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  #121  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:42 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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Is that your left brain fighting with your right brain?
  #122  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:42 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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In this case, she did. It should have been voted on.

I think you don't give the public enough credibility to do the right thing. You clearly think that the government should dictate to the public right from wrong, and you don't seem to have any ability to see things from a different point of view. This is why it is so difficult to have a reasonable discussion with people like you.

I don't think had this law passed that there would have been a big influx of segregation issues. Most people have grown accustomed to be tolerant. What I saw this law doing, and based on discussions with my parents who are currently in Arizona, this law was more about giving people who have religious views back some rights to not be forced to do something that violates their moral convictions.
Some things happen over time and some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming along, do you believe people in the south in 1860 would have voted for blacks to be equal citizens ? How about men giving women equal rights in this country in 1910 ? The tyranny is the majority is wrong.

If the people in Arizona are upset by what the governor has done they can vote her out next time.
  #123  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:43 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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Is that your left brain fighting with your right brain?
Sorry if I think things out and don't automatically go along with my established political views.
  #124  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:43 PM
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In my opinion, it is because the gay couple had an agenda to push.
Probably right!
  #125  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:47 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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I think a Muslim baker should be permitted to refuse to bake a cake for a christening as much as a christian baker has a right to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

And I don't see why the government should get involved and force either baker to bake a cake for a person or group that violates their moral convictions.
This is the same government who forces people to serve in the military at times, makes people pay taxes under punishment of jail time. Do you really think they are going to exclude bakers ?.
  #126  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:48 PM
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Probably right!
Why it started is really irrelevant, that's a red herring.
  #127  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:52 PM
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I suppose it depends on which side of the fence you sit.
Although I do not agree, I have respect for those on both sides of the fence. Those who sit on the fence, not so much.
  #128  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:53 PM
Big Daddy Badger Big Daddy Badger is offline
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I think a Muslim baker should be permitted to refuse to bake a cake for a christening as much as a christian baker has a right to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding.

And I don't see why the government should get involved and force either baker to bake a cake for a person or group that violates their moral convictions.
I believe you.
I also believe that if the situation was reversed.... you would find yourself on the wrong side of the vast majority of those who are on your side in this right now.
  #129  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:54 PM
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Can you show that it is under religious grounds? Nope, so then he violates the law.

But homosexuality is prohibited by many religions, and as such he would have grounds.
So should a fanatical devote Muslim be allowed to not provide essential services to a Christian because in his religion he can't help infidels?
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  #130  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:54 PM
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Although I do not agree, I have respect for those on both sides of the fence. Those who sit on the fence, not so much.
Incase anybody is wondering I will 99% of the time support a bill that brings people together and 99% of the time not support a bill that divides people.
  #131  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:58 PM
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So should a fanatical devote Muslim be allowed to not provide essential services to a Christian because in his religion he can't help infidels?
Baking cake.... not essential

Medical attention...essentail
  #132  
Old 02-27-2014, 05:58 PM
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So should a fanatical devote Muslim be allowed to not provide essential services to a Christian because in his religion he can't help infidels?
The law wasn't about wholly excluding anything. Someone stated earlier about a Muslim butcher who refused to butcher a pig. I believe that to be a good example to use. I believe a muslin butcher should be able to refuse anything he wants but he shouldn't have different rules for different groups. If he refuses for Christians and agrees for hindu's that's where I would disagree. Picking and choosing based on religious beliefs will divide people.
  #133  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:07 PM
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Some things happen over time and some people have to be dragged kicking and screaming along, do you believe people in the south in 1860 would have voted for blacks to be equal citizens ? How about men giving women equal rights in this country in 1910 ? The tyranny is the majority is wrong.

If the people in Arizona are upset by what the governor has done they can vote her out next time.
You don't know much about history do you?

Men didn't even have the vote in 1910 unless they were property owners.

Furthermore, if you were Native or of Asianic background, you could not vote either regardless of property ownership.

In WW1, only serving men who previously could not vote were given the vote, as well as women who had direct serving relatives could vote.
  #134  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:09 PM
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The law wasn't about wholly excluding anything. Someone stated earlier about a Muslim butcher who refused to butcher a pig. I believe that to be a good example to use. I believe a muslin butcher should be able to refuse anything he wants but he shouldn't have different rules for different groups. If he refuses for Christians and agrees for hindu's that's where I would disagree. Picking and choosing based on religious beliefs will divide people.
Not a good example! A devout Muslim would have only one rule with respect to pigs. No different rule for different groups.
  #135  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:09 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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This is the same government who forces people to serve in the military at times, makes people pay taxes under punishment of jail time. Do you really think they are going to exclude bakers ?.
This is not even worthy of a proper reply.
  #136  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:10 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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You don't know much about history do you?

Men didn't even have the vote in 1910 unless they were property owners.

Furthermore, if you were Native or of Asianic background, you could not vote either regardless of property ownership.

In WW1, only serving men who previously could not vote were given the vote, as well as women who had direct serving relatives could vote.
All of those things changed because they were wrong. They didn't go to a vote either because they probably would have lost.
  #137  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:11 PM
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I believe you.
I also believe that if the situation was reversed.... you would find yourself on the wrong side of the vast majority of those who are on your side in this right now.
If the situation was reversed, I doubt I would have this opinion.

And for the record, I don't care if a person is gay or not. But I do understand some people's religious opinion, and that is what I think needs to be respected.

Big issue is how to protect both groups without harming the other.
  #138  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:13 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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All of those things changed because they were wrong. They didn't go to a vote either because they probably would have lost.
You really should do some research on the subject. You might learn something.
  #139  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:13 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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This is not even worthy of a proper reply.
You wonder why the government has the power to force a baker bake a cake when the government has the power to force people to go to war, or pay up to 40% of their wages to them or even kill people under the death penalty. I say a cake baking is pretty minor compared to a machine gun.
  #140  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:15 PM
whammy whammy is offline
 
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Why not? It could very well be.



You are talking about this, but it could also include many other scenarios.
You are fooling yourself if you think it is about any other scenario.
  #141  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:15 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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So should a fanatical devote Muslim be allowed to not provide essential services to a Christian because in his religion he can't help infidels?
Christians are not infidels according to Muslims, nor are Jews. However Buddhists are.

In fact the Qur'an speaks about the bible, Christianity, and the various main characters of both the new and old testament, and they are portrayed in a good light.
  #142  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:16 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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You really should do some research on the subject. You might learn something.
You might want to stop dismissing someone's opinion when it doesn't agree with yours.
  #143  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:18 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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You are fooling yourself if you think it is about any other scenario.
Perhaps you are the one who is misunderstanding the issue. The law will be interpreted differently by people depending on their needs at the time.

And I am not saying I agree with the law, I am saying I understand why some think there is a need.
  #144  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:20 PM
Boots270 Boots270 is offline
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All of those things changed because they were wrong. They didn't go to a vote either because they probably would have lost.
And before the laws changed the majorities were in the right.
You have a strange set of convictions.
The majority populous rules in your mindset. Conformity rules eh?
That sure doesn't say much for individualism which is what our free society is truly based on.
Your a glutton for punishment. ...weebles wobble but they don't fall down.

Last edited by Boots270; 02-27-2014 at 06:25 PM.
  #145  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:25 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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And before the laws changed the majorities were in the right.
You have a strange set of convictions.
The majority populous rules in your mindset. Conformity rules eh?
That sure doesn't say much for individualism which is what our free society is truly based on.
The majority of men wanted women to vote ? Southerners wanted blacks free ? That's shows in all the black codes and Jim Crow laws and segregation that happened after the war was over, not to mention the firehouses and the kkk and forced integration of the schools 100 years later.
  #146  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:25 PM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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You might want to stop dismissing someone's opinion when it doesn't agree with yours.
Perhaps you want to read up on history before you accuse me of dismissing your opinion on some things. I can back up what I say about history, and you claim it is a difference of opinion. Not so, it is a difference of fact.

History is not about opinion, it is about facts of history. Fact one is that even many men didn't have the right to vote at the turn of the last century, and in fact women got the vote before many other groups of men did.

For example, Chinese, Indians (not natives), Dukobors, and Mennonites were denied the vote unless they served in the military until 1947.
  #147  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:26 PM
Boots270 Boots270 is offline
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The majority of men wanted women to vote ? Southerners wanted blacks free ? That's shows in all the black codes and Jim Crow laws and segregation that happened after the war was over, not to mention the firehouses and the kkk and forced integration of the schools 100 years later.
So says the story books you read.
  #148  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:28 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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So says the story books you read.
History books you mean.

You claimed it so you back it up. I want to see a poll from 1859 that's says white people wanted blacks free and the government just did the will of the people.
  #149  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:30 PM
ali#1 ali#1 is offline
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Perhaps you want to read up on history before you accuse me of dismissing your opinion on some things. I can back up what I say about history, and you claim it is a difference of opinion. Not so, it is a difference of fact.

History is not about opinion, it is about facts of history. Fact one is that even many men didn't have the right to vote at the turn of the last century, and in fact women got the vote before many other groups of men did.

For example, Chinese, Indians (not natives), Dukobors, and Mennonites were denied the vote unless they served in the military until 1947.
Sure is never say they didn't. I said if given a vote in 1910 women would not have been given the vote. Fact is sometimes government has to force things to happen popular majority or not.
  #150  
Old 02-27-2014, 06:34 PM
whammy whammy is offline
 
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Perhaps you are the one who is misunderstanding the issue. The law will be interpreted differently by people depending on their needs at the time.

And I am not saying I agree with the law, I am saying I understand why some think there is a need.
I'm not misunderstanding it. It's very clear to almost everyone what the issue is.
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