CWD update (27-Feb)

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by WTBooner

From my understanding Colorado has come to the conclusion that CWD exists thoughout the state and has now basically gone the "Mother Nature Route".

Listen you guys, to make statements like this is absolute nonsense. Colorado has not gone the Mother Nature route, nobody has!! That is not an option.

Here is Colorado's plan for 2008.

Preventing the spread of chronic wasting disease beyond historically infected areas.

How? By forgetting about it! Of course not, by killing more deer in the infected area. Essentially - culling.

Reducing chronic wasting disease prevalence within infected areas by removing deer and elk from diseased herds.

Same thing!

Enforcing illegal feeding regulations and transport laws restricting the movement of deer, elk and moose from infected areas or into the state.

Hence, baiting and game farming.

Continuing research in conjunction with other agencies and states to further knowledge to manage affected deer, elk and moose herds.

[Double Shovel]

I get tired of hearing the word "spreading".It is nature,it may have been here for ever.If we can control mother nature than we better get some forms up to ice cap and brace it from falling in the ocean.I would be willing to bet that if they did a cull up in the Peace Region where populations are higher they may be suprised as well as other areas in the province.I don't believe the word spread.Quit f.@%#ng with nature.

Originally Posted by Double Shovel

I get tired of hearing the word "spreading".It is nature,it may have been here for ever.If we can control mother nature than we better get some forms up to ice cap and brace it from falling in the ocean.I would be willing to bet that if they did a cull up in the Peace Region where populations are higher they may be suprised as well as other areas in the province.I don't believe the word spread.Quit f.@%#ng with nature.

You may be right that it's in other parts of the province but I'd question whether it was Mother Nature that was responsible for introducing it to those regions.

[WTBooner]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

If we quit controlling deer numbers and go the "Mother Nature" route, we'd have an entire province filled with frothing-at-the-mouth deer.

Making statements like this is nonsense. Agreed, we're far beyond doing the mother nature route but fear mongering about the unknown doesn't do any good. I strongly doubt there's any scientific evidence to prove the "province full of frothing-at-the-mouth deer" thing. Deer numbers can be kept in control without culling. Is Colorado actually culling? It sounds more like wildlife management to me. Granted, I haven't read their plan for 2008 but from what I hear it's ramped back a great deal from previous years. Why do you think that is?

[spurs]

Please

Somone here give me proof that this did not exist before the superior beings tested for it. I'm serious.

trophy deer (honeyhole) extinction, game farm bans, job justification, everybody has a reason for being pro or con. Therefore people against the cull use the nature card and people being pro cull use the game farm card.


What is with this imaginary "border" talk. Do you highly educated philosiphers believe the deer know any different if they are living in Alberta or Saskatchewan culling at hte border is being a mental midget. Baiting is bologny because if you get out of the city you will see the farmers have feed yards for the cattle and guess what is in them. further to the point of spreading these deer are moving because of the cull. Tell me I'm full of it and you have not seen it with your own eyes.


Believe half of what you hear and half of what you see.

[spurs]

Culling does not work and no it's not management and no it's not even an good attempt.

[packhuntr]

Man-o-man, its amazing how many people really couldnt care less about the future health of our herds in Alberta. Shes all about here and now eh..........Admit it fellas.

keep a strain on er.

[Rob Miskosky]

Increased numbers of tags given to hunters (CWD Control Tags) is just a pretty way to dress up culling. You are removing as many deer as you can in a given area - culling. Every province and state that has CWD is doing it because every scientific expert in the field of chronic wasting disease recommends it. It is an opportunity to slow down the spread of the disease until a cure or another option becomes available. Unfortunately there is no other option at this time but there are a tremendous amount of studies taking place across North America trying to figure this nasty beast out.

To say culling does not work, how do you know? If we weren't culling or offering extra hunting opportunities to slow this thing down where would it be right now? West of highway 2?

Mike, you say that baiting is bologny - tell that to the many scientists and biologists who completely disagree with you. You are wrong! Science proves it.

Until somebody can come up with another option (and let's not bring up Mother Nature again because this is rediculous) culling by F&W or the extra allotment of tags is going to continue.

How many times have we screamed and hollared that we should be following scientific data, but haven't. Science has predicted every single outcome that has happened where game farming is concerned. If you do this, you're going to get that.

For me, I'm going to leave this in the hands of the experts and follow their lead. We have a very intelligent wildlife disease specialist right here in Edmonton (Margo Pybus) who believes that reducing deer densities is of the utmost importance to slow down the spread of CWD. And there are relms of data to suggest that what we are doing is the only known way to stay on top of it.

I agree Rob and I think most experts do too that culling will slow the progress but ultimately we are doomed....unless that magic cure is found but then how do you administer it? I'm not criticizing what the government is doing but no one should be fooled into thinking it's a solution, it's a temporary measure at best. You and I likely won't see our hunting seriously affected by CWD but rest assured your son will.

[packhuntr]

This is what i see. I know afew folks opposed to the culling, but for the most part, they are only repeating something theyve heard, and havent gone the xtra to know what is going on. The rest are rabidly against it, and are very vocal about that. On this forum, i understand why afew are mad. I know Doubleshovel is in the guiding/outfitting line of work, only thing i dont know, is how many tags you have and approx how much money this is going to prevent you from making. Id say cost you, but that would be silly. Mikehunt and WTBooner, not sure why so mad, maybe the same situation, i dont know. All i see is abunch of people with monetary claims at stake shouting profanities and stomping around. Stop and think about the future boys, right now thats the only thing that should matter to any of us.

keep a strain on er.

[Rob Miskosky]

It's a temporary measure at best is correct, but it is buying us that time. Alberta is on the leading edge of the spread of CWD and, I think, short of one deer, every deer collected and tested positive was in the very initial stages of CWD. This is very encouraging. Because of this we have a unique opportunity to try measures that aren't available to other jurisdictions. The "Border Deer Sudy" is one of these initiatives that hopefully will help educate us in CWD and its relationship to deer movement and distribution. You can read about the Border Deer Study here: http://ursus.biology.ualberta.ca/

And because of my son and others like him, it is important that we do the best we can to ensure a hunting future for them. If this is the only known scientific way to help protect that future, I'm all for it.

[Rob Miskosky]

And for those of you who still don't think CWD is the most serious issue facing our North American ungulate populations, how is this for a statement:

"theoretical models suggest that mule deer populations in Colorado, at the heart of the affected area, will decline in 40-100 years and eventually die out. Thus the disease has the potential for large ecological and economic impacts."

[buck]

if there was a cure found they could maybe go about giving it to the deer the same way ontario does with the rabis vacine they have it in a small flavoured cube that they drop out of planes and the fox coon skunk and coyotes eat it and since they have been doing this rabis incedients have dropped considerbly
just a thought
something had to be done for rabis and something has to be done for cwd so hopefully they figure something out that helps

[Full Curl Earl]

And now the Fear Monger is at your door. CWD and the control or lack of it, should be closely monitored by the W.H.O. (World Health Organization).
(This panel of world renowned professionals, is the directing and coordinating authority for health within the United Nations system.) Our ability to halt Avian Influenza or Bird Flu when it arrives may be aided by our success or failure to halt CWD. Let's hope Cervids don't learn to fly! If we are unsuccessful with this fairly simple Prion, then bird flu will cause some serious problems.
Just food for thought.

Rob where did your last statement come from?

Also where did you get the Colorado info from, I know that there was an article by Todd Hartman from a Colorado Newspaper that quoted Mike Miller as saying that they were going to close the cull in certain areas because of lack of achieving goals. Basically, culled areas where showing similiar rates as adjacent non-culled areas. Also if your first comment is accurate then those models should be coming to pass already. The first reports of CWD in the research facilities in Colorado where in 1967. Beth Williams reported that it could easily have been in the wild for 30 years prior to that. If your models are accurate why are they considering to cull elk in those parks in Colorado not because of disease but overpopulation. Shouldn't there be a huge die off. Secondly, if the science was such a leader in all of this why are they still winter feeding in Jackson Hole. Finally, I'm not opposed to the cull but who was responsible for its design. I'm a little familiar with the Foot and Mouth outbreack that happened in the Southern States and Mexico in the 50's. That cull was massive granted it was limited to mostly domestic animals but non the less the design should be transferable. The first thing they did was draw a line in the sand well outside the infection area. Then they moved forward. It seems absolutely absurd to me to go straight to the middle of the problem and drop a bomb in there. What happens next everything scatters in all directions. I would suggest that the cull itself is spreading the disease. Plus if you want to bring up science then there are also proponents that suggest a cull might be the worst thing you can do. There is a possibility of some built in resistance in the herd, if you destroy all animals including the healthy ones you are limiting the herds ability to fight the disease, secondly if the disease is held up in the environment and then you create a hole you are just inviting in healthy animals to replace the removed ones which will then just become infected agian. This is a huge issue with many facets but the reality is that it might not be the horrible armegedon that some would have us believe, so I wouldn't put all my faith in the knee jerk genious that is Margo Pybus.

[WTBooner]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Mikehunt and WTBooner, not sure why so mad, maybe the same situation, i dont know. All i see is abunch of people with monetary claims at stake shouting profanities and stomping around. Stop and think about the future boys, right now thats the only thing that should matter to any of us.

keep a strain on er.

Packhuntr, I'm not mad at all, I don't know where you got this and I definitely don't have a monetary claim in the issue. As I said before, I'm as passionate about the resource as you are and I definitely want to avoid an armageddon type scenario. However, that doesn't preclude me from some critical thought. If what we're doing isn't working then maybe we should be doing something else. Rob, those theoretical models you speak of have already been proven to be inaccurate. Just because a scientist writes something doesn't mean it's true. Don't get me wrong, I am completely in favour of approaching this issue with science, but the science you speak of is theoretical. Maybe culling is the best option but I sure wouldn't bet my life on it from the facts I've seen. For those blindly in favour of the cull, if you truly are as passionate as you say you should research the issue further and not assume it's the answer because a specialist says so. Other "specialists" say otherwise. As I said before, specialists in CWD are really specialists in other areas because there isn't enough known about CWD to be a specialist in that field. It's good to trust your wildlife officials in most cases but this issue "may" be different. You're required to follow the law but you're not required to be sheep and blindly agree with a controversial issue. You owe it to the wildlife to look deeper.

[packhuntr]

You have some good points WTBooner.....I have also wondered if im not following blindly on this one. I guess in time we will know for sure what should or could, or even couldnt have been done about CWD. If this is the ground where we make a stand and fight the battle, i pray they have it right so we can be set up for a win in the war. Your right though, if we are looking good in the near furure, what have been the costs, and will we have a continuing fight because others didnt prepare as dilligently as we have. God only knows where shes all gonna wind up.

keep a strain on er.

[ctd]

The only specialist I have ever seen, heard or worked with were ones who told you so.
DOF, WLO Scientists etc are trying to play god. The best thin gfor them to do is continue to moniter the situation. I find it funny that they say they are seeing CWD spread uncontrollably yet with the extrmemly low results they have found so far they really have no idea.
Mans way of trying to controll nature we kill everything. This is not a solution it is a dumb idea made by a specialist.

Think of this, had we of killed every human known with the aids virus and or suspected with it where would we be now. The same place we are with the deer. Excpet the deer have shown less spread of the disease then we with aids.

To me a these specialist seem to know everything except the true nature of the level of this disease. The fact that they have found so few infected animals in these areas shows a gross over estimation as to what this disease really and truly is.

How about expanding their search and making every Western Canada Deer hunter mandatorly submit their Deer heads for exam. This would tell us the true nature of the beast.
To me this is another department trying to justify their costs with yet knowing what they are doing. The people in charge will be promoted along and given othe rmore important jobs in due time to smooth over the damage done now.

Lets as hunters and conservationists look into this matter on a larger scale then just a few isolated areas.

Is it really a surprise CWD is spreading, or has it always been there, we just can detect it now. (wow I thought Aids was limited to Africa, ohh wait we now have it here in NorthAmerica and wait it is a white male, how did that happen 15 years later the virus has been found to of been here longer then that)

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by ctd

How about expanding their search and making every Western Canada Deer hunter mandatorly submit their Deer heads for exam. This would tell us the true nature of the beast.

This has been my thought for a long time now. We have no baseline data that I'm aware of for western Canada. It simply hasn't been tested for or recorded over a wide ranging area or length of time.

How do we know that the CWD infection rates we're currently seeing are not the same rates that have existed for eons? They seem very low to me, even in the "hot spot" areas if taken as a percentage of the whole. Compare those percentages to the infection rates of common diseases, or even genetic mutation rates, and it seems to me they are not out of line.

I think of "Mad Cow", we're doing everything we possibly can and yet there are still infected animals popping up throughout North America. My opinion is we could kill every cow in NA except a handful, and you'd see BSE crop up again within a very limited number of generations.

I'm against the cull. I think it's a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction, at best a band-aid solution, to a problem that we don't actually understand. As it happens, the areas that are part of the cull are areas I've hunted since I was kid, and I've seen first hand the devastation that they've caused. I would feel exactly the same way though if this cull was taking place anywhere in Alberta.

Waxy

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by MAV

Rob where did your last statement come from?

That statement comes from the Border Deer Study in conjunction with both Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Originally Posted by MAV

Also where did you get the Colorado info from, I know that there was an article by Todd Hartman from a Colorado Newspaper that quoted Mike Miller as saying that they were going to close the cull in certain areas because of lack of achieving goals. Basically, culled areas where showing similiar rates as adjacent non-culled areas.

The Colorado information comes right from their hunting website and the information is current.

Originally Posted by MAV

Also if your first comment is accurate then those models should be coming to pass already. The first reports of CWD in the research facilities in Colorado where in 1967. Beth Williams reported that it could easily have been in the wild for 30 years prior to that. If your models are accurate why are they considering to cull elk in those parks in Colorado not because of disease but overpopulation. Shouldn't there be a huge die off. Secondly, if the science was such a leader in all of this why are they still winter feeding in Jackson Hole.

Sorry, not my models.

And Why are they doing a lot of things – game farming, baiting etc.? These are political based decisions, not the decisions of scientists, nor scientific data.

Originally Posted by MAV

Finally, I'm not opposed to the cull but who was responsible for its design. I'm a little familiar with the Foot and Mouth outbreack that happened in the Southern States and Mexico in the 50's. That cull was massive granted it was limited to mostly domestic animals but non the less the design should be transferable. The first thing they did was draw a line in the sand well outside the infection area. Then they moved forward. It seems absolutely absurd to me to go straight to the middle of the problem and drop a bomb in there. What happens next everything scatters in all directions. I would suggest that the cull itself is spreading the disease. Plus if you want to bring up science then there are also proponents that suggest a cull might be the worst thing you can do. There is a possibility of some built in resistance in the herd, if you destroy all animals including the healthy ones you are limiting the herds ability to fight the disease, secondly if the disease is held up in the environment and then you create a hole you are just inviting in healthy animals to replace the removed ones which will then just become infected agian. This is a huge issue with many facets but the reality is that it might not be the horrible armegedon that some would have us believe, so I wouldn't put all my faith in the knee jerk genious that is Margo Pybus.

Sounds like you and Margo had a run in somewhere. Listen, in Colorado CWD is endemic. In Alberta it’s not. You mention Elizabeth Williams, unfortunately she is no longer with us, but in her own words “Models of CWD epidemic dynamics suggest early, aggressive intervention via selective culling or more generalized population reduction show the greatest promise of preventing new endemic foci from being established.”

Is that not exactly what we are doing here?

So many of you are screaming and hollering that culling is a waste of time, yet not one of you has offered up a solution. You scream that science is a waste of time, yet bring nothing to the table to replace it.

Simply ignoring it (Mother Nature) is not an option.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by WTBooner

Packhuntr, I'm not mad at all, I don't know where you got this and I definitely don't have a monetary claim in the issue. As I said before, I'm as passionate about the resource as you are and I definitely want to avoid an armageddon type scenario. However, that doesn't preclude me from some critical thought. If what we're doing isn't working then maybe we should be doing something else. Rob, those theoretical models you speak of have already been proven to be inaccurate.

By who, and please show me where?

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by Waxy

I'm against the cull. I think it's a poorly thought out knee jerk reaction, at best a band-aid solution, to a problem that we don't actually understand. As it happens, the areas that are part of the cull are areas I've hunted since I was kid, and I've seen first hand the devastation that they've caused.

And your solution is?

Originally Posted by Waxy

I would feel exactly the same way though if this cull was taking place anywhere in Alberta.

Have to call you out on that one Waxy. Most of you that are screaming the loudest seem to be hunting in those areas.

[WTBooner]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Sorry, not my models

Obviously I know they aren't your models Rob, but in this discussion you were the one quoting them.

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

Listen, in Colorado CWD is endemic. In Alberta it’s not.

I don't think that has been established. At least not to my satisfaction.

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

So many of you are screaming and hollering that culling is a waste of time, yet not one of you has offered up a solution. You scream that science is a waste of time, yet bring nothing to the table to replace it

I did not say that culling was a waste of time (although it may be) and I admitted that I don't have a solution. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't look for one. Again, doing something just because we don't have a better idea doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Rob Miskosky]

And looking for a solution they are. And in the meantime, they are trying to keep CWD from becoming endemic in Alberta as it is in Colorado by extensive culling and the issuance of CWD tags.

I can't think of a better solution for the current situation.

[rcmc]

Can anyone remember when a desease has eliminated a specie such as mule deer as some models suggest? I can remember deseases devasting populations before but they came back as strong as before the outbreak.

[Double Shovel]

Packhunter,
You said some people are only going on what they heard and some haven't gone the extra mile to find out what is going on.How do you KNOW that I am in the outfitting business?I am against outfitting.I have a Taxidermy business right in 234 and receive animals from every zone that is being culled right now.What do you think reduced deer herds do for my business?Sounds like your a ranter too.I have been in the heart of what is going on and seen both sides and heard both sides and can see how it effects both sides.From what I see F&W has not really done a very good job keeping the public on their side.If they didn't take the "Non of your business approach"and have a public meeting before hand they may have had a little more support now.I have always said if they can prove that it will work than I am for it.But for me,it seems they are just taking a shot in the dark.
Here are some pics of the cull North of Provost
Pretty sad.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

And your solution is?

I don't have one, I'm not sure there is a solution as of now.

What's your point? That's a pretty poor argument it that's all you've got.

What about addressing the points that were made in my post rather than simply attacking me personally or attempting to shift the focus?

It's my opinion that what we're currently doing is largely ineffective, perhaps even harmful, and that more work needs to be done to understand the issue. Only from that can a solution to the problem be developed.

Have to call you out on that one Waxy. Most of you that are screaming the loudest seem to be hunting in those areas.

That's awfully bold and presumptive of you. You just publicly called me a liar.

Let's examine the possible reasons that those directly affected are screaming the loudest shall we?

It's awfully easy to sit back and agree that what's currently happening is "for the greater good" when it's not affecting you, or you feel that it is somehow protecting you. It's not so easy to simply accept the status quo when you've seen first hand what the status quo actually means. Maybe we should give some benefit of the doubt to those people with first hand experience regarding their motives. I'll bet dollars to donuts that people's opinion's of the cull, or at least their willingness to unconditionally accept it, would change drastically if the cull was going on in their backyard. That's simple reality.

I think these mass culls are a mistake, regardless of who's backyard they're happening in, and I'll stand by that statement.

Waxy

[Rob Miskosky]

My appologies Waxy if I offended you, wasn't my intent. I just want to hear solutions and not hollering that what we're doing is wrong.

I have been following and writing about CWD for several years and predicted that if game farming and baiting in Saskatchewan wasn't stopped we would be facing this problem in short order. Guess what?

[Rob Miskosky]

Not sure why you would show the fetus photo Double Shovel. Shoot a cow elk in November and you can pull the same thing out of it.

[Double Shovel]

Rob ,
I hope your not saying I got a photo from a different source only to make a big impact on what I posted.Those photos were sent to me and I know the guy who took them.I thought people would like to see what is happening.If the photo has crossed the line for board rules then please take it off.