existing general seasons on Draw.



Draw issues with high wait times or odds are going to get much worse. We need to choose a system to deal with "impoosible" draws and draws with over a 10 year wait.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by V_1

\\An Alberta resident can't use an outfitters allocation.

That was my understanding too. Use (other) services - yes, get a tag via outfitter - no.

What "Other" outfitter services are allowed to be used by Residents?

Originally Posted by V_1

I know that. But average life expectency of trophy ram is not more that half an hour after opening. I think current general tag situation only reduces quality of tropys for those who is interested in them as biggest rams got killed off first.

\\1 or 2 tags in a lifetime.

Huh? How's that? there are areas where waiting times are quite resonable.

Are there any trophy sheep draws with a reasonable wait time right now? And there are sheep in most areas after opening day. We saw over 10 legal rams in one week this year in huntable territory, I got the smallest one due to bad luck but a legal ram anyways. 2 were book animals,my partner will he back after them next year. There's only around 150 rams harvested in Alberta a year,as soon as it goes on draw there will be many many applicants for a few tags. Look at the 438 draws...
**By bad luck I mean bad timing, I'm still very grateful for my first ram.

[Jimmyjjj]

I am sorry, I didn't do any research. I did not know that you could not hire an outfitter to take you on a hunt and use one of their tags if you are a resident.

[Speckle55]

Like the priority system..

If you had Sheep(Ram) draw on lottery and a very lucky hunter got drawn 3 times in 10 years you would have the other 2000 sheep hunter's wanting to hang the SYSTEM ADMINISTRATORS!!!!Wr%20Sheep%20Replica%202.jpg

would that be fair?

these other hunters that say they have not got drawn and should have please ask them to get the paper work off ALTA RELM and get them to ask the other person in question to get thiers and compare ... SOME PEOPLE NEED TO COMPLAIN ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THEIR LIVES!!!

Food for Thought
David

[huntinstuff]

My only complaint is not getting a tag when my priority was higher than someone who did get the tag

That should never happen. Both same wmu too

[V_1]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

THis makes no sense....

Biggest rams are killed off first.... 1/2 hour life expectancy?

Where did all the 8-12 year old rams shot this year come from?



Big Rams are not easy.... you have got to be willing to hunt hard year after year for them.

The worst thing we could do for Trophy Sheep hunting is to put any of our existing general seasons on Draw.



Draw issues with high wait times or odds are going to get much worse. We need to choose a system to deal with "impoosible" draws and draws with over a 10 year wait.

My point was to allow wider range of animals to be legal to hunt. One Sheep Tag and then let hunter decide what is his priority - larger trophy or something else. I admit I don't have a solution for 'impossible draws' for trophy rams. This year for instance I bought trophy tag ONLY because I got hosed on non-trophy. I assume I'm not alone.

[Speckle55]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

My only complaint is not getting a tag when my priority was higher than someone who did get the tagThat should never happen. Both same wmu too

Please get the paper work from ALTA RELM and the other person's too .. we all would love to see that paper work as with the current system it can,t happen unless you are putting in for more than one Draw area for that draw.

so if a Draw for your only choice is taking 3 to get drawn and you have 999 yourself for 4 years.. the year you apply you will be the first person to get drawn and it will show 1 priorty 4 got drawn and the rest will be priorty 3 or 2 if the number of available tags allow so period.

hear say is sometimes hear say.. never assume anything .. but where humans can error will that happen of course it will.
David

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Please get the paper work from ALTA RELM and the other person's too .. we all would love to see that paper work as with the current system it can,t happen unless you are putting in for more than one Draw area for that draw.

so if a Draw for your only choice is taking 3 to get drawn and you have 999 yourself for 4 years.. the year you apply you will be the first person to get drawn and it will show 1 priorty 4 got drawn and the rest will be priorty 3 or 2 if the number of available tags allow so period.

hear say is sometimes hear say.. never assume anything .. but where humans can error will that happen of course it will.
David

That's the way that it's supposed to work but I've experienced the same thing. My buddy got drawn for moose at pri 0 and I didn't get drawn at pri 1. I'll bet that this thread could be filled with similar stories.........all first hand. I have a problem with that as well. I figure that they should get the current system working before trying to "enhance" it with a new system.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I guess allot of it depends on what species you hunt and what WMU's you're hunting in doesn't it?

If someone gets drawn once does their name come out of the hat or can they get drawn two or three times in a row?

Originally Posted by duffy4

Looks like you only know a little about the draw system and not alot about how it is supposed to work.

A number of members at the meeting thought the "priority system was a "crock" and did not work.

I always hear "stories" about one guy who has priority 5 and doesn't get drawn while his friend has no priority and gets drawn. Usually when the details come out there is an explanation as to why that happened, if indeed it did.

Duffy.....RTFQ. My questions weren't asking about the current draw system, they were addressing the issue of changing part or all of it to a lottery that previous posters had mentioned. The current system is pretty simple, when it's working correctly.......wait your turn.

I only hunt deer and moose. For moose I usually get drawn every 2, maybe 3, years for the WMU that I hunt in. MUCH different than hunting some other species. Also, if half of that draw went to lottery logic tells me that if I don't win the lottery, my 2 year draw would become a 4 or 6 year draw for me if I didn't win the lottery. If the entire draw went to lottery and the drawn names stayed in the hat then potentially I could never get drawn.

So, in my situation I'm okay with getting drawn every couple of years for moose as opposed to a lottery system. How could I support a system that would add the length of time that it would take for me to get my moose draw?

It sounds to me like it would result in the same exact thing happening to everyone if a lottery was brought in. The only people that I could see supporting such a system are people that know they will be drawn in the very near future because after they get drawn it would increase their chance of getting drawn again sooner and anyone that has either not entered the draw or is looking at a long wait to get drawn.

If the comments at your meeting about the draw system being a "crock" were about lower pri people getting drawn before higher pri people then I agree with them and it should be fixed.

Does that make sense to you and do my questions seem relevant now?

[Jimmyjjj]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

If the comments at your meeting about the draw system being a "crock" were about lower pri people getting drawn before higher pri people then I agree with them and it should be fixed.

I completely agree. I was unaware of this issue. Are they doing the draw by hand? If they have a computer doing it I dont understand how this type of error can occur unless the programmer had no clue about the requirements of the system.

[albertabighorn]

Its a great system compaired to some states ways of doing things