Councillors for the County of Spirit River Lobbying for Elk Cull

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

It was your inferrance that the elk problem was due to landowner denial of access that I found stupid.
Just what percentage of land owners does that take?
You went from bashing land owners to back peddling and now sympathizing with them so no need to answer, I can see where you are going with this.

If you take tgat as an inference that I think all landowners are like that you are so easy triggered it is laughable .
And no, I did not and am not back peddling.
I wasn't bashing anybody , you forgot to mention athe part about hunters getting stuff vandalized and stolen as well. You seem to be looking for a fight , so go argue with someone else .
Cat

[OL_JR]

If farmers are having a big problem with elk I don't blame them for asking for a cull as it is efficient and gets the job done.

I also believe that in the long term if Hunters want to be part of wildlife management where private land is concerned there will have to be changes as it's getting tougher and tougher to get permission. More and more landowners seem to be done with taking their chances on random folks. Don't necessarily blame them.

What exactly that change looks like I'm not sure but I wonder if some sort of program where landowners can access a vetted pool would make them feel more at ease.

I do like the idea of letting hunters get a bull and cow tag. At least let folks pick up an undersubscribed tag without affecting their ability to purchase a bull tag.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

If you take tgat as an inference that I think all landowners are like that you are so easy triggered it is laughable .
And no, I did not and am not back peddling.
I wasn't bashing anybody , you forgot to mention athe part about hunters getting stuff vandalized and stolen as well. You seem to be looking for a fight , so go argue with someone else .
Cat

Hunters getting stuff vandalized by who? Land owners?.
You were the one that replied to 3 people that didn't agree with you and now are typing so fast you are making mistakes.
I think we know who is easily triggered.
Have a snickers.LOL

[skidderman]

Make it like Saskatchewan. One tag, cow, calf or bull including spikers. A heck of a lot more elk would be taken then.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

If farmers are having a big problem with elk I don't blame them for asking for a cull as it is efficient and gets the job done.

I also believe that in the long term if Hunters want to be part of wildlife management where private land is concerned there will have to be changes as it's getting tougher and tougher to get permission. More and more landowners seem to be done with taking their chances on random folks. Don't necessarily blame them.

What exactly that change looks like I'm not sure but I wonder if some sort of program where landowners can access a vetted pool would make them feel more at ease.

I do like the idea of letting hunters get a bull and cow tag. At least let folks pick up an undersubscribed tag without affecting their ability to purchase a bull tag.

I agree with the vetted pool of hunters. Kind of a “master hunter” program.
Trained in ethics and landowner relations, tested in shooting ability etc.
They train to be in the pool and if they are convicted of violations they get thrown out. I’m not talking about an elite group that is unattainable by most. Justt well trained and willing to be accountable.

[Smoky buck]

Not going to touch the train wreck conversation about landowners but I have one simple thing to say about this

This possible cull should be based on the number of elk not landowner complaints. I would rather see healthy elk numbers then a cull based on complaints

[IL Bar]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

If farmers are having a big problem with elk I don't blame them for asking for a cull as it is efficient and gets the job done.

I also believe that in the long term if Hunters want to be part of wildlife management where private land is concerned there will have to be changes as it's getting tougher and tougher to get permission. More and more landowners seem to be done with taking their chances on random folks. Don't necessarily blame them.

What exactly that change looks like I'm not sure but I wonder if some sort of program where landowners can access a vetted pool would make them feel more at ease.

I do like the idea of letting hunters get a bull and cow tag. At least let folks pick up an undersubscribed tag without affecting their ability to purchase a bull tag.

I agree with this. You said exactly what I’m thinking. Just giving out more tags to anyone won’t fix the problem. There are too many guys out there hunting that think they will purchase an elk tag and just drive into an open field and blast one out their truck window. Anyone that has hunted elk knows it’s not that easy. Once spooked it can be a battle to find them.

As Dean2 has shown us with his research that the number of tags given in that area is phenomenal. I’m sure there are frustrated landowners probably ready to smash their phone or lock their doors due to the number of requests that they would get at all hours of the day. Who do you trust and who is going to drag you into some drama event? It happens.

I am quite bothered with the amount of guys on here that think those of us that have received wildlife damage compensation that seem to think it’s a big source of income for us. Trust me it’s not. And it’s not as easy to get as you may think. There are other costs associated with the crop damage that takes a couple years of work to fix. The guys that lose feed then have to try to source new stuff which in some years can be a challenge.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

I agree with the vetted pool of hunters. Kind of a “master hunter” program.
Trained in ethics and landowner relations, tested in shooting ability etc.
They train to be in the pool and if they are convicted of violations they get thrown out. I’m not talking about an elite group that is unattainable by most. Justt well trained and willing to be accountable.

That would be good if we had a way to inforce it.
Alberta is very short on F&W officers and land owners can't be expected to patrol.
What you mentioned does happen in an formal way though.
Most landowners do have a few returning hunters that they know and another list of those that they know better than to give permission to.

[bucksman]

Originally Posted by mac1983

There are a couple of rather large Hutterite colonies in that area that usually don't mind hunters, they're good people. Peter will try to sell you some tires or something, lol. Not all of us Landowners just want to sell elk tags... bahaha

Peter is a good man!

[bucksman]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I don’t hunt that specific area, but not that far out.

Allow buying a general antlered tag to people who are drawn for an antlerless tag. I know many people, myself including, who would happily shoot a bull and a cow every single year. I don’t want two cows, because I want to hunt a bull, but I would gladly take a cow in addition to the bull.

I ran into both type of landowners, some allowing access (selectively, obviously) and others complaining about wildlife and hunters asking permission.

I would flip this idea abit because I would also like to shoot a bull instead of a cow. So allow people to put in for an anterless elk tag but still be able to buy a general tag whether they are successful or not. I don't put in for antlerless tags because I would rather hunt bulls but if I had an antlerless tag in my pocket in late august/September as well as the general tag then that would change everything. Would probably improve the quality of bulls too, i would assume there is less competition for bulls when there is that many cows and I know that a 3 pointer would be getting a pass by a lot of people if they already had a cow in the freezer.

Or second idea, this one might not be liked by some but if you handed out an antlerless tag with your general tag but made it so you had to fill the antlerless tag first before you could fill the general tag and maybe make the donation program more readily available. Govt could pay for the butchering costs to have these antlerless elk donated if you chose not to keep it yourself. Or govt could pay for butchering whether you kept it or not, if they are going to pay for crop damage and a huge culling program then maybe pay us to take care of the problem instead

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by bucksman

I would flip this idea abit because I would also like to shoot a bull instead of a cow. So allow people to put in for an anterless elk tag but still be able to buy a general tag whether they are successful or not. I don't put in for antlerless tags because I would rather hunt bulls but if I had an antlerless tag in my pocket in late august/September as well as the general tag then that would change everything. Would probably improve the quality of bulls too, i would assume there is less competition for bulls when there is that many cows and I know that a 3 pointer would be getting a pass by a lot of people if they already had a cow in the freezer.

Or second idea, this one might not be liked by some but if you handed out an antlerless tag with your general tag but made it so you had to fill the antlerless tag first before you could fill the general tag and maybe make the donation program more readily available. Govt could pay for the butchering costs to have these antlerless elk donated if you chose not to keep it yourself. Or govt could pay for butchering whether you kept it or not, if they are going to pay for crop damage and a huge culling program then maybe pay us to take care of the problem instead

Two or three cow tags per draw would thin them down. “We” won’t have to worry about getting in on that deal, they’ll invite the natives in and slaughter them.

[Simplefarmer]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Landowner tags are sold in many states for exactly this same purpose
If a couple hundred bucks is too much for you, then put in for the draw for the wmu
If you want to fill your freezer and don’t want to **** around chasing cow elk all over the county. Then why not?

You would find a lot of farmers more would be open to hunters

Your response shows the main fault of "paid" hunting, something I hope we never witness here in Alberta. I don't know your financial situation, but I do know there are many more residents who have deeper pockets than you and I combined.

In regards to private lands and access, this is the owners choice period.

Jim

[esher]

I am a farmer in 133 , i allow hunting and the elk here are vermin that dont belong here like norway rats. The original 26 were dropped off in the 60s and f and w said you wont even know they are here. Well i have seen a couple hundred in the last ten days. People commenting on big crop damage checks dont have a clue what they are talking about, the rules have changed to the point its almost impossible to collect anything. The damage they can do is amazing in a short time. I would support a open season, shoot as much as you use. People shooting elk in August taking only a couple quarters leaving the rest for the farmer to hit with a 750000 combine might explain some of us not wanting people on our land.

[bucksman]

Originally Posted by esher

I am a farmer in 133 , i allow hunting and the elk here are vermin that dont belong here like norway rats. The original 26 were dropped off in the 60s and f and w said you wont even know they are here. Well i have seen a couple hundred in the last ten days. People commenting on big crop damage checks dont have a clue what they are talking about, the rules have changed to the point its almost impossible to collect anything. The damage they can do is amazing in a short time. I would support a open season, shoot as much as you use. People shooting elk in August taking only a couple quarters leaving the rest for the farmer to hit with a 750000 combine might explain some of us not wanting people on our land.

we all know who the people that hunt in august are

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by bucksman

Peter is a good man!

Absolutely

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by esher

I am a farmer in 133 , i allow hunting and the elk here are vermin that dont belong here like norway rats. The original 26 were dropped off in the 60s and f and w said you wont even know they are here. Well i have seen a couple hundred in the last ten days. People commenting on big crop damage checks dont have a clue what they are talking about, the rules have changed to the point its almost impossible to collect anything. The damage they can do is amazing in a short time. I would support a open season, shoot as much as you use. People shooting elk in August taking only a couple quarters leaving the rest for the farmer to hit with a 750000 combine might explain some of us not wanting people on our land.

Buddy got some elk fencing material from Sustainable Resources, followed by an official slip at the end of the year. Apparently, that's a taxable benefit.

Grizz

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Simplefarmer

Your response shows the main fault of "paid" hunting, something I hope we never witness here in Alberta. I don't know your financial situation, but I do know there are many more residents who have deeper pockets than you and I combined.

In regards to private lands and access, this is the owners choice period.

Jim

I don’t get what the fault is?
I would definitely pay for opportunity to shot cow elk from a landowner in dec after the season closes everywhere else
I dont put in for cow draws. I’d like to help out with solving the problem but I can’t if I buy a general tag.

Best idea is to allow people to get a cow tag along with a general tag so they can still chase a bull and shoot a cow along the way

You still need to find a way to incentivize the landowners that don’t allow hunters and give the elk a sanctuary

[WV911]

I wonder how many of the guys on here complaining about lack of access by landowners would change their tune if the shoe was on the other foot.
If they were the landowner being hounded day and night for permission and then putting up with the same bulls**t from ignorant hunters that gets worse all the time, and like the mess left by "target shooters", roadside campers, atv trail destroyers and general a**holes, I think they would have a different outlook.
Of course no one on this forum does any of these things, everyone here is a outdoors saint.

[Hunter Trav]

Having grown up in the area and spent the last 5-6 years hunting the late season cow draw I can give a good account of whats going on up there. First off permission can be obtained but its getting harder and harder cause too many guys are just driving around where ever they want to with or with out permission. Many farmers are tired of it and thats not to mention a lot of the other stupid things these guys are doing (leaving wounded game, littering, cutting fences, etc.). Second, the elk are heavily pressured and they become very nocturnal. If you're willing to get out of the truck and work for it its not terribly difficult to find them during hunting hours, but you're gonna work to get it out of where ever you find them. This leads to more guys just driving around all over hoping to catch them out where you can just step out of the truck and shoot one, which leads to more PO'd landowners, which leads to less access, which comes back full circle to guys just going where ever they feel like. A very vicious cycle with no easy solution. More tags won't really help IMO, well for some guys it will be ok but overall not really. Just too many lazy people is what the real problem is...

[esher]

Originally Posted by Hunter Trav

Having grown up in the area and spent the last 5-6 years hunting the late season cow draw I can give a good account of whats going on up there. First off permission can be obtained but its getting harder and harder cause too many guys are just driving around where ever they want to with or with out permission. Many farmers are tired of it and thats not to mention a lot of the other stupid things these guys are doing (leaving wounded game, littering, cutting fences, etc.). Second, the elk are heavily pressured and they become very nocturnal. If you're willing to get out of the truck and work for it its not terribly difficult to find them during hunting hours, but you're gonna work to get it out of where ever you find them. This leads to more guys just driving around all over hoping to catch them out where you can just step out of the truck and shoot one, which leads to more PO'd landowners, which leads to less access, which comes back full circle to guys just going where ever they feel like. A very vicious cycle with no easy solution. More tags won't really help IMO, well for some guys it will be ok but overall not really. Just too many lazy people is what the real problem is...

Well put, last year a friend allowed hunters on land with standing crop, they drove everywhere in the crop causing huge damage, so dont question no hunting signs.

[sendmethem]

Originally Posted by Pilsner Man

It’s funny how people think you just show up in the saddle hills and kill elk.

Check out the harvest numbers. Slightly higher than the province average. But 2/3 hunters go home empty handed.

Then consider out of town people who have no idea where to look for them. Now you just have more people pushing the animals harder and making it tougher for the guys who actually know what they are doing.

At the end of the day they are still elk that are hard to kill and most hunters are too lazy to effectively kill elk on a regular basis.

I’m 100% against a cull but brining in more hunters is not the solution either.

x2
Hunters are unlikely to be the solution here if a serious reduction in elk numbers becomes the management objective. As noted they are tough to kill and with such a long season they are very well educated. We hunted hard for 5 days late December up there deep in the timber and by the time we dragged the elk in pieces back to the truck the last thing I was thinking was let's do that again tomorrow. Extra tags in everyone's pockets will unlikely double the yield.

[mac1983]

When the CO came out to my land to review the elk damaged hay stack, he had lots of ideas but none that really worked, and the compensation wasn't really worth it. The one that really stuck with me was to get the FN out, I just laughed and said have a nice day as I have enough trouble with people not respecting private land. So I just accept the loss of a few acres of crop as the price of a peaceful mind. Now I just set up cell cams and hunt the poachers, quite fun actually. I feel for the landowners up in Spirit River and Wanham areas where there large herds that do cause a lot of damage, we are just doing our part to feed the world...

[skidderman]

In the area I have exclusive permission on one property when I am there. One would never believe the number of people who slowly drive by or stop & hunt that property. It's really, really sad how some people disrespect private property. One year someone shot a bull on said property & left it there. The farmer dragged it into the bush & the bears dragged it back out. Again it's really sad. I hope AO members are not like that.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by skidderman

In the area I have exclusive permission on one property when I am there. One would never believe the number of people who slowly drive by or stop & hunt that property. It's really, really sad how some people disrespect private property. One year someone shot a bull on said property & left it there. The farmer dragged it into the bush & the bears dragged it back out. Again it's really sad. I hope AO members are not like that.

Technology like cell cams may be the only way to curb the slobs that shoot across land they have no permission on.

[Grizzly Adams]

Second, the elk are heavily pressured and they become very nocturnal.

I have a neighbor who hunts up there and talks about his extreme long distance shots. Think he's got his rifle zeroed at 300 yds.

Grizz

[calgarychef]

The elk don’t disappear when daylight comes. They hit the thick stuff, it’s not that difficult to find them if you’re willing to walk. Of course one still needs access on land that contains elk.

[cody j]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

The elk don’t disappear when daylight comes. They hit the thick stuff, it’s not that difficult to find them if you’re willing to walk. Of course one still needs access on land that contains elk.

Most people aren’t willing to walk, they want to step out the truck and shoot one in a field.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by cody j

Most people aren’t willing to walk, they want to step out the truck and shoot one in a field.

That’s true, I walk miles and sometimes I even get an animal doing that



I wonder if a late season draw that comes with 2 or 3 tags and costs a “bit” more would work? The extra money from the tag sales could go into a fund to help the landowners. It would be nice if that fund was only available to landowners who allow hunting, but there isn’t much manpower hired by the province to be able to administer that.

The late season draw in 212 started out very well organized by F&W, it came with a map of willing landowners who would allow hunting. I’ve shot a few elk there, and done my part to eat my way through the problem.

It always boils down to access though. It’s frustrating to have secured good permissions then watch the elk in a spot were you don’t have access. Landowner cooperation and ethical hunters are a necessary combination.

[cody j]

Landowner permission can be tough, usually when people have had enough problems they get mad and shut down hunting to everyone or limit it only to people they know. Every stranger that knocks on the door will tell you they are a good guy even if they aren’t. People just have enough after a point. I have 2 quarters across the road from my house, every year I have some sort of stuff go on, deer poached, moose poached, fence taken down, people driving in fields, found a tree stand with trail cam and bait one fall. This is right by my house, what would it be like if the land was miles away? Probably a total free for all?

[Simplefarmer]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I don’t get what the fault is?
I would definitely pay for opportunity to shot cow elk from a landowner in dec after the season closes everywhere else
I dont put in for cow draws. I’d like to help out with solving the problem but I can’t if I buy a general tag.

Best idea is to allow people to get a cow tag along with a general tag so they can still chase a bull and shoot a cow along the way

You still need to find a way to incentivize the landowners that don’t allow hunters and give the elk a sanctuary

There are hunt farms for guys like yourself willing to pay for "land owner" elk. Cull cows are cheap, might be right in your wheel house.

You will never convince enough private land owner to open their lands to eliminate the sanctuaries many provide for all species.

Jim