Tournament Mortality Rates

[Levy]

Had no idea it could be this bad. Its an interesting read. If this info is correct I think walleye tournaments should be restricted to the specified cold water season.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildli...ns-Oct2011.pdf

[pickrel pat]

pelicans are routinely seen chasing after SAWT anglers down the hiway, heading to the next tourney.......... heck, the old pelicans fly ahead and greet the anglers upon their arrival! And the very very old pelicans know the tourny circuit better than the organizers!

[npauls]

We rarely have a mortality in the SAWT.

We can't even get CFE permits for July and August and that is why our tournaments are always in May and June and this year we have one in September. The water temps in July and August are way to hot for a good survival rate.

There is more uneducated anglers and poachers around the province that do more damage in a single weekend then the SAWT anglers do.

[Freedom55]

As mentioned in another thread, the mortality rate at last (June30 & July1) weekend's WCWT sanctioned tournament on Delaronde lake at Big River was 2%, three fish on Saturday when it was smoking hot and two on Sunday when we battled up to 1m waves most of the day. That is equal to one angler's limit for a day of catch and keep, and there were 82 anglers on the water for two days.

Pre-fishing days are not for catching large numbers of fish; rather, they are days used to mark fish on the GPS for further exploration on game day, so mortality rates are negligable.

The numbers as presented by SRD are, by their own admission, estimated and therefore flawed when compared to real time observations, as presented by the tournment director (a retired Conservation Officer) and his still employed colleague during his presence at the tournament.

Free

[cube]

Thanks for the great info Levy. Totally agree with you on restricting it to the cold water season. Though I must say I think they are already doing that in lakes that can't support the unintended harvest.

To tell you the truth it is far better than I thought. Less than 1 mortality per tournament angler in 3.65 days when temps are less than 18 degrees seems quite reasonable. According to the data then that would be about the same rate that the average CNR fisherman has in a weekend. (Just basing that on myself, while not a good walleye fisherman at all I did catch 60 last weekend X 1.8% equals 1 fish removed from the lake). Given that these tournament anglers are still going to be fishing and not staying at home playing cards on the weekend if the tournaments closed down I guess we have a net sum of zero to be gained by closing the tournaments down, as long as said lake can handle CNR fishing that is.

While not suggesting this at all, it does give some thought to closing CNR fishing in July and Aug where the average weekend CNR fisherman would be killing 333% more. (don't you just love percentages they can make things look anyway you want, as I could have just said 4% more and still been correct!)

Thanks again

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by npauls

We rarely have a mortality in the SAWT.

We can't even get CFE permits for July and August and that is why our tournaments are always in May and June and this year we have one in September. The water temps in July and August are way to hot for a good survival rate.

There is more uneducated anglers and poachers around the province that do more damage in a single weekend then the SAWT anglers do.

SAWT contributes to fish mortality, don't kid yourself. The impact on fisheries is cummulative, not due to one source or another.

What are poaching SAWT anglers called?? Cheaters...

[Levy]

I can see how recreational anglers could do more damage than the tournament guys. Guys and gals in tournaments are usually a little more serious about fishing and experienced and handle fish with more respect (ie not picking them up by the eyes). Closing the fisheries during the warm months seems like a good idea but i doubt the government would go for it seeing how those warm months likely attract the most anglers and provide the most purchases of fishing licences. I am curious if that is the case in any alberta waters like cube mentioned? I think for myself though Im not going to do as much catch and release fishing in august. Even though the catch and immediate release is 6% and i know im quicker and more careful than most. That 18 degree water temp leaves most of the year for angling.

The thing that struck me the most about this was how huge the gab in mortality rates of the fish in warm water when they were immediately release as opposed to weigh in and released. Just goes to show how harmful culling fish can be.

[npauls]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

SAWT contributes to fish mortality, don't kid yourself. The impact on fisheries is cummulative, not due to one source or another.

What are poaching SAWT anglers called?? Cheaters...

How do you poach during a tournament?

I am pretty mortality rates are kept during SAWT events and there are rarely any mentioned.

If you weigh in a floater or dead fish during an SAWT event I am pretty either that fish is dq'd or the team is dq'd.

Join the trail and you will see for yourself how things are.

You can talk all you want but until you experience it you really have nothing to back yourself up with.

[TROLLER]

I don't think the water temp is the deciding factor of mortality.

It is guys fishing the walleye in more than 25 FOW anything below that and you risk the fish bladder deflating and even tho you release the fish and it swims away under it's own power it soon will be floating belly up.

I have caught walleye many times that just could not be revived even tho I may have caught it in 15 FOW I always figure someone had hooked it up in deep water, released it and it will die not to far into the future.

IMHO

[cube]

I have always thought that CULLING should be made clearly illegal period. Even if a guy were to put refrigeration and pressurization into a live well I would still be against culling. Too me as soon as it goes into your boat live well, pail, what ever, it should be kept for disease control if nothing else. I think boats and especially live wells are very good at spreading pathogens around.

Good fishing to you

[AppleJax]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

SAWT contributes to fish mortality, don't kid yourself. The impact on fisheries is cummulative, not due to one source or another.

What are poaching SAWT anglers called?? Cheaters...

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by npauls

How do you poach during a tournament?

I am pretty mortality rates are kept during SAWT events and there are rarely any mentioned.

If you weigh in a floater or dead fish during an SAWT event I am pretty either that fish is dq'd or the team is dq'd.

Join the trail and you will see for yourself how things are.

You can talk all you want but until you experience it you really have nothing to back yourself up with.

Ask the guys who have been disqualified for doing so.

Using barbed hooks etc. Do you think barbed hooks can contribute to mortality in C&R?

There is always mortality in C&R fishing when enough fish are caught and released.

Yes, the fish that are weighed in must be alive.

This does not take into account fish that cannot be weighed in.

Like many things, there is no perfect solution, and I am ok with that fact that sometimes a fish gotta die.

But to suggest that tournaments are somehow special in the impact they have isn't very realistic. Especially with those "pro's" who somehow 'forget' to pinch their barbs.

Originally Posted by Levy

I think walleye tournaments should be restricted to the specified cold water season.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildli...ns-Oct2011.pdf

They pretty well are no that they require a permit.

Originally Posted by TROLLER

I don't think the water temp is the deciding factor of mortality.

Actually pretty well every study has shown that it's a huge factor.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Ask the guys who have been disqualified for doing so.

Using barbed hooks etc. Do you think barbed hooks can contribute to mortality in C&R? No proof that they do

There is always mortality in C&R fishing when enough fish are caught and released.

There's mortality is all fishing but it is very low in properly run and timed tournaments. Again, studies have proven this over and over again

Yes, the fish that are weighed in must be alive.

This does not take into account fish that cannot be weighed in.

Again, very low mortality in properly run and timed tournaments

Like many things, there is no perfect solution, and I am ok with that fact that sometimes a fish gotta die.

But to suggest that tournaments are somehow special in the impact they have isn't very realistic. Especially with those "pro's" who somehow 'forget' to pinch their barbs.

I'm guessing anglers from all walks of life occasionally forget to pinch a barb. It's easy enough to do.

[npauls]

Thanks for the reply TJ.

Pretty much sums up what I was going to say.

The team that was caught with a barbed hook was DQ'd. There are far more people out there fishing barbed hooks who aren't in a tourney then tourney anglers.

I am not saying there isn't mortalities in tournament fishing in Alberta. I am just saying it is quite rare to have a floater.

Like I said before. Join the trail and fish some tourneys if you want to actually see how things are ran. Until then your opinion doesn't really matter because you have no experience.

We have had Terry Clayton on the weigh boat in the past doing studies and checking things out and if I remember right he was really impressed at how things were ran.

[BeeGuy]

I don't doubt they are well run.

Some of the commentary was suggesting that there is next to no impact from tournament angling, and I find that to be unrealistic.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

I don't doubt they are well run.

Some of the commentary was suggesting that there is next to no impact from tournament angling, and I find that to be unrealistic.

They weren't all at one time but current permitting and monitoring pretty well ensure they are well run these days. Let's settle on minimal impact. Considering all of those anglers would likely be out fishing somewhere anyhow, regardless if there was a tournament or not, the impact is not really increased significantly. From the studies I've seen and was involved in mortality is well below 5%. I guess to some that may seem like too much...for others it's acceptable.

[BeeGuy]

Below 5% would be pretty amazing.

How long were the fish retained for in the study you participated in?

[wellpastcold]

All of the tournament fishermen that I know, care about the effects of mortality, delayed or otherwise. I think what SRD and the other hand ringers had better get there head around is that, as citizens of Alberta we have the same rights and privileges as non tournament anglers. Most competitive anglers I know, do not routinely harvest their limit either during prefish or when recreational fishing. They are certainly entitled to but most do not. If anyone sincerely believes that the mortality calculated in this study even comes close to what you see in even one day in June at Slave Lake for recreational angling harvest, your dreaming in technicolour. If you have ever been in the fish plants that process the whitefish netted from Slave Lake you might find it odd that a lot of wall space is devoted to posters indicating the proper way to process walleye. Perhaps the authors of this report should have expressed there assumptions in kilograms so that it could be considered against the allowable by catch of walleye in the whitefish netting seasons. Then it might be understood just how insignificant this amount of fish was. In my opinion, I think this information does exactly what it is intended to do; it pits one group against another. It also distracts our attention away from the fact that Alberta is arguably the richest province in Canada and yet spends a pittance on the protection and enhancement of our resources. So little is spent at ground level by SRD on actually improving the situation ie: stocking. This is not a new phenomenon. Divide and conquer is a pretty standard political tactic. Be careful who and what you support. I have noticed there are a number of anglers on this forum that fish quite a few days a week. Once the tournament anglers are sent packing to Saskatchewan where they are welcomed for the economic benefits they bring, who will be the next target? the guys who fish too often? Remember those same mortality stats apply to you. An angler is an angler.

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Below 5% would be pretty amazing.

How long were the fish retained for in the study you participated in?

Several days.

[schmedlap]

I think Sheephunter summed up the common sense analysis very concisely and accurately.
If I had known the advantages of fishing barbless, particularly for walleye and pike, years ago, I would have rendered all my stuff barbless long before I did, as a matter of personal enjoyment of the undertaking. When myself and my sons, or usual fishing acquaintances, fish outside Alberta, slt or fresh, regardless of what type of tackle or quarry, we now go barbless regardless of the regulations requiring it or not. Entirely aside from any legal requirement, I've found it has little or no net consequences in terms of actual "capture"(maybe its just for those experienced at this?), it is just so much easier to release the quarry (particularly large toothies, like pike) quickly and without evident harm, and it makes the whole experience more satisfying. I can't think of why I would ever want barbs on my hooks (with the possible exception of holding some kinds of bait - but don't we have the "technology" for that in most instances now?) again.
What is frustrating, I suppose, is that it is impossible to buy most end tackle of any kind without barbed hooks so it all has to be "modified". I understand that Alberta is such a small component of the overall market for such things that this is unlikely to change in the near term.
The consequence of the lack of retail barbless end tackle is that, of course, the cretins who don't care about regulations or the consequences to the resource, and have little chance of being punished for such ignorance, are not going to ever put forth the effort to modify. Hell, they can't even be bothered to read (if they can?) the regs. That represents a whole lot more fish mortality than all the tournaments combined and multiplied, by simple common sense.
I've even started removing the front set of double trebles on small cranks. After some experience of necessity (the last big pike removed them for me) I've discovered that, at least on some "fat rap" types and equivalents, I can outcatch my co-fishers in that mode, and it is even easier to release, less tangles in the net, etc.
I wouldn't mind at all paying a buck or two more for cranks and metal lures that come with barbless, and/or just less, hooks, if I could get them. Maybe there is a retailer out there who would consider doing their own pre-sale modifications and promoting this (?).

[TROLLER]

Weather they debarb the hook or not one of the deciding factors are some guys who fish a lindy rig use a very small size 10 hook. The fish has to take that hook all the way down it's mouth before the hook is set

9 times out of 10 the fish is bleeding when released. you tell me the result of that.

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Several days.

Are any of these studies published?
Got any reading material?

Originally Posted by schmedlap

I think Sheephunter summed up the common sense analysis very concisely and accurately.
If I had known the advantages of fishing barbless, particularly for walleye and pike, years ago, I would have rendered all my stuff barbless long before I did, as a matter of personal enjoyment of the undertaking. When myself and my sons, or usual fishing acquaintances, fish outside Alberta, slt or fresh, regardless of what type of tackle or quarry, we now go barbless regardless of the regulations requiring it or not. Entirely aside from any legal requirement, I've found it has little or no net consequences in terms of actual "capture"(maybe its just for those experienced at this?), it is just so much easier to release the quarry (particularly large toothies, like pike) quickly and without evident harm, and it makes the whole experience more satisfying. I can't think of why I would ever want barbs on my hooks (with the possible exception of holding some kinds of bait - but don't we have the "technology" for that in most instances now?) again.
What is frustrating, I suppose, is that it is impossible to buy most end tackle of any kind without barbed hooks so it all has to be "modified". I understand that Alberta is such a small component of the overall market for such things that this is unlikely to change in the near term.
The consequence of the lack of retail barbless end tackle is that, of course, the cretins who don't care about regulations or the consequences to the resource, and have little chance of being punished for such ignorance, are not going to ever put forth the effort to modify. Hell, they can't even be bothered to read (if they can?) the regs. That represents a whole lot more fish mortality than all the tournaments combined and multiplied, by simple common sense.
I've even started removing the front set of double trebles on small cranks. After some experience of necessity (the last big pike removed them for me) I've discovered that, at least on some "fat rap" types and equivalents, I can outcatch my co-fishers in that mode, and it is even easier to release, less tangles in the net, etc.
I wouldn't mind at all paying a buck or two more for cranks and metal lures that come with barbless, and/or just less, hooks, if I could get them. Maybe there is a retailer out there who would consider doing their own pre-sale modifications and promoting this (?).

It would be great if freshwater lure retailers would provide quality barbless hooks as well as designs which did not require 3 trebles, but that is a topic for another thread.

[ReconWilly]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

pelicans are routinely seen chasing after SAWT anglers down the hiway, heading to the next tourney.......... heck, the old pelicans fly ahead and greet the anglers upon their arrival! And the very very old pelicans know the tourny circuit better than the organizers!

so true...

[huntsfurfish]

I for one would welcome a study on delayed mortality for the SAWT. We have always placed the fish "first" (measuring instead of weighing, and until this year, requiring at least two trips to a weigh to weigh your limit, at one time(form the start till fairly recently we had a buffer so that fish sizes were 50.5cm and 55.5cm so that even if a short fish was brought in it was still a legal fish.) weigh boats acted as weigh stations on at least 2 spots on the lake and were mobile- which makes it easier on the fish)). From the beginning we stressed the need to stay out of deep water(and the vast majority complied).

I dont believe our rates as as high as other studies! When JC and I started the trail alot of thought went into that!

Originally Posted by TROLLER

Weather they debarb the hook or not one of the deciding factors are some guys who fish a lindy rig use a very small size 10 hook. The fish has to take that hook all the way down it's mouth before the hook is set

9 times out of 10 the fish is bleeding when released. you tell me the result of that.

I've fished livebait rigs for decades and the point of them is to allow the fish to get the bait in its mouth, not swallow it. On the rare occasion when a fish does take it in too far, you simply cut the line and let the hook fall out. No harm...no foul. We aren't talking trout here but walleye. They are far hardier when it comes to handling and hooking mortality.

[BeeGuy]

This is off topic, but does anyone ever catch trout while walleye fishing?

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Are any of these studies published?
Got any reading material?

I would suspect so. They were done in Saskatchewan, Minnesota and Alberta. Google is your friend.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've fished livebait rigs for decades and the point of them is to allow the fish to get the bait in its mouth, not swallow it. On the rare occasion when a fish does take it in too far, you simply cut the line and let the hook fall out. No harm...no foul. We aren't talking trout here but walleye. They are far hardier when it comes to handling and hooking mortality.

Exactly.