$$$ whitetail allocations $$$

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There draw system puts them behind us. A lottery draw for all moose that aren't way north where you have no clue whether you will get a tag or not.

Their bighorn opportunities aren't even remotely close to what we have

They don't have antelope

Their Whitetail and Mule deer opportunities are about 10-15% of what we have here

They definitely have a few species we don't, but for availability we have the best system there is. And our priority draw is the envy of everybody, we know almost exactly when we are going to hunt and can plan out multiple years in advance

You have mentioned pronghorn rwice as a species that you can't hunt in other locations, but with tags as limited as they are, and the number of people applying, a person that has not been entering, and that has no priority, may never draw a tag in their lifetime. If you started from scratch now, and the herd remained stable, a 20 year wait is likely a reasonable expectation, but one or two bad years like we had several years ago, could easily extend that to 40 or 50 years. The reality is, that with no priority now, you will likely never draw a pronghorn tag in Alberta. We have already lost the grizzly hunt, and other than a few lucky lottery winners, the goat hunt, and pronghorn will likely soon be another species that most people will never have the opportunity to hunt in Alberta. And as more and more opportunity is lost, the government should be making sure that the resident hunters at least get to enjoy the opportunities that remain. In that regard, Saskatchewan is doing a far better job than Alberta is.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There draw system puts them behind us. A lottery draw for all moose that aren't way north where you have no clue whether you will get a tag or not.

Their bighorn opportunities aren't even remotely close to what we have

They don't have antelope

Their Whitetail and Mule deer opportunities are about 10-15% of what we have here

They definitely have a few species we don't, but for availability we have the best system there is. And our priority draw is the envy of everybody, we know almost exactly when we are going to hunt and can plan out multiple years in advance

...There draw system is a lottery, but that doesn't put them behind us. There are plenty of general Moose oppurtunities where we have none.
... Bighorn? Plenty of Bighorn and Sheep in BC.
... No Antelope? Luckily a BC resident can apply for an antelope draw in AB just like we do. What about the species they can hunt that we can't like Turkey, Blacktail deer, Fallow deer, Bison, and Grizzley?
... The area's I am used to hunting Deer have much more Mule deer then in AB, and Whitetail are making a big comeback, Though I like AB better for Whitetail.
It seems that you are placing a lot of weight on the kind of "System" we have here in AB when I thought we were talking about hunting oppurtunities. I agree that we have a better draw system, but lets see what the NDP does with that soon, as long as a lot of other oppurtunities we now enjoy.
In AB most of the land is privately owned and permission can be hard to get. Even our crown land is leased and often you need permission. BC has crown land almost everywhere. BC also has much longer general seasons then AB does.
I would get my Brother who is a BC resident to add to this discussion, but he is out hunting Fallow and Blacktail deer along with Wolf and Cougar as I type this. Oh, did I forget to mention that you can hunt Deer in parts of BC year round?
I don't expect to change anyones mind on this subject, and I agree that we have a better draw system, but AB does not come close to BC when it comes to hunting oppurtunities for residents. Thats ok though, I often have people here in AB tell me the fishing is better here then in BC.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If we have game to spare of certain species, I have no issues with nonresidents coming here.

It's when our numbers are down and wait times are long for residents and resident youth that it's a tough pill to swallow.

Saskatchewan has a couple things right IMHO.

LC

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly, if we have a general season with unlimited tags, I have no problem with non residents hunting big game here. But when a resident has to wait several years to draw a tag in a given wmu, then there should be no non residents hunting that species in that wmu. And you are correct, in that Saskatchewan does a better job at looking after the resident hunters.

Originally Posted by chuck

Outfitter allocations have been a very high contributor to lack of hunting opportunity for me where I hunt.

The big game species we have in Alberta has absolutely nothing to do with outfitter allocations.

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries that currently offer hunting safaris; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

[diamond k]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Alberta is the single greatest province/state in all of North America for resident hunting opportunities.

Name one better, and I'll never comment on this forum again.

Stop bitching about what you don't have, and be happy you have more then anybody else !!!

Jealousy is a wicked disease and it will consume you.

Wow just when I thought outfitters spewing crap could not get any more bizarre once again Tork you lower the bar.

Here are a few locations I have experience with that have better systems that allow for non residents to hunt most species but have better systems in place to protect resident hunters and respect wildlife populations before the rights of condescending outfitters in Alberta.

Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Sask, BC, Alaska ,Yukon and in many ways Texas

Feel free to add to the list

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

Your right, I don't get your argument. What the heck does it matter what they are doing in a third world country? We are talking about the situation that we have here in AB. Please stop clouding the issue with ridiculous comparisons that have absouloutly no bearing to this discussion. I'm surprised you haven't brought up the famine in Somalia, or the drug cartells in Mexico. Let's try to stay on point.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

You might want to do some more research before telling Alberta residents to book a hunt with an outfitter, using an outfitter allocation. How about you pick up the phone, call up an outfitter, and try and book a hunt using one of his outfitter allocations. Then post and let us know how you made out.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You might want to do some more research before telling Alberta residents to book a hunt with an outfitter, using an outfitter allocation. How about you pick up the phone, call up an outfitter, and try and book a hunt using one of his outfitter allocations. Then post and let us know how you made out.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by diamond k

Wow just when I thought outfitters spewing crap could not get any more bizarre once again Tork you lower the bar.

Here are a few locations I have experience with that have better systems that allow for non residents to hunt most species but have better systems in place to protect resident hunters and respect wildlife populations before the rights of condescending outfitters in Alberta.

Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Sask, BC, Alaska ,Yukon and in many ways Texas

Feel free to add to the list

I said resident opportunity.

How many WMUs in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming have over the counter sheep tags you can use every year of your life ?

You killing any Bison, sheep, Cougar, Goats or Turkey in Saskatchewan?

How about Whitetail, Cougar, Muledeer, Antelope, Turkey, bighorn or Bobcat in Alaska or the Yukon ?

Texas ? Ya, they have some great whitetail, Mule deee and hogs. Or do you mean high fence as well ?

Overall we have tons of opportunities, that's all I meant. BC is close like I said, but the lottery system is terrible compared to our priority system.

Also please remember I'm a resident hunter in Alberta too, I have nothing to do with outfitting in this province.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Your right, I don't get your argument. What the heck does it matter what they are doing in a third world country? We are talking about the situation that we have here in AB. Please stop clouding the issue with ridiculous comparisons that have absouloutly no bearing to this discussion. I'm surprised you haven't brought up the famine in Somalia, or the drug cartells in Mexico. Let's try to stay on point.

My apologies, apparently the scathing sarcasm in my comment went right over your head. Let's try this instead: as our population grows, the hunting opportunities for Alberta residents will continue to decline. Higher priority will be required to get draws; that means more years between draws for Alberta residents.
The Guides and Outfitters profit from, and lobby for the continuation of the existing system, at the expense of the Alberta residents. Which is no different than what goes on in African countries with guided hunting safaris. The only real difference is the dollar value of the hunt.

The residents (that would be us) should be happy with what we have, look at the game animals that we could potentially hunt, if the tags were available.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You might want to do some more research before telling Alberta residents to book a hunt with an outfitter, using an outfitter allocation. How about you pick up the phone, call up an outfitter, and try and book a hunt using one of his outfitter allocations. Then post and let us know how you made out.

Thanks for that information, I was not aware that we cannot book a hunt with a local guide. I assumed that their allocated tags were available to whomever wanted to book a hunt.
So, the situation is even worse than I thought.

[35 whelen]

Yes I just don't get it I'm a guide have been for 20 plus years friends with a few big Outfitters but they just don't see it when we gotta wait 10 to 20 30 years for an antelope hunt but yet anyone with money from a different country can come and buy one every year I don't get it I definitely think things should change for the resident Hunters never always used to think like that but I'm more of a resident Hunter now than a guide

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[nube]

It is the way it is guys and I don't see it changing. I wish it would but it won't. I spent $4500 on a Speedgoat hunt for myself and went to NM last year just so I could get a good goat.
As for all round hunting Tork is right in we have a good amount to hunt here in Alberta. We are lucky with what we have even though it should be way better.
I'd love it to manage thing so we could get tags more often and have better quality but it just ain't going to happen. Between Native Harvests, Canadian non residents thinking they are residents and hunt in multiple provinces every year and outfitter tags the resident will always get the left overs. The glory days are over boys so get a second job and save your pennies for your hunting trips where you can get them when you want because hunting here at home isn't going to get better....

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

Yes I just don't get it I'm a guide have been for 20 plus years friends with a few big Outfitters but they just don't see it when we gotta wait 10 to 20 30 years for an antelope hunt but yet anyone with money from a different country can come and buy one every year I don't get it I definitely think things should change for the resident Hunters never always used to think like that but I'm more of a resident Hunter now than a guide

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Thank you for the honest post ^^^

[sns2]

I begrudge no one the opportunity to make a living, guides included, so this is not a slam at anyone. But there is no way on earth we should have to apply in a draw for a tag that a yankee can come and buy for cash. The wildlife of this, or any other province is owned by it's citizens, not it's wealthy neighbors to the south.

[laker]

My understanding was that the number of allocations issued to outfitters per specie per wmu was established on a percentage of what the total of amount of animals per specie was harvested by residents in that perspective wmu.
The percentage used to determine how many allocations were available for that specie was 3%. Whether that is still the case or not I am unsure.
The DNR does not care if the same non resident comes and kills an antelope each year with an outfitter. That outfitter has x amount of allocations and he chooses who to fill them with. And personally I do not care either.
I would imagine Wyoming is the same with their antelope, the residents wait to get the drawn, but you could go down there each year if you choose and hunt with an outfitter.

And yes allocations have been dropping in price over the last few years.

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by laker

My understanding was that the number of allocations issued to outfitters per specie per wmu was established on a percentage of what the total of amount of animals per specie was harvested by residents in that perspective wmu.
The percentage used to determine how many allocations were available for that specie was 3%. Whether that is still the case or not I am unsure.
The DNR does not care if the same non resident comes and kills an antelope each year with an outfitter. That outfitter has x amount of allocations and he chooses who to fill them with. And personally I do not care either.
I would imagine Wyoming is the same with their antelope, the residents wait to get the drawn, but you could go down there each year if you choose and hunt with an outfitter.

And yes allocations have been dropping in price over the last few years.

I wouldn't care either if Alberta residents were allowed to use those allocations off an Outfitter but we are not

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[sns2]

I think the point that gets lost in the heated rhetoric is that if every Albertan could afford to go down to Wyoming to hunt an antelope then that would be fine. Kind of like a little Utopia it would be. The reality is most can't. However, most likely can drive down to southern Alberta. They would need the same hotels, and would be spending money in the same establishments as a foreigner, but we can't do that, but once or twice in a lifetime. Yet, a wealthy foreigner, should he choose, can come and hunt that very species, every year should he choose. That part of the allocation system is broke.

Guys like Nube and Claudio Ongaro should absolutely be able to make a lawful living outfitting waterfowl, as there is no draw system limiting opportunities for resident hunters. If they are successful at it, all the power to them.

It's when I can't hunt that species on a general license that it is wrong. Why it continues I have no idea.

[IronNoggin]

Originally Posted by waterninja

... I would get my Brother who is a BC resident to add to this discussion, but he is out hunting Fallow and Blacktail deer along with Wolf and Cougar as I type this. Oh, did I forget to mention that you can hunt Deer in parts of BC year round?

If what you say is true, your "brother" is out Poaching. Plain and simple, the date you posted this, there are ZERO opportunities for Blacktail open anywhere in BC. Unless of course he is a member of the Privileged Canadian Society aka FN...

Wolf, yes, they're pretty well wide open anywhere any time these days. A bit of a last ditch effort to reduce their numbers before the eat every last caribou / moose / deer etc etc.

Cougars. Yup - as long as the region's quota has not been realized. That occurs in many areas rather quickly after the season opens in the late fall. Some of the Ladz here do know what they're doing.

Fallow deer? What a JOKE! Certainly open, as they never close. The only thing that is closed in their respect is EVERY SINGLE INCH OF GROUND THEY OCCUPY. Either Private, National Park, or Special Reg Closures. In reality, the only ones that can possibly get in on the open season are FN's.

You want to get into other species?
Moose perhaps? What moose? Their population has been spiraling downwards so fast that almost everywhere is now on the damn-near-impossible to get limited entry LOTTERY.

Whitetails? Another pretty good Joke as our "managers" have long since declared WAR on that species, allowing double doe tags (cross counter) in addition to buck tags for a considerable period now. Collecting anything that remotely resembles a Good buck is a hell of a LOT more challenging than the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Mulies? Sure there are some areas with good numbers, and even some fine Quality bucks. NOWHERE near what much of Alberta offers!

I've hunted both Provinces (as well as many other jurisdictions) for decades.
To suggest BC affords more opportunity is ludicrous, for it certainly does not. We happen to have among the most backwards "management" regime in North America, and our declining wildlife populations well show that. Coupled with the entirely inane Laughing-Stock LEH Lottery, and well... by now methinks you should get the point...

Both Provinces have issues to sort out regarding outfitting. Just be Damn Thankful your "management team" isn't handing up to FORTY PERCENT of the annual allowable harvest to your outfitters there as they do here.

I love the fact I can (and do) hunt both Provinces. Both afford differing opportunities. Each has something great to offer, but NEITHER is any better whatsoever for their Resident hunters IMHO.

Have a Great Day...
Nog

[Deer Hunter]

^^^
Also, while the govt is dealing with excessive outfitter allocations, they need to reduce/remove the "non resident Canadians" sitting in the draw system in our over gracious and abused hunter host program.

Hunt swaps need to be eliminated too.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

If what you say is true, your "brother" is out Poaching. Plain and simple, the date you posted this, there are ZERO opportunities for Blacktail open anywhere in BC. Unless of course he is a member of the Privileged Canadian Society aka FN...

Wolf, yes, they're pretty well wide open anywhere any time these days. A bit of a last ditch effort to reduce their numbers before the eat every last caribou / moose / deer etc etc.

Cougars. Yup - as long as the region's quota has not been realized. That occurs in many areas rather quickly after the season opens in the late fall. Some of the Ladz here do know what they're doing.

Fallow deer? What a JOKE! Certainly open, as they never close. The only thing that is closed in their respect is EVERY SINGLE INCH OF GROUND THEY OCCUPY. Either Private, National Park, or Special Reg Closures. In reality, the only ones that can possibly get in on the open season are FN's.

You want to get into other species?
Moose perhaps? What moose? Their population has been spiraling downwards so fast that almost everywhere is now on the damn-near-impossible to get limited entry LOTTERY.

Whitetails? Another pretty good Joke as our "managers" have long since declared WAR on that species, allowing double doe tags (cross counter) in addition to buck tags for a considerable period now. Collecting anything that remotely resembles a Good buck is a hell of a LOT more challenging than the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Mulies? Sure there are some areas with good numbers, and even some fine Quality bucks. NOWHERE near what much of Alberta offers!

I've hunted both Provinces (as well as many other jurisdictions) for decades.
To suggest BC affords more opportunity is ludicrous, for it certainly does not. We happen to have among the most backwards "management" regime in North America, and our declining wildlife populations well show that. Coupled with the entirely inane Laughing-Stock LEH Lottery, and well... by now methinks you should get the point...

Both Provinces have issues to sort out regarding outfitting. Just be Damn Thankful your "management team" isn't handing up to FORTY PERCENT of the annual allowable harvest to your outfitters there as they do here.

I love the fact I can (and do) hunt both Provinces. Both afford differing opportunities. Each has something great to offer, but NEITHER is any better whatsoever for their Resident hunters IMHO.

Have a Great Day...
Nog

Iron, you sound very bitter. I'll check with my brother tonight about the Blacktail, as I might have misunderstood. I don't hunt the Van. island or the other islands he's hunting. He is certainly not poaching. As for the rest of your rant, well what can I say? I guess if I lived in BC then perhaps I'd see your point, but from personal experiance BC has better hunting then AB for pretty well everything except Whitetail. I know I'm looking foreward to hunting Turkey this spring in BC, which is something I could never do here in AB. Also, for the last few years I have seen much more game in BC, and had more space to hunt them, then I could in AB, except for Whitetail, maybe.
Seems like a lot of people hate where they live, as far as hunting goes.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

Yes I just don't get it I'm a guide have been for 20 plus years friends with a few big Outfitters but they just don't see it when we gotta wait 10 to 20 30 years for an antelope hunt but yet anyone with money from a different country can come and buy one every year I don't get it I definitely think things should change for the resident Hunters never always used to think like that but I'm more of a resident Hunter now than a guide

I agree the system on the surface seems set up to benefit the outfitters. On the other hand you say anybody with money from another country can hunt antelope every year. I guess technically they could but they would have to find an outfitter that hasn't sold his hunts or has had a cancellation. Yes there are a few who do as you describe and hunt antelope or mule deer or whatever every year because they have been using the same outfitter for years or have a booking agent who gets them to the front of the line and have a place save for them, or they outbid the other hunters who want to come here, but because they do that, some other person from a different country doesn't get to hunt here. It's first come first served for non residents. There are tons of non residents who would be hunting here if they could find outfitters who had tags, but outfitters only have what they have and when they're sold out that's a wrap. There are several on here who are trying to make it sound like outfitters can print tags and sell as many hunts to non residents as they want, which is not true.

[IronNoggin]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Iron, you sound very bitter. ... I guess if I lived in BC then perhaps I'd see your point, but from personal experience BC has better hunting then AB for pretty well everything except Whitetail.

Being on the front lines tends to bring out the bitterness from time to time.
We are working towards bringing our government into reality, but it is a damn tough row to hoe. Our current version has literally sold us out (resident hunters) on numerous occasions, while strip-mining the funds that should be dedicated for wildlife resources into their own pockets. Couple that with reducing our wildlife ministries by 56% while everything else sees increases, and it ain't hard to see how many get "bitter" as you put it.

There is a move afoot for change. Always room for hope. And I am once again in the process of banging my head repeatedly against that wall.

Did not mean to come across so gruff. But what I noted above is quite true, and that at times brings that out in me. Apologies if I offended.

I've found the direct opposite of you for many species. Elk, Mulies, Whitetails, Pheasants and more have all treated me better on your side of the line than here.

Good Luck with the Turkeys. We see lots in the areas you will be hunting during our late archery deer hunts. Never hunted them here. Perhaps one day...

Cheers,
Nog

[nube]

Originally Posted by sns2

I think the point that gets lost in the heated rhetoric is that if every Albertan could afford to go down to Wyoming to hunt an antelope then that would be fine. Kind of like a little Utopia it would be. The reality is most can't. However, most likely can drive down to southern Alberta. They would need the same hotels, and would be spending money in the same establishments as a foreigner, but we can't do that, but once or twice in a lifetime. Yet, a wealthy foreigner, should he choose, can come and hunt that very species, every year should he choose. That part of the allocation system is broke.

Guys like Nube and Claudio Ongaro should absolutely be able to make a lawful living outfitting waterfowl, as there is no draw system limiting opportunities for resident hunters. If they are successful at it, all the power to them.

It's when I can't hunt that species on a general license that it is wrong. Why it continues I have no idea.

You ask why it continues? That is easy. It's money. The Gov't treats it at a business and because of that it is why I say get used to it as nothing will change. The Gov't makes more money off outfitting than they do off resident hunters. It may not be right but that is how it is. I don't like sitting waiting for a turn for a special tag either but really how is it going to get changed? We are pe ons as resident hunters and the voice we have.

[35 whelen]

You are exactly right but I still can't wrap my head around a foreigner can pay for a hunt here that I don't have the opportunity to have

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[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I agree the system on the surface seems set up to benefit the outfitters. On the other hand you say anybody with money from another country can hunt antelope every year. I guess technically they could but they would have to find an outfitter that hasn't sold his hunts or has had a cancellation. Yes there are a few who do as you describe and hunt antelope or mule deer or whatever every year because they have been using the same outfitter for years or have a booking agent who gets them to the front of the line and have a place save for them, or they outbid the other hunters who want to come here, but because they do that, some other person from a different country doesn't get to hunt here. It's first come first served for non residents. There are tons of non residents who would be hunting here if they could find outfitters who had tags, but outfitters only have what they have and when they're sold out that's a wrap. There are several on here who are trying to make it sound like outfitters can print tags and sell as many hunts to non residents as they want, which is not true.

You're exactly right but I still can't wrap my head around foreigners can come every year and we can't

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[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

You're exactly right but I still can't wrap my head around foreigners can come every year and we can't

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It's simple it's all about money.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by nube

You ask why it continues? That is easy. It's money. The Gov't treats it at a business and because of that it is why I say get used to it as nothing will change. The Gov't makes more money off outfitting than they do off resident hunters. It may not be right but that is how it is. I don't like sitting waiting for a turn for a special tag either but really how is it going to get changed? We are pe ons as resident hunters and the voice we have.

Sadly, you are 100% correct.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

You're exactly right but I still can't wrap my head around foreigners can come every year and we can't

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So if you could, say use the outfitters allocation for Antelope, would you ? Or do you just want the choice to use it ?

Silver sage sells there hunts for $4500 US. That would cost you about $6,000 Canadian.

Because if you want, for about half that you could drive 4 hours further south and hunt then every year 👍

[Torkdiesel]

Here's a question for everybody

If non residents had to put in for a draw just like we do, would you be ok with them hunting here ?

Or are you totally against sharing and eliminating the outfitting industry ?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Here's a question for everybody

If non residents had to put in for a draw just like we do, would you be ok with them hunting here ?

Or are you totally against sharing and eliminating the outfitting industry ?

It would be nice if they had less allocations than residents in some zones as a start.

[Wolftrapper]

So some of you guys are ok with hunting in other countries, but you dont want others coming here to hunt. Hypocrites or what?
Ya I know you will say you are leaving money in poor countries, helping them out and all...
Whatever makes you feel justified and bash Outfitting.