Albertal Wolf Management

[walking buffalo]

This is not just for the sheep guys. As many of you are aware, wolf populations in Alberta are increasing rapidly and dramatically. Our hunting opportunities for other species are being effected by this fact.

Once again, it has been difficult to get the Alberta Government to disclose information and updated management objectives regarding wolves.

With this thread; please provide links to related informaton and contacts, present your observations, give your opinions relating to wolf and predator management in Alberta.

Hopefully some good ideas, education, and action will result from your posts.


Dale

[Hagar]

It has been my observations that over the last 10 years I am seeing and hearing about more wolf activity ever year,and that worries me.Before moving to Alberta I lived in the Yukon for 25 years and have seen what kind of damage wolves can do.I have also seen what effect a wolf kill can have.

In the early 80's there was a wolf kill program to reduce wolves in a couple WMU's in order to help the caribou population.With in a couple years the caribou had recovered and with in a couple more years the wolf population had also recovered.The natural balance had been restored and that area has been doing well since.How ever when they went to do another wolf kill in a different area the Animal Rights Groups raised such a stink that the plan was abandoned and "more humane" methods where employed ,such as sterilization of the alfa males.From what little I can find the results are less then one would like,and at least one herd of caribou seem to be on the verge of being wiped out in the area of one of the present programs.

In a quick search on the net it sounds like Alaska is looking again at a wolf kill program,however there is a lot of negative press regarding this plan.As much as I would like to see such a program here I am not sure we we see it due to the negative reactions that would come from the animal rights groups.They seem so out of touch with reality,well you know what I want to say.

In the area I live it is possible to get out into a fair amount of winter range and hunt wolves,I have yet to get one though.Other ares are nearly impossible to get into so it is hard for us to do anything on our own.I also am not sure how much effect hunters alone can have the whole wolf problem.But a few less sure isn't going to hurt and is better then none at all.

It has been my experience that wolves are very smart and wary,they are difficult to trap and hunt.In most of the mountain areas you can not use bait to hunt wolves and maybe if this was changed it would help.Another possibility would be a bounty on wolves.

[Lone_Wolf]

I agree, the wolf population is on the rise and could cause problems for moose and deer population in my area. However, I am on the fence about it all. To me, wolves, are the most beautiful animals on Earth. I love seeing their tracks all over, hearing their howls, and even better having a chance of seeing one when I am out calling. I would hate to see their population drop to times when seeing just a track was a rarity around this area.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf

I agree, the wolf population is on the rise and could cause problems for moose and deer population in my area. However, I am on the fence about it all. To me, wolves, are the most beautiful animals on Earth. I love seeing their tracks all over, hearing their howls, and even better having a chance of seeing one when I am out calling. I would hate to see their population drop to times when seeing just a track was a rarity around this area.

I'm with you, love to know there are wolves out there, somewhere, same with G bears, orange cats, and all the smaller killers.
I am spending too much time for my own good right now researching and compiling info. regarding; wolves, ungulates, govt., ranchers, hunters, special interest groups.

My initial impression from this search, is that wolves are already having a dramatic impact on prey populations, and the govt., despite knowing this, is reluctant to get serious on managing predators, but is happy to experiment with scientific theory, kneel before anti-kill-anything (except humans who hunt) protesters.

I'll organize some links and post them soon, in the meantime, please voice your thoughts, experiences, and information.

I'm having a hard time understanding why all the sheep hunters (Hagar not included)are not speaking up here. Do I have to disagree with you first to get a response?

sg,sh,209,ishoot,setter,vindal,stinky c,gmule,slh,juc,tont,ramc,7mag,ga,...etc

Whatever your opinion is, you are all wrong!

[sheepguide]

Im am like all on here that think the government needs to act but they do have a very difficult task at doing these things politicaly correct with all the anti killing people out there. It not as easy as just organizing a wolf cull. There seems to be a few studies ongoing and would be nice to see any results these may have. I have been doing some serches to try and get some population increase numbers but as of yet have nothing that is current.
I too love to see and hear the wolves and im sure everyone here does but there needs to be a balance and that is where the studies need to be done. What is the number of wolves that will work in harmony with all other species. They are needed but I feel have past the number that is healthy both to them and to the prey they live off.
Hope more people put in their opinions and any info they may have or can find.

I know this is a wolf thread but just wanted to state that I beleive that the wolf management should go hand in hand with a cougar managment program. They both need to be handled at the same time to get lower predator kills on ungulates! As with some animals cougars are harder on them than wolves.
SG

[Vindalbakken]

Predator control costs the gov't money and is a political hot potato.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I know this is a wolf thread but just wanted to state that I beleive that the wolf management should go hand in hand with a cougar managment program. They both need to be handled at the same time to get lower predator kills on ungulates! As with some animals cougars are harder on them than wolves.
SG

Certainly a very valid point and one that SH referenced to in another thread. Without knowing which particular animals are targeting particular herds of sheep a successful cull of either species may be completely ineffective in aiding the target sheep herd. To have proper effectiveness culls would need to be targeted to particular packs and/or animals. That is outside the scope of ability of the recreational hunter.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Predator control costs the gov't money and is a political hot potato.

So is everything else they do. The difference is this is needed in alberta more than ever.I also think the kitty cats are over populated and harvest numbers need to increase.I just dont want to see a cull like the BS cwd.But maybe they hunt them in a chopper like the deer.more bang for the buck and they would get more.

[whitetailhntr]

There is no doubt predators have a place in the eco system but they must be managed as well.Wolves and cats are efficient killers, genetically designed that way.They act on instinct , they eat when they are hungry.I have witnessed the reduction of ungulates in the mountain wmu's and around the calgary area due to the rise of preditors and mismanagement of game and habitat. I remember goin to the Ya Ha Tinda on a regular basis just to watch the elk, be it summer or winter. Last time i was there i never seen one, that was in January when we use to see them by the hundreds on the flats by the ranch buildings.The fact that only 15 tags are alloted for bull elk there is testament in itself,use to be 150 in 98.Granted there are factors contributing the predator thing is at the top of the list. I can't speak for sheep cause i don't and won't hunt them. My hunting partners are sheep freeks( it really is a disease) and they are seeing less of them all the time. The private land i hunt around home has less deer...a lot less and cat sightings are way up.

I'm not a biologist nor do i play one on the internet but its what i have seen. I go out and hunt wolves when i can and have even been close to a few.no luck yet. If i could afford a cat hunt i would do it in an instant....maybe next year if the economy gets better. In the mean time i will read this and other threads and try and gain some knowledge about it. And i will keep hunting wolves, coyotes and bears.Maybe a cougar someday.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Predator control costs the gov't money and is a political hot potato.

Wolf studies do cost money but how much is paid out to ranchers to cover losses to wolves? Might not cover the total cost of things but would for sure lower total costs and keep some ranchers off their case.

I dont envy them dealing with the pollitical aspect off dealing with all sides on this subject.

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Predator control costs the gov't money and is a political hot potato.

Who's money???? You mean our money.

[Vindalbakken]

No, the anti-hunting/anti-gun people's money. There are not enough of "us" to say that it is our money funding such an endeavor so we need to convince the gov't why they should go to all the other people and ask them to spend their money on it.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by whitetailhntr

. I remember goin to the Ya Ha Tinda on a regular basis just to watch the elk, be it summer or winter. Last time i was there i never seen one, that was in January when we use to see them by the hundreds on the flats by the ranch buildings.The fact that only 15 tags are alloted for bull elk there is testament in itself,use to be 150 in 98.

That is very true. The Ya Ha used to be an amazing place to veiw elk in the winter months and now isnt worth the drive. Elk numbers are unbeleivably low compared to 10 years ago. I did hear that it was a better year at the ranch than the last few but the weather was right to move a few bulls in this year.
The bighorn sheep used to also be in decent numbers here. Winter used to see many big rams and lots of smaller rams and ewes on them hills behind the buildings. This year the two times ive been there and one was a trip we hiked that whole ridge up there we saw 20 to 30 head with the largest ram being just legal. And this area has been opened up with logging and burns in the last few years.
Places like the Panther that used to have a couple world class elk come out of it every year now is lucky to have a couple legal bulls a year come out. Alot of this area was burned in the Dog Rib fire and hasnt seemed to show any signs of the elk poulatins thriving in these burns so that leaves predators at the of the list as hunters are not taking enough animals in these areas to even put a slight dent in the population.

These areas show the affects of predators as there is some habitat change being done here .
SG

[JustinC]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

No, the anti-hunting/anti-gun people's money. There are not enough of "us" to say that it is our money funding such an endeavor so we need to convince the gov't why they should go to all the other people and ask them to spend their money on it.

I bet they dont when they pay the rancher for his dead livestock.Did they ask you when they sent millions in aid to other counties?No so what make this any different.This is there job to manage the wildlife.If in needs more reduction in one species they up the tags or the other way. Same goes for predators.But this is not as easy for hunters to do in the mountains where we have a lot harder access in the winter do to closures and massive amounts of snow.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

No, the anti-hunting/anti-gun people's money. There are not enough of "us" to say that it is our money funding such an endeavor so we need to convince the gov't why they should go to all the other people and ask them to spend their money on it.

Your very right and if the Gov't turned a blind eye to these Anti's they would loose so much funding it would have a bad efect on the rest of the situations that they are dealing with in our enviroment and wildlife.
Its bad when this stuff controls how things are done but in the end money talks and right now us hunters are fairly poor compared to the anti's I think.

[whitetailhntr]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

No, the anti-hunting/anti-gun people's money. There are not enough of "us" to say that it is our money funding such an endeavor so we need to convince the gov't why they should go to all the other people and ask them to spend their money on it.

When you put it that way...we are screwed

[Rocks]

Looking forward to any information from your research WB.

From my personal experience and most other people I know who spend time "out there" the wolf population is definately increasing. There are a couple areas I hunt where I see a lot of wolf sign and not much ungulate sign, the opposite of what it was 10 years ago. A couple years ago in a high basin sheep camp we had wolves howling down to camp from a ridge above that was probably at 7000 ft, and while up there later saw wolf track running the mountain top ridge, definately in sheep only country.

One thing I'd like to see is the ATA and or the Gov't put some pressure on or give incentives to trappers to target wolves. There's a lot of traplines out there that that if actively trapped for wolves would put somewhat of a dent in the population.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rocks

One thing I'd like to see is the ATA and or the Gov't put some pressure on or give incentives to trappers to target wolves. There's a lot of traplines out there that that if actively trapped for wolves would put somewhat of a dent in the population.

And in the mountain zones that have no motorized vehicles these trappers can skidoo these zones so are our first line of defense.
Dont get me wrong there are many awesome trappers in Alberta but there are also some that have a trap line just to say they have a trap line. They only trap what they need to to keep the line.

[ishootbambi]

the 2 areas im most familiar with are the cypress hills and k-country. only a few years ago, there was an overpopulation of elk in the cypress hills. so many that a special management hunt was held in february to try and reduce the herd. today, elk numbers are at an all time low in the park and according to michelle bacon, the lady in charge of the study of the cougars in the hills, it is the most densely populated cougar habitat known in north america. being it is a provincial park, it is unlikely to see a cougar hunt out there, and given the fact the elk hunt has only been held as a management tool, there is fear that it could be shut down. thankfully thats just a rumor for now that hopefully wont materialize. as for k-country, wolf and cougar sightings are up for me personally over the last few years. the elk numbers seem to be holding fair, but moose are way down. tags for moose in that area reflect that. i really dont know how to go about killing wolves though, so i hope to learn something fromm this one. i have seen the buggers, but have yet to kill one. it isnt because i havent tried, but i cant seem to get close enough. the few times i have been in range i was on a quad and they were gone by the time i got off.

[walking buffalo]

Not organized, nor all Alberta based. Some recent wolf info.

Still waiting for info. direct from AB Gov. re. populations, impacts, new management directions.

http://www.biology.ualberta.ca/facul...a_Needs_04.pdf ***SEE pg.10 #27
http://www.ab-conservation.com/go/ta...vey_Season.pdf See Table 10-20. Moose down by 50% avg.
http://www.srd.alberta.ca/Newsroom/M...nualReport.pdf Some Info. on the money
http://www.afga.org/documents.html?fileID=492 see number w-1, w-10
http://www.aenweb.ca/media/woodland-...nction-alberta
http://www.albertaregulations.ca/tra...fur-production Trapper's wolf catch numbers
http://idahostatejournal.com/news/lo...cc4c03286.html
http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/2...s-at-wolf-kill
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildl...ry/410461.html
http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildl...ry/934085.html

[fisher Gord]

Okay ASRD does know there is a growing wolf problem. there will not be a wolf cull to benifit wildlife. there has been wolf control to help cattle ranchers. So we need more beef producers to ask for wolf control. No provincial harvest incentive [bounty] but there are a couple of areas with harvest incentives in the area. Education, If you want to hunt for your venison, you need to control your wolves. wolves will impact a population in their area and cause high and low cycles of population leaving little for us to hunt. Wolves are expected to be the #1 predator complaint in the coming years.

[Setterman]

I think the pressure for more wolf studies should be directed at the ACA who gets millions of our dollars from hunting licenses. I personally would like to see our hunting dollars allocated to something like this over some of their "salamander" studies. Cheers SM

[ganderblaster]

Originally Posted by Setterman

I think the pressure for more wolf studies should be directed at the ACA who gets millions of our dollars from hunting licenses. I personally would like to see our hunting dollars allocated to something like this over some of their "salamander" studies. Cheers SM

Well said!Does anyone know of the any legal hunting method that makes a real wolf population reduction?From what little knowledge I have on this subject it would seem that trappers would be the best at reducing these critters.Would their be some way to compensate them for doing this as it would seem logical they would be interested in additional revenue being fur prices are so low

[ishootbambi]

ill say it again, i think there are too many wolves and cougars out there, but this began in the sheep discussion. the original topic was how to have more big mature rams in the hills, and im not sure how this will help with that particular problem. it seems agreed that sheep numbers overall are not the problem, but that the number of nature rams is. im sure wolves eat some rams, but clearly the highest cause of ram mortality is hunters. as long as the dead rams from hunters total around 140 as has been represented, i cant see the number of mature rams changing. if the entire herd increased, there would no doubt be more rams total, so the 140 number could rise, but i just dont see size increasing. same goes for improving habitat. again it could help overall numbers, and the size of just legal rams may increase a little, but i dont see how it helps allow rams to grow older. i definitely do see elk and moose numbers going up if we can reduce predators and thats good news.
as for how to reduce preds, i think we will need help from the trappers on that. that sure seems the case with coyotes on the prairies anyway. even the most successful coyote killers i know come nowhere close to the numbers that trappers get. maybe instead of bashing APOS we could talk sweet to them and see if they would help fund a program to encourage trappers to take more wolves. between them and ACA, the best interests of hunters, outfitters and wildlife could all be represented...a rare feat these days.

[ishootbambi]

oops, sorry to steal your thunder gander, it seems we were typing at the same time.

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Well said!Does anyone know of the any legal hunting method that makes a real wolf population reduction?From what little knowledge I have on this subject it would seem that trappers would be the best at reducing these critters.Would their be some way to compensate them for doing this as it would seem logical they would be interested in additional revenue being fur prices are so low

Shooting from airplanes and helicopters is very effective but SRD frowns on it unless they are doing it themselves. Poisoning is very effective too but not without risks.

Sadly, I don't think hunters will ever make a dent in the wolf population. We basically have unregulated hunting for them now. Trappers can be effective but again that comes with a whole list of challenges. I can't see any meaningful reduction coming without SRD involvement.....or private contractors

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Shooting from airplanes and helicopters is very effective but SRD frowns on it unless they are doing it themselves. Poisoning is very effective too but not without risks.

Sadly, I don't think hunters will ever make a dent in the wolf population. We basically have unregulated hunting for them now. Trappers can be effective but again that comes with a whole list of challenges. I can't see any meaningful reduction coming without SRD involvement.....or private contractors

I'm sorry to say I agree with you. For the terrain and country along with the time of the year that this is most efficiently done, air shooting or poison are the two most successful tactics. I'd be happy to quote on a contract basis though.

ill say it again, i think there are too many wolves and cougars out there, but this began in the sheep discussion. the original topic was how to have more big mature rams in the hills, and im not sure how this will help with that particular problem. it seems agreed that sheep numbers overall are not the problem, but that the number of nature rams is. im sure wolves eat some rams, but clearly the highest cause of ram mortality is hunters. as long as the dead rams from hunters total around 140 as has been represented, i cant see the number of mature rams changing. if the entire herd increased, there would no doubt be more rams total, so the 140 number could rise, but i just dont see size increasing. same goes for improving habitat. again it could help overall numbers, and the size of just legal rams may increase a little, but i dont see how it helps allow rams to grow older.

I agree. Without severely impacting hunting/harvest opportunity with a draw or full-curl regulation, we'll never significantly increase the age-structure of rams. There are too many hunters for the number of rams. If we want to maintain the opportunity we enjoy today, we will have to work hard to find older rams. Thankfully, 11 years of easy winters have helped both numbers and the numbers of old rams increase. It should continue to improve until the next tough winter.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

. the original topic was how to have more big mature rams in the hills,...........but clearly the highest cause of ram mortality is hunters.

So, if we want more big rams on the hills we would need to stop killing big rams. People who shoot big sheep are the cause of less big sheep on the mountains. Putting in restrictions to stop the killing of 4/5 curl rams will put increased pressure on the big rams and there will be even less of them. Come up with a plan to stop shooting big rams and the number of big rams on the hills will increase - even if 140 4/5 curl rams are killed every year. Obviously those who are pushing for this change would not want to see a lifetime ban on sheep hunting for everyone who tags a B&C horn.

This is why folks like 209 have been agreeing that the only way to achieve such a goal is with a draw. But they, and the majority of sheep hunters, are not willing to give up on the access to sheep hunting that exists just so a few of the hunters will have greater success on what they feel to be a "true" trophy. The determination of a trophy lies with each and every hunter and is not for any one hunter (or group of hunters) to impose on any one else. It is the absolute refusal of some (bambi) to acknowledge this fact that is frustrating to no end in these discussions.

Heck, in the much vaunted Montana there are 180 people a year who get a chance to shoot a male sheep - any male sheep. Any age. Any size. Only sheep over 1/2 curl need to be plugged. For every guy that takes a 2 year old ram there will be one more "mature" ram that does not get shot at. True, they have unlimited areas where you can get in the race to be the first guy to tag a sheep and shut down the season. (before anyone wants to get real technical about the few areas with 3/4 curl rules this is a paraphrase of the regulations but I believe fairly represents the gist of the system).

[sheepguide]

[QUOTE=Vindalbakken;512410]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

. the original topic was how to have more big mature rams in the hills,...........but clearly the highest cause of ram mortality is hunters./QUOTE]
So, if we want more big rams on the hills we would need to stop killing big rams. People who shoot big sheep are the cause of less big sheep on the mountains. Putting in restrictions to stop the killing of 4/5 curl rams will put increased pressure on the big rams and there will be even less of them. Come up with a plan to stop shooting big rams and the number of big rams on the hills will increase - even if 140 4/5 curl rams are killed every year. Obviously those who are pushing for this change would not want to see a lifetime ban on sheep hunting for everyone who tags a B&C horn.

This is why folks like 209 have been agreeing that the only way to achieve such a goal is with a draw. But they, and the majority of sheep hunters, are not willing to give up on the access to sheep hunting that exists just so a few of the hunters will have greater success on what they feel to be a "true" trophy. The determination of a trophy lies with each and every hunter and is not for any one hunter (or group of hunters) to impose on any one else. It is the absolute refusal of some (bambi) to acknowledge this fact that is frustrating to no end in these discussions.

Heck, in the much vaunted Montana there are 180 people a year who get a chance to shoot a male sheep - any male sheep. Any age. Any size. Only sheep over 1/2 curl need to be plugged. For every guy that takes a 2 year old ram there will be one more "mature" ram that does not get shot at. True, they have unlimited areas where you can get in the race to be the first guy to tag a sheep and shut down the season.

Ok guys this is a wolf study thread and are discussing such here. We understand you are the only ones right on the sheep threads so leave it there! The two biggest guys harping about guys beating there chest over there are in my opinion the ones that seem to have no or very limited experience in the topic!! We are talking wolves so if you feel the need to bash or say everyone is wrong at least do it about the topic at hand!!!
Thanks
SG