Archery Mule Deer Draw for 2013 Season?

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

My understandiong is that only 5% of their membership are archery-only hunter. No doubt there are some guys like that everywhere. It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience. I think it's good that the archers have a dedicated voice in Alberta.

Your probably right but that 5% I've dealt with left a bad taste in my mouth when they say if you were any kind of now hunter you would never pick up a different weapon.

[gman1978]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You do realize that if they cut rifle tags back, the allowable archery harvest will be reduced accordingly.

If thats what is actually needed to get the population back in check then so be it. It's an absolute shame what went on in the past but that was the past time to right the ship somehow.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by eggo

Pottymouth and muledeerking you both agreed that the mule deer herds are mismanaged and numbers are way down but still feel you should be able to kill one every year with your bow?

mismanaged ...yes ( along with every animal in this province)

numbers...???? We don't have any stats to support any numbers! (for or against)

Originally Posted by pottymouth

numbers...???? We don't have any stats to support any numbers! (for or against)

Actually we have lots of stats....some seem to be questioning their accuracy but to say we have no stats isn't true.

[pottymouth]

Make no mistake, this proposed draw isn't about managing herds and increasing quality, which alot of you believe. This all about managing PEOPLE, with little to no affect on the mule deer herd.

Just another step to limiting hunting in this province. Unfortunatley it's trend that will continue. Today archery, tomorrow rifle . It's kinda sad that anytime something happens the finger gets pointed at bow hunters. But if the role was reversed, I know , I would be just as passionate on the behalf of rifle guys, and so would most bow hunters!

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Actually we have lots of stats....some seem to be questioning their accuracy but to say we have no stats isn't true.

Do you have blind faith in those stats SH?

Mule deer stats are based on a sample population, of a voluntary survey.

While sheep were had mandatory registration, and extensive studies and population counts. Which we all agreed and was not enough to allow the proposed changes. We all stood and still stand together on that proposal, to slow it down.

Why is mule deer different?

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by eggo

If you hunt the bow zone that's fine no problem but alot don't. 10 percent of the bow hunters take 90 percent of the animals taken with a bow,there is guys killing bucks every year.3 years since I was drawn passed up25 bucks in 170 to 180 range came home without one.

I hunt all over but most is in the bow zone. Out of my last 5 deer all are over 185 other than 1 that was a giant 3 point. All but one are out of the bowzone. I am still waiting for my mule draw. I am a p5 and still have to wait for a few more years. Well I know there are more land owner tags then resident tags in my zone. So what is fair to all? This is to do with lost opportunity period. As for SRD saying there is a problem. I disagree as there info is only a volontary survey. I have not hers from anybody in years. Also the ones on the Internet I never got.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Do you have blind faith in those stats SH?

Mule deer stats are based on a sample population, of a voluntary survey.

While sheep were had mandatory registration, and extensive studies and population counts. Which we all agreed and was not enough to allow the proposed changes. We all stood and still stand together on that proposal, to slow it down.

Why is mule deer different?

Potty, statistics is a very well understood and respected science...you can question the data input but to actually question the science of statistics is ridiculous. As for your sheep and grizzly comparisons, the data in no way compares to figuring out what percentage of the mule deer harvest that archers take. Any student with first year stats under his belt could poke enough holes in your ship to sink it. Give me something concrete that you can point to and say this data that was input was flawed....otherwise I seriously doubt anyone will listen.

A lot of you seem to be missing the point...SRD is only saying that archers are exceeeding their 15% in some WMUs. I have absolutely no doubt this is true and that they have the stats to back it up. Now, is this reduction in hunting opportunity an indicator of a muxch wider spread issue...I'd say quite likely. You need to quit arguing a losing arguement and pause for a moment and take a look at what got us. SRD needs prove nothing else than the archery harvest exceeeds their cap which I have zero doubt they can do. Why not make them prove something that they can't...like the grizzly and sheep issues. Accept theb 15% but ask the harder questions...what allowed us to get to this point. You catching my drift?

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Shows what?

that they are thinking of making it similar to the antelope draws. the link didn't transfer right, just look back on page 3 of this thread and look at his post.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Potty, statistics is a very well understood and respected science...you can question the data input but to actually question the science of statistics is ridiculous. As for your sheep and grizzly comparisons, the data in no way compares to figuring out what percentage of the mule deer harvest that archers take. Any student with first year stats under his belt could poke enough holes in your ship to sink it. Give me something concrete that you can point to and say this data that was input was flawed....otherwise I seriously doubt anyone will listen.

A lot of you seem to be missing the point...SRD is only saying that archers are exceeeding their 15% in some WMUs. I have absolutely no doubt this is true and that they have the stats to back it up. Now, is this reduction in hunting opportunity an indicator of a muxch wider spread issue...I'd say quite likely. You need to quit arguing a losing arguement and pause for a moment and take a look at what got us. SRD needs prove nothing else than the archery harvest exceeeds their cap which I have zero doubt they can do. Why not make them prove something that they can't...like the grizzly and sheep issues. Accept theb 15% but ask the harder questions...what allowed us to get to this point. You catching my drift?

yup, because all of the polls leading up to the last alberta election proved that statusticians(sp?) are on their game and accurate... lol

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

that they are thinking of making it similar to the antelope draws. the link didn't transfer right, just look back on page 3 of this thread and look at his post.

Justin said it was what they were going to do and unless something changed very recently, no decision had been made. Yes, it was one of the options but it ain't written in stone.

4. ALTERNATIVES

1. Maintain the current system with archery on a general license for antlered mule deer.
2. Once antlered mule deer harvest by bow hunters exceeds 15% or another predetermined threshold, archery hunting will require a special licence, which would be valid during the archery and rifle season.
3. Create a separate antlered mule deer archery special licence and run a separate draw, similar to the manner in which antelope is run.

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Than why would sheephunter refer to moose and elk when comparing mule deer instead of antalope. Please if some one could clarify this for me. I was under the impression that was just someone's personal theory.

According to the 3 different people I spoke to in SRD they want to do it like antelope if it goes on a draw. So bowhunters would have there own draw. Also if this was not the case than bowhunters would be at a zero % rate rite??? Sorry or real close to it.

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

yup, because all of the polls leading up to the last alberta election proved that statusticians(sp?) are on their game and accurate... lol

Again, your lack of understanding of statistics isn't making your arguement any stronger. You are referencing a poll...people's opinions that are subject to change. Who killed what and with what are pretty hard facts. See the difference? SRD is going to make a fool out of anyone arguing stats and bringing up political polls. The bigger question is what got us here and until people start asking that and quit arguing about a science they don't have a basic understanding of, well you get it.

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Make no mistake, this proposed draw isn't about managing herds and increasing quality, which alot of you believe. This all about managing PEOPLE, with little to no affect on the mule deer herd.

Just another step to limiting hunting in this province. Unfortunatley it's trend that will continue. Today archery, tomorrow rifle . It's kinda sad that anytime something happens the finger gets pointed at bow hunters. But if the role was reversed, I know , I would be just as passionate on the behalf of rifle guys, and so would most bow hunters!

Potty, to me your are completely twisting this around to suit your needs. Sorry bud, but that is how I feel. This is about conservation of the herds and it is damn well time the bow hunting crowd accepts that they are a part of it.

Wildlife management must look at everything: Rifle hunting, bow hunting, guide allocations, land owner tags, etc. The way you are talking is that the bow hunters should be left out of this even though the numbers suggest that the 15% harvest is being exceeded in many wmus. You may dispute the numbers but go argue that to the powers that be. Trying to twist this and say it is bad for all hunters is absurd. Doesn't bother me a bit. It just makes me think that SRD is doing a good job keeping the system more fair for hunters of all choice of seasons and weapons.

Here is some literature I got right off the ABA website that outlines the subject at hand just like Sheephunter nicely summarized for us a few post back.

http://www.bowhunters.ca/files/Downl...0on%20Draw.doc

And Justin, while I agree with you that many other factors such as landowner tags should be looked at too; this takes nothing away from the fact that the bow harvest must be considered in a wildlife management plan and may require a draw if the harvest is in fact beyond the threshold.

The bow zone only is another red herring argument you guys are using. Go hunt there with your bows by all means, but if the bow harvest is too great to sustain the herd then it must be managed with draws...period.

Sorry, I see a real lack of acceptance of wildlife management by some on here. They want to argue that it shouldn't be splitting hunters that choose different seasons and weapons but they want their cake and eat it too.

[eggo]

X2 sheep and axeman

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Again, your lack of understanding of statistics isn't making your arguement any stronger. You are referencing a poll...people's opinions that are subject to change. Who killed what and with what are pretty hard facts. See the difference? SRD is going to make a fool out of anyone arguing stats and bringing up political polls. The bigger question is what got us here and until people start asking that and quit arguing about a science they don't have a basic understanding of, well you get it.

I don't consider them much different. They are both voluntary, they are both done on phone basis for the most part. They both have a very limited sample size which skews data, and they both leave room for people to lie and make up false info. Hell, I have read on here a number of times where guys think it is an invasion of privacy and give false information. I would venture a guess that polls for politics are a hell of a lot more accurate then these BS surveys. I don't argue the science, I just point out the fact that it is far from an exact science which you seem to have the feeling it is close to perfect. Your standing in the hunting community and being so close to the powers that be make you a little less impartial, I have seen your show and read your articles, you seem pretty quick to blow smoke up the SRD's rear end whenever possible.

BTW if the system could be proven to provide accurate TRANSPARENT data I would have no problem with the draws, I feel we need to manage all aspects of population control. IMO we have been shown time and time again that these clowns do not manage wildlife worth a damn.

[BigJon]

I am curious Potty, if you are in this debate to fight the limiting/reduction of hunting opportunities than why are you opposed to Sunday hunting. Opposing that is limiting hunting opportunities. No?

I don't believe bow hunters kill all the muler deer...not many people do but I do think a MD archery draw is not a bad idea.

I also think looking at the landowner tag system is long overdue. Rather than giving a bunch of tags to landowners why don't they enter a draw like everyone else but as their perk for retaining habitat and wildlife on their land they can purchase their drawn tag at a discounted price....just an idea...

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

BTW if the system could be proven to provide accurate TRANSPARENT data I would have no problem with the draws, I feel we need to manage all aspects of population control. IMO we have been shown time and time again that these clowns do not manage wildlife worth a damn.

They aren't managing wildlife in this instance...they are managing hunters.....that's the point I've been trying to make all along. I'd say stats to support managing hunters are pretty easy to come by....managing game not so much. Be mad at SRD all you want...but be mad for the right reasons.

I don't consider them much different.

I guarantee anyone with a semester of statistics under their belt does.

Your standing in the hunting community and being so close to the powers that be make you a little less impartial, I have seen your show and read your articles, you seem pretty quick to blow smoke up the SRD's rear end whenever possible.

LMAO...that could be the funniest thing I've ever read on AO messageboard. I suspect some of the powers that be in SRD would have a very different opinion...OMG....that was hilarious

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by AxeMan

Potty, to me your are completely twisting this around to suit your needs. Sorry bud, but that is how I feel. This is about conservation of the herds and it is damn well time the bow hunting crowd accepts that they are a part of it.

Wildlife management must look at everything: Rifle hunting, bow hunting, guide allocations, land owner tags, etc. The way you are talking is that the bow hunters should be left out of this even though the numbers suggest that the 15% harvest is being exceeded in many wmus. You may dispute the numbers but go argue that to the powers that be. Trying to twist this and say it is bad for all hunters is absurd. Doesn't bother me a bit. It just makes me think that SRD is doing a good job keeping the system more fair for hunters of all choice of seasons and weapons.

Here is some literature I got right off the ABA website that outlines the subject at hand just like Sheephunter nicely summarized for us a few post back.

http://www.bowhunters.ca/files/Downl...0on%20Draw.doc

And Justin, while I agree with you that many other factors such as landowner tags should be looked at too; this takes nothing away from the fact that the bow harvest must be considered in a wildlife management plan and may require a draw if the harvest is in fact beyond the threshold.

The bow zone only is another red herring argument you guys are using. Go hunt there with your bows by all means, but if the bow harvest is too great to sustain the herd then it must be managed with draws...period.

Sorry, I see a real lack of acceptance of wildlife management by some on here. They want to argue that it shouldn't be splitting hunters that choose different seasons and weapons but they want their cake and eat it too.

I for one am 100% ok with a draw if it is like antelope. I also want to see rifle tags cut way back. Way more then there is rite now. I also want land owner tags gone and outfitter tags lowered to the true zone percentage or just add them to the draw system aswell. I also want there to be a trophy deer like there use to be in the 90's but hey we all can't live a pipe dream. Lol.

[eggo]

Md draw is likely going to happen, when it does maybe some of the people on here can look passed their nose and concentrate on some of the other issues.

[ganderblaster]

If they are going to reduce opportunity cut out the non-residents it is working out very well in Saskatchewan why not here?

Originally Posted by muledeerking

I for one am 100% ok with a draw if it is like antelope. I also want to see rifle tags cut way back. Way more then there is rite now. I also want land owner tags gone and outfitter tags lowered to the true zone percentage or just add them to the draw system aswell. I also want there to be a trophy deer like there use to be in the 90's but hey we all can't live a pipe dream. Lol.

Just throwing this out there but why not a draw where you can only apply for one or the other...archery or rifle? It would sure make archery tags a lot easier to come by. When you look at the wait times for archery antelope tags, it's going to be a lot of years between tags for mule deer archers as a vast majority of hunters will put in for both if they can. I know I'd rather they did it that way. What's everyone else think?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just throwing this out there but why not a draw where you can only apply for one or the other...archery or rifle? It would sure make archery tags a lot easier to come by. When you look at the wait times for archery antelope tags, it's going to be a lot of years between tags for mule deer archers as a vast majority of hunters will put in for both if they can. I know I'd rather they did it that way. What's everyone else think?

I said this very thing 5 pages ago. Either bow or rifle and can only apply for one or the other. Make the seasons for either the full length. If people could only apply for one or the other in the antelope draws the bow numbers would drop off drastically.

[Dan Boone]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just throwing this out there but why not a draw where you can only apply for one or the other...archery or rifle? It would sure make archery tags a lot easier to come by. When you look at the wait times for archery antelope tags, it's going to be a lot of years between tags for mule deer archers as a vast majority of hunters will put in for both if they can. I know I'd rather they did it that way. What's everyone else think?

Sounds awesome to me.

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by muledeerking

I for one am 100% ok with a draw if it is like antelope. I also want to see rifle tags cut way back. Way more then there is rite now. I also want land owner tags gone and outfitter tags lowered to the true zone percentage or just add them to the draw system aswell. I also want there to be a trophy deer like there use to be in the 90's but hey we all can't live a pipe dream. Lol.

Yes, there we go. Am I hearing an ounce of acceptance that ALL harvest must be considered in a wildlife management plan.

Justin, I know that you are passionate about mule deer and that is super and I think your true concern is proper wildlife management. I will certainly agree with you that the harvest numbers better be accurate on all accounts though.

I am passionate about moose hunting and since the draw has been instituted in my zones of choice, the quality and number of the bulls has risen dramatically. I have accepted that I can't harvest a bull every year too. SRD sometimes gets it right too.

[eggo]

Sheep that is a great idea

[muledeerking]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just throwing this out there but why not a draw where you can only apply for one or the other...archery or rifle? It would sure make archery tags a lot easier to come by. When you look at the wait times for archery antelope tags, it's going to be a lot of years between tags for mule deer archers as a vast majority of hunters will put in for both if they can. I know I'd rather they did it that way. What's everyone else think?

Why is it cause of plain missmanagement should you have to choose either or? How about all rifle be black powder/open sites and only use round balls. This whole thing is starting to turn it to a joke. TJ you are really going to jump on that band wagon? But hey make it a province wide tag that goes 3 months I am in

Originally Posted by muledeerking

Why is it cause of plain missmanagement should you have to choose either or? How about all rifle be black powder/open sites and only use round balls. This whole thing is starting to turn it to a joke. TJ you are really going to jump on that band wagon? But hey make it a province wide tag that goes 3 months I am in

And here I thought it was such a simple question......

[AxeMan]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Just throwing this out there but why not a draw where you can only apply for one or the other...archery or rifle? It would sure make archery tags a lot easier to come by. When you look at the wait times for archery antelope tags, it's going to be a lot of years between tags for mule deer archers as a vast majority of hunters will put in for both if they can. I know I'd rather they did it that way. What's everyone else think?

Yes, why not. And if the application pressure increased well beyond the 15% for archery then they must be allocated their share of the draw tags. Maybe another factor that could be thrown in the formula is the harvest ratio between archey and rifle. The draw tag balance should reflect the harvest expectation not just the application pressure. This is likely in the formula now for the rifle seasons.

This would help make the choice of weapon and season more of a choice based on personal preference and challenge level and not one based on harvest opportunity alone. It would not reduce opportunity for all, it would balance it better.

Originally Posted by AxeMan

The draw tag balance should reflect the harvest expectation not just the application pressure.

Absolutely.