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  #91  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by double gun View Post
Disease is disease. Was cwd always around? If there wasn't cwd you wouldn't be against baiting?
But disease is an issue...as others have pointed out, there are some positives to baiting but I just don't think they out weigh the negatives.
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  #92  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
Or correct existing ones such as mandatory requirements for all ranchers to ensure proper game fence enclosures for storage of hay to prevent the concentration of ungulates ? Or famers must have grains removed from fields in a timely mannor and stored as where ungulates can not access as current situations allow..

I know it is a pipe dream to think we care about the actual ruit causes of concentrated feeding locations in Alberta
I'd hardly compare a field of oats to a pile of oats but perhaps means of mitigating some of your other examples should be looked at.

I just don't see the point of adding to the problem. Two wrongs don't make a right. It much easier to prevent a new wrong from taking place than it is to right the wrongs of the past......
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  #93  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
But disease is an issue...as others have pointed out, there are some positives to baiting but I just don't think they out weigh the negatives.
Fair enough. Do you know of any diseases that affect bears, wolves or coyotes?
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  #94  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by double gun View Post
Fair enough. Do you know of any diseases that affect bears, wolves or coyotes?
Lots of diseases affect them but I'm not aware of any that are propogated by baiting in Alberta but I am open to being educated.
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  #95  
Old 12-06-2012, 01:54 PM
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Ok sheep were the srd baiting?.....

Chauvin-area rancher and avid hunter Don Chapman feels the lack of attention on the mule population was evidence of a ?rush-job? and that the cull?s mentality was directed more towards a herd reduction than collecting samples for CWD testing. He said if hunters were responsible for the herd reduction, it would have covered more ground and represented a wider testing base than the wildlife officers? version, which was primarily set up with bait stations in Dillberry Lake Provincial Park.

http://www.meridianbooster.com/2005/...s-and-feedback

Just wanted to point this out,
Here we are debating baiting and the all knowing were doing exactly that
This is my point, yah they may have got the majority coming to a bait but there is no way they were 100% effective in killing every deer that fed there
If they weren't to concerned about it why are so many sportman think baiting will only spread the disease, I don't buy that arguement
JMHO
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  #96  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:01 PM
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Xxxx
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  #97  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
WB, I do respect your position, but have to disagree How can there be as you say "Proof" that baiting spreads these diseases we are all concerbed about ? What they did a lab experiment I have not read about ? Like really, silly as it sounds, ungulates will always come in contact with each other no matter what, period. We can't prevent the natural instincts of these ungulates, it is what it is really.

In a nut shell, ungulates will continue to gather at ranchers salt licks, hay stacks, winter cattle feeding areas, and farmers grain piles and leaky bins no matter what. We can not prevent this, contact will happen and disease will spread... In nature the ungulates are very social as well, contact is made and areas shared at all time of the year..

CWD-info.org





In Alberta, the burdon of proof belongs to those who believe baiting "Does Not" increase the transmission rates of disease. Are you up to the challenge?



The perspective that ungulates make contact with each other naturally (non-human influenced) as an argument to allow increased focal points for disease transmission is narrow.

Limiting human caused ungulate concentrations for the purpose of reducing disease transmission is silly because the animals will make contact naturally?
So, when You have the flu, is it silly for you to take measures to prevent passing the bug on to your family, friends and co-workers?




We have the ability to reduce human caused sources of attractants that will concentrate ungulates. It makes sense to limit the sources of disease transmission rather than increase them.




BTW, Since this is a discussion regarding baiting for the purpose of Hunting, I'll leave the topic of Agricultural practices alone besides to state that farming has legislation regarding wildlife issues which includes the containment of harvested product. If required, agricultural practices will face tougher product storage regulations.
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  #98  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I'd hardly compare a field of oats to a pile of oats but perhaps means of mitigating some of your other examples should be looked at.

I just don't see the point of adding to the problem. Two wrongs don't make a right. It much easier to prevent a new wrong from taking place than it is to right the wrongs of the past......
This is a great debate and I do enjoy this discussion... But facts are facts and I will go backwards and restate that the infection rate from Sask to Alberta, where one province allows artificial baiting, and the other dose not, confirmed infection rates are near identical.

So truthfully the common practices of ranching and farming are as well near identical, so as the habits of the ungulates in both provinces, where then does one assume artifical baiting does increase or add to the problem ?

Looking at all the data published, similar habits of humans and ungulates in these neighboring provinces, artificial baiting certainly has NOT been proven to increase the transmission of CWD... I would expect to see at least a 10% greater increase in the data from Sask due to artificial baiting, but you don't....
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  #99  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:15 PM
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Sled,




What is the total number of confirmed CWD positive wild deer in Saskatchewan and in Alberta?

Figure this out and get back to me if you still think Sask. and Alberta are dealiing with equal CWD rates.
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  #100  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
This is a great debate and I do enjoy this discussion... But facts are facts and I will go backwards and restate that the infection rate from Sask to Alberta, where one province allows artificial baiting, and the other dose not, confirmed infection rates are near identical.

So truthfully the common practices of ranching and farming are as well near identical, so as the habits of the ungulates in both provinces, where then does one assume artifical baiting does increase or add to the problem ?

Looking at all the data published, similar habits of humans and ungulates in these neighboring provinces, artificial baiting certainly has NOT been proven to increase the transmission of CWD... I would expect to see at least a 10% greater increase in the data from Sask due to artificial baiting, but you don't....
If what you say about infection rates is documented as you portray, there are a few things to consider. CWD is relatively new in Alberta and Saskatchewan...new enough that a trend can't be established as to infection rates. Saskatchewan did a massive cull much earlier than Alberta. I could be wrong but I ddon't think that Saskatchewan's CWD monitoring program is as comprehensive as ours so I'm not sure that you can really make the statement you are...without a lot of caveats.

I'd be interested in seeing your reference to the infection rates in both provinces....I haven't seen it.

Last edited by sheephunter; 12-06-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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  #101  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I'd hardly compare a field of oats to a pile of oats
Agreed, but who doesn't get excited seeing a swathed field they can hunt on that didn't gt the grain removed before first snow?

Baiting, right or wrong, happens...

I'd love to be able to sit in a heated blind with my 5 year old and see a ton of deer. I'd gladly buy oats or alfalfa bales for that. Doesn't make me a bad person!

I'd still hunt other ways too. I'd still float the rivers, hike or bike in the mountains, walk and glass the coulees out east, push bush, hunt in unbaited blinds and stands and occasionally take that morning or evening drive (the Horror!) But for me I'd like that option sometimes as well.

With few exceptions the WT shows in Sask are all filmed on them, and I'm not going to lie it looks pretty cozy. My kids have asked why we don't see that many deer and hunt in blinds like those. I know they'd be way more enthused if they could... My daughter (9) loves to tag along, but after 4-5 miles slogging in the snow she's done...

I buy twice as many 2nd cut round bales than I'll need for my animals and the reason is I roll them out come January. If the deer could talk I know they'd say 'Thank you'... If they're correct and 5% of the population dies from CWD, it's better than 50% in a bad winter...

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  #102  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:41 PM
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I could be wrong but I ddon't think that Saskatchewan's CWD monitoring program is as comprehensive as ours so I'm not sure that you can really make the statement you are...without a lot of caveats.
Heads from a four corners of Saskatchewan are being submitted for CWD testing. I have only the stats to the end of 2010 but up to this date 47,580 animals have been tested. It runs about 6000 a year. Of these animals 250 mule deer, 63 whitetail deer and 3 elk tested posative.
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  #103  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:43 PM
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Heads from a four corners of Saskatchewan are being submitted for CWD testing. I have only the stats to the end of 2010 but up to this date 47,580 animals have been tested. It runs about 6000 a year. Of these animals 250 mule deer, 63 whitetail deer and 3 elk tested posative.
Thanks! So that's over an 8 year period roughly?
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  #104  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:50 PM
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Well the "reason" would be experience and dedication to the passion of the whitetail deer Knowing when to hunt a stand and knowledge of where to set-up and why has the CWTV team tipping over mature deer every season.. One thing about CWTV, average people with full time jobs sharing their passions with the general public, these are NOT full time outdoor producer types, only Pete..

Something to think about, the AO idol, Cody who kills monster donkeys does this with-out the use of bait, obviously because the Mule deer is not similar in habits as the whitetail.. So Cody does bait for whitetails but his success rate is actually poor in comparision to his mule deer accomplishments.. What does this tell our community ? Cody is an amazing sportsmen with a passion for all species, but continues to struggle with the jumpers year after year, employing the same techniques as these part time others who get it done year after year

If "baiting" was the ticket, well I am pretty certain Mr. Robins would be show casing many a 200 inch purdy deer as opposed to the giants with big ears...
Location is everything. If you don't have 200" WT living near your, you're not going to get one by baiting. Don't think baits come with teleport...
Cody kills big mulies cause he puts in a ton of time scouting and has great areas to hunt! He does however hunt a lot of agricultural land before harvest. Basically hunting the food source for mulies, then creating one (baits) to hunt whitetails. Nothing wrong with it, it's legal and it works.

But most importantly these guys all have great areas, good setups and time. That, and knowledge the have accrued from those 3 things, is what makes them successful. Baiting and a bit of luck likely just tip the odds a bit more in their favor.
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  #105  
Old 12-06-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mmiddlemiss View Post
I am fairly new to reading all these threads, so I am sure that this topic has been discussed before.

I am wondering what everyone's thoughts/comments are if Alberta legalized baiting deer?

I am not saying that I want this to happen or that I would agree with it, just wanted to know where everyone else stands on this topic.
Wow look what you started!LOL!!
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  #106  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:00 PM
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Wow look what you started!LOL!!
Haha..... .... Too funny

180 degrees when you put cwd in the mix.......

WAY Too many unknowns if you ask me....

Nikon
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  #107  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NIKON View Post
Haha..... .... Too funny

180 degrees when you put cwd in the mix.......

WAY Too many unknowns if you ask me....

Nikon


CWD is just one of Many diseases where transmission rates increase when ungulates are forced or encouraged into close contact.

Here are a few more.... Most of which are transmittable to other wildlife and livestock. Several of which ARE transmittable to humans....


Bluetongue
Bovine tuberculosis
Brucellosis
Cranial abscessation syndrome
Elaeophorosis (lumpy jaw)
Epizootic hemorrhagic disease
Foot and mouth disease
Leptospirosis
Lyme disease
Malignant catarrhal fever
Meningeal brain worm
Para tuberculosis (Johne’s disease)
Rabies
Tularemia


IMO, The disease issue alone is more than enough to keep baiting of ungulates an illegal practice.
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  #108  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
CWD is just one of Many diseases where transmission rates increase when ungulates are forced or encouraged into close contact.

Here are a few more.... Most of which are transmittable to other wildlife and livestock. Several of which ARE transmittable to humans....


Bluetongue
Bovine tuberculosis
Brucellosis
Cranial abscessation syndrome
Elaeophorosis (lumpy jaw)
Epizootic hemorrhagic disease
Foot and mouth disease
Leptospirosis
Lyme disease
Malignant catarrhal fever
Meningeal brain worm
Para tuberculosis (Johne’s disease)
Rabies
Tularemia


IMO, The disease issue alone is more than enough to keep baiting of ungulates an illegal practice.
HEY WALKING

Is the cwd actually spreading like cancer as certain posters have suggested
or is the province just testing further into the province?
Can one actually make this assumption?......
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  #109  
Old 12-06-2012, 03:51 PM
kingjames30-378 kingjames30-378 is offline
 
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I think people forget we dont all like to hunt the same way. I like to walk some days for the whole day, some days i sit in one or two spots that i can see a fair distance or watch a well used trail etc and wait there all day. Im sure some of the sask guys will tell you. Just because you have bait out doesnt mean your going to shoot a big deer or even see them. IMO having bait out isnt much different from the land owners that have deer feeding on alf alfa or what ever. I dont think there's anything wrong with it. Some like to wait for the animals and some like the spot and stalk, each to there own. It should be what ever makes hunting exciting for YOU. as long as the next guy isnt breaking the law, let him hunt the way he wants to..
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  #110  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Don K View Post
Location is everything. If you don't have 200" WT living near your, you're not going to get one by baiting. Don't think baits come with teleport...
Cody kills big mulies cause he puts in a ton of time scouting and has great areas to hunt! He does however hunt a lot of agricultural land before harvest. Basically hunting the food source for mulies, then creating one (baits) to hunt whitetails. Nothing wrong with it, it's legal and it works.

But most importantly these guys all have great areas, good setups and time. That, and knowledge the have accrued from those 3 things, is what makes them successful. Baiting and a bit of luck likely just tip the odds a bit more in their favor.
Excluding mule deer spotted from the road, time is spent feeding/baiting WT's and monitoring trail cameras. Good setups because of feeding/baiting the deer year 'round in a specific area. More like information than knowledge. A few years of feeding prime, genetically superior bucks the right "$tuff" and you could grow a 200+ inch Sask WT. By that time he just may be tame enough to see and kill around the feeding area during legal shooting time, especially outside of the rut in late Sept-early Oct or early Dec. I recall Dean Partridge stating he waits until a big buck starts showing up at the feeding area during legal light (this scouting info comes via trail cameras) and only then will he set up to harvest the buck. There are methods to increase the odds of big bucks coming into feed/bait during daylight and not just at night. There are ways to hunt around/not necessarily right on the bait for the big bucks. Bait hunting done correctly tips the odds more than a little. Sask outfitters/hunters have proven this. I know of more than a few giant Sask bucks taken with the aid of bait.
With regard to patterning/hunting big WT bucks, there is a difference between an unharvested 1/4 section grain field and 25-50 pounds of oats you place at a strategic time and location.
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  #111  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:11 PM
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NO !!!!!!!!!!!

Technically we already hunt bait-large tracks of farmland. Thats my opinion.


Also I think if you need to hunt over bait for elk, deer, moose (BTW I do not hunt bears) you need to practice your HUNTING SKILLS
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  #112  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:36 PM
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Thanks! So that's over an 8 year period roughly?
I think it started in 1997. The last few years it has remained about 6000 per year and there has been samples from just about every zone in the province sent in each year. In 2011 Alberta tested a little over 3000 animals.



Quote:
Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD)

Last Reviewed: November 2011

What is chronic wasting disease?

CWD is a disease found in some deer, elk and moose populations. CWD damages portions of the brain and typically causes progressive loss of body condition, behavioral changes, excessive salivation and death. The cause of the disease is suspected to be a type of prion (protein infectious particle) that is found in some tissues of infected animals.

Are prion diseases transmissible to humans?

Although there is considerable ongoing research on this issue, there is no confirmed human neurologic disease linked to CWD at this time. In addition, there have never been any indications of human illness related to scrapie, a prion disease found in sheep. However, ingestion of cattle infected with bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) overseas appears to be related to human deaths from a new variant of a previously identified neurologic disease, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD).

Where does CWD occur?

CWD is a disease that is unique to North America. As of 2008, CWD has been found in wild deer, moose and elk in Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, South Dakota, Utah, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming and in the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan. In captive deer and elk, it has been found in Colorado, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New York, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and in the Canadian provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan.

How is CWD transmitted?

Experimental evidence indicates that infected animals probably transmit the disease through animal-to-animal contact and/or contamination of feed or water sources with saliva or bodily waste material. There is experimental evidence of environmental contamination of the soil through decomposition of infected deer carcasses as well as from feces or urine from infected deer. The transmission may be enhanced when deer and elk are congregated, such as around man-made feed and water stations.
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  #113  
Old 12-06-2012, 04:51 PM
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I think it started in 1997. The last few years it has remained about 6000 per year and there has been samples from just about every zone in the province sent in each year. In 2011 Alberta tested a little over 3000 animals.
Cool...thanks!
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  #114  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:13 PM
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Should animals that are taken over bait be in a different record book? Does this still fall under fair chase? As fair as not baiting?
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  #115  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:14 PM
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Should animals that are taken over bait be in a different record book? Does this still fall under fair chase? As fair as not baiting?
B&C says you are good to go as long as it's legal where you are baiting.
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  #116  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:19 PM
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The fact is baiting by land owners for the purpose of hunting in this province is far more common than anyone could emagine. Everything from oats to planting small areas of winter wheat to special runs of clover, alphalfa the list goes on. I am sure if they stopped the sale of these artificial baits it would have little effect on the situation. Why would a land owner pay for some fake crap that the deer don't like anyways instead of using what he already has. As far as the argument goes about whether it brings in big deer or not, do you guys not pay attention to most of the trail cam pics that are posted on these sites ? The majority of these pics are takin over baits, just pay attention. I don't know,, I see some pretty darn nice deer standing over piles of hay. If its allowed for pics why not hunting ? Just another one of those things I geuss. I bougjt myself 70 acres of land, 50 open, I am planning on working it over and putting in fresh alphalfa, and soon after a nice heated elavated blind,, am I baiting and as some would say unethical ?? I will let a local land owner take off the hay and bailes to keep it maintained, my own little hunting paridise for those cold Nov nights. No I will not hunt it exclusively but its going to be sweet to have. So am I unethical or brakeing the law ? Its happening over thousands of places in this province from what I can tell SRD could really care less.
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  #117  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NIKON View Post
HEY WALKING

Is the cwd actually spreading like cancer as certain posters have suggested
or is the province just testing further into the province?
Can one actually make this assumption?......


I think the cancer analogy is fair. The CWD "cancer" metastasized from its origin, mostly due to transportation of "wildlife" for game farming operations.

There has been random testing in non-confirmed CWD areas throughout North Amarica.




Anyone can make any assumption they want.

Like assuming that baiting Does Not increase the potential for disease transmission.
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  #118  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:28 PM
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I think the cancer analogy is fair. The CWD "cancer" metastasized from its origin, mostly due to transportation of "wildlife" for game farming operations.

There has been random testing in non-confirmed CWD areas throughout North Amarica.




Anyone can make any assumption they want.

Like assuming that baiting Does Not increase the potential for disease transmission.
I wasn't really talking North america in general. I was refering to Alberta. I'm a hard guy to convince. Theres a post at the top of hunting discussion saying cwd is spreading at an alarming rate. Now without knowing the number of heads tested year to year and new zones being tested further from the border is this a fair assumption?
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  #119  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:33 PM
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Legalize it. Most of the landowners I know who hunt are already baiting (i.e. missing a corner of alfalfa while haying, allowing a "little" overspill of grain while combining, leaving their surplus pile of grain in a convenient location until the season is over, a few round bales left near the bush for the elk etc.). All under the guise of "regular agricultural practices". Make it legal on private land only.
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  #120  
Old 12-06-2012, 07:07 PM
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If it keeps the truck "hunters" sitting in a stand and not driving circles around mine, I'm all for it.
Those *ricks are going to tag a deer either way but it will be standing still when they shoot.
How many do they wound and lose when shooting running deer from the road.
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