Hi Viz magnetic fibre optic sight

[Justfishin73]

Good morning all. Just curious how well these stay on traipsing through the bush if anybody has used them.

[elkhunter11]

If you are talking about putting one on a shorgun for wing shooting, the best thing that can happen is that it falls off. If you are using the bead as a sight, you aren't concentrating on the target.

[Justfishin73]

That's what I kind of thought, thank you

[MK2750]

In a perfect world everyone would be able to afford a shotgun that fits them right and practise enough to instinctively raise and fire that shotgun accurately.

This is not a perfect world and shot gunning for many is bush swatting a few Ruffies and a trip or two out with some friends for a goose shoot. They are primarily rifle hunters and happen to own a shotgun or two.

Will you ever become a master wing shooter looking at the sites or concentrating on aiming down a barrel? No, but you can become very good and bag your limit with whatever shotgun you may have both in the goose blind and in the upland field.

Geese/ducks back peddling over decoys and flushed pheasants/grouse are often near stationary targets that can be aimed at. At close range, very little compensation is needed to get ahead of a bird that starts to veer off course. You may shoot a bit of air when the wind is up or the birds are not cooperating by flying straight but a good time will be had.

Now, for the high visibility sites. IMO they are an awesome choice for the casual, primarily rifle shooting bird hunter. It is instinctive for most to look for sites when ever they raise a shotgun or rifle. The quicker they find reference and move on to concentrating on the target the better. High visibility also allow a novice to keep reference to the barrel without losing focus on the target. This is especially important if a gun doesn't fit exactly or if the person has a tendency to lift their head during target acquisition.

Point and shoot is all good and fine as long as you have practised enough to point a gun exactly where it is aimed and that gun is designed to throw the pattern exactly where you are looking. For many this is not happening, so aim, kill a bunch of birds with the shotgun you have and enjoy the day.

I have a shotgun that fits me poorly and throws a pattern much higher than I like. It belonged to my late father so I still like to take it out from time to time. I can easily shoot a limit of birds with it, but I need to reference the sites and aim where I know the pattern will hit the bird. It is no big deal, but I do end up needing a follow up shot on some birds I think should have folded and sometimes pass on some shots (mostly second shots) that would be automatic with my daily driver.

[elkhunter11]

And yet I have had people significantly improve their wing shooting , just by removing the extra hi viz strips that they had added to the rib. The strips had been drawing their attention, so they were not concentrating on the target . By the time they lined up the bead, the target was either too far, or it passed when they stopped their swing to steady their aim. Most people that I have worked with improved their shooting significantly, when they kept both eyes open, and stopped trying to aim. I can't recall one instance where adding a hi viz strip improved the person's wing shooting.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And yet I have had people significantly improve their wing shooting , just by removing the extra hi viz strips that they had added to the rib. The strips had been drawing their attention, so they were not concentrating on the target . By the time they lined up the bead, the target was either too far, or it passed when they stopped their swing to steady their aim. Most people that I have worked with improved their shooting significantly, when they kept both eyes open, and stopped trying to aim. I can't recall one instance where adding a hi viz strip improved the person's wing shooting.

High viz sites come standard, in different colors, on every high end auto loader made. Why? Because people like them.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And yet I have had people significantly improve their wing shooting , just by removing the extra hi viz strips that they had added to the rib. The strips had been drawing their attention, so they were not concentrating on the target . By the time they lined up the bead, the target was either too far, or it passed when they stopped their swing to steady their aim. Most people that I have worked with improved their shooting significantly, when they kept both eyes open, and stopped trying to aim. I can't recall one instance where adding a hi viz strip improved the person's wing shooting.

I can recall more than a few incidences where a hi viz sites have reduced ones ability to hit moving targets.

[Justfishin73]

Its for my 11 year old to put on a 12 ga---mainly ruffies now, waterfowl when hes old enough.....

[covey ridge]

Garden hoses are not custom fit nor do they come with hi viz sights but even with nozzle set narrow they are extremely accurate within range without sighting.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by MK2750

High viz sites come standard, in different colors, on every high end auto loader made. Why? Because people like them.

Yes, people do like them, but not because they are better. I have a few shot guns that came with them and I have installed a few when I lost the original sights on my Beretta autos. I installed them because I got a good deal on the hi viz kits.

When I lost my sights I got distracted, not because I needed the sights but because I was constantly being reminded that my sight was missing.

More than once I have lost the sight during an informal round of skeet and not noticed when it left.

[MK2750]

And yet I hear shot after shot and watch pheasant after pheasant fly unharmed away from the release sites.

If a gun shoots where you are looking than no sites are needed or recommended, if it doesn't just go ahead and keep missing by using the advise given above.

Nobody goes out to buy or uses a high viz because they are smashing clays and never missing birds.

So just how touchy is it?

I had my new Maxus set up with what I thought was the right amount of cast and shot a few clays to verify. Out to the duck blind and getting a way ahead of left to right swingers and clipping the tails of right to lefters. I throw the gun up and look at the sites for the first time that day and sure enough the mid bead and site are out.

Simple adjustment with a change of shims but no amount of practise was going to make this shotgun shoot to where I instinctively look when shooting. The fix for the day was to line up the sites and kill a bunch of birds. This will be the only fix if the gun was not adjustable or buy a new gun. Like I mentioned above most are not going to buy a new gun for a few days afield especially if custom work is needed.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Justfishin73

Its for my 11 year old to put on a 12 ga---mainly ruffies now, waterfowl when hes old enough.....

I am not really liking where this is going and obviously the thread is getting off track.

12 gauges and 11 year old kids can make a combination that leads to a lifetime of poor shooting habits. A sub gauge in a youth stock would be a much better option. There are single shot guns available for cheap. Most 12s are a heavy lug through the woods for a kid (and old guys like myself) and take a lot of enjoyment out of the day.

[Justfishin73]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I am not really liking where this is going and obviously the thread is getting off track.

12 gauges and 11 year old kids can make a combination that leads to a lifetime of poor shooting habits. A sub gauge in a youth stock would be a much better option. There are single shot guns available for cheap. Most 12s are a heavy lug through the woods for a kid (and old guys like myself) and take a lot of enjoyment out of the day.

Sorry, should have clarified, hes shooting a compact 20 ga sxp now, was looking at a good deal on a used 12 ga for when he is older. He's 5'4"--120 lbs and growing like a weed

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Yes, people do like them, but not because they are better. I have a few shot guns that came with them and I have installed a few when I lost the original sights on my Beretta autos. I installed them because I got a good deal on the hi viz kits.

When I lost my sights I got distracted, not because I needed the sights but because I was constantly being reminded that my sight was missing.

More than once I have lost the sight during an informal round of skeet and not noticed when it left.

More like the manufacturers have convinced people that they are an advantage. I shoot with two people that have lost the front bead from their shotguns, and neither one has bothered to replace them, because they never noticed them in the first place. I have been in situations where I had no choice but to shoot a shotgun that did not fit me properly, and once I saw where they shot, I just looked where I needed to , to place the pattern where it needed to be. If the gun shot higher than I was looking, I just looked under the target. I still didn't shoot as well as I normally would have but I wasn't shooting over the targets nearly as much, and I wasn't slowing down my shooting, by trying to aim using the beads.
Perhaps it's just me, but I have never liked the idea of intentionally encouraging poor shooting habits.

And yet I hear shot after shot and watch pheasant after pheasant fly unharmed away from the release sites.

Perhaps the birds flying away are a result of people trying to aim using the beads? As you posted, many shotguns do cme with high xiz beads these days. Oddly enough, my regular hunting partner and myself miss very few birds in the course of a season, in spite of shooting the sub gauge guns. Then again, we don't aim using the beads, and we both shoot clays on a regular basis.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

More like the manufacturers have convinced people that they are an advantage. I shoot with two people that have lost the front bead from their shotguns, and neither one has bothered to replace them, because they never noticed them in the first place. I have been in situations where I had no choice but to shoot a shotgun that did not fit me properly, and once I saw where they shot, I just looked where I needed to , to place the pattern where it needed to be. If the gun shot higher than I was looking, I just looked under the target. I still didn't shoot as well as I normally would have but I wasn't shooting over the targets nearly as much, and I wasn't slowing down my shooting, by trying to aim using the beads.
Perhaps it's just me, but I have never liked the idea of intentionally encouraging poor shooting habits.

Perhaps the birds flying away are a result of people trying to aim using the beads? As you posted, many shotguns do cme with high xiz beads these days. Oddly enough, my regular hunting partner and myself miss very few birds in the course of a season, in spite of shooting the sub gauge guns. Then again, we don't aim using the beads, and we both shoot clays on a regular basis.

I know you like to project yourself as an expert but lets remember that you have to check your watch to know how old your first real bird dog is. My eyes are so bad I can hardly see the barrel let alone the sites but can see and kill birds fine. You are literally preaching to the quire.

The vast majority of people are not like you. They do not shoot clays and go bird hunting only a couple of times a year. They miss, lots.

So then you say "Join a club and practise, practise, practise until your percentage is high 90%" but the vast majority of people don't.

So why do they miss? You say because they are not concentrating on the target. I know it is because the target is all they see and they have never developed the proper skill level to shoot where they are looking while watching that beautiful bird fly away.

If you are not willing (and the vast majority of people are not) to put in the time to develop these skills than you need to concentrate on getting the gun to aim where you are looking in the field.

If you want to test this theory, set up 3 pop cans on 3 well spaced fence posts (2 for double barrels) and ask the new or unaccomplished shooter to hit them without aiming as quickly as possible. I can almost guarantee you 3 misses.

Now ask that same shooter to take his time and aim. I can now almost guarantee you 3 hits.

If that shooter is willing to practise he will get much faster aiming and in time will not even realise he is no longer aiming just shooting and hitting what he is looking at. If he is not willing to practise (like the vast majority) then he is far better off aiming or he will be missing and looking at a bird flying away, again.

You talk about mentoring people at your club that are committed to making themselves excellent wing shooters. These people will be fine and no doubt will get better. I asked store owners why they don't carry more shotguns years ago and was told no one buys them around here, they use what is behind the door or in the truck. There are some goose hunters around here now but you seldom hear more than one group out on a Saturday. I know dozens of farmers and big game hunters that go out once or twice a year (I know because I take them) for a goose shoot and that is it. They have no use for more meat so don't go. They go for a drive and shoot a grouse or two if they see them, that's it.

Hunting and shooting is a lifestyle for very, very few people and those deeply committed are not on here asking for advice. Most are weekend warriors that need a little advice to get some more game in the bag and increase their enjoyment for one or two weekends a year. Telling the average Joe to knock the sites off his gun and suddenly and intuitively you will be smashing birds is like telling a weekend duffer to just "grip it and rip it" and you will be driving the golf ball like Tiger Woods.

[angery jonn]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I know you like to project yourself as an expert but lets remember that you have to check your watch to know how old your first real bird dog is. My eyes are so bad I can hardly see the barrel let alone the sites but can see and kill birds fine. You are literally preaching to the quire.

The vast majority of people are not like you. They do not shoot clays and go bird hunting only a couple of times a year. They miss, lots.

So then you say "Join a club and practise, practise, practise until your percentage is high 90%" but the vast majority of people don't.

So why do they miss? You say because they are not concentrating on the target. I know it is because the target is all they see and they have never developed the proper skill level to shoot where they are looking while watching that beautiful bird fly away.

If you are not willing (and the vast majority of people are not) to put in the time to develop these skills than you need to concentrate on getting the gun to aim where you are looking in the field.

If you want to test this theory, set up 3 pop cans on 3 well spaced fence posts (2 for double barrels) and ask the new or unaccomplished shooter to hit them without aiming as quickly as possible. I can almost guarantee you 3 misses.

Now ask that same shooter to take his time and aim. I can now almost guarantee you 3 hits.

If that shooter is willing to practise he will get much faster aiming and in time will not even realise he is no longer aiming just shooting and hitting what he is looking at. If he is not willing to practise (like the vast majority) then he is far better off aiming or he will be missing and looking at a bird flying away, again.

You talk about mentoring people at your club that are committed to making themselves excellent wing shooters. These people will be fine and no doubt will get better. I asked store owners why they don't carry more shotguns years ago and was told no one buys them around here, they use what is behind the door or in the truck. There are some goose hunters around here now but you seldom hear more than one group out on a Saturday. I know dozens of farmers and big game hunters that go out once or twice a year (I know because I take them) for a goose shoot and that is it. They have no use for more meat so don't go. They go for a drive and shoot a grouse or two if they see them, that's it.

Hunting and shooting is a lifestyle for very, very few people and those deeply committed are not on here asking for advise. Most are weekend warriors that need a little advise to get some more game in the bag and increase their enjoyment for one or two weekends a year. Telling the average Joe to knock the sites off his gun and suddenly and intuitively you will be smashing birds is like telling a weekend duffer to just "grip it and rip it" and you will be driving the golf ball like Tiger Woods.

Agree 100%

[angery jonn]

Perhaps the birds flying away are a result of people trying to aim using the beads? As you posted, many shotguns do cme with high xiz beads these days. Oddly enough, my regular hunting partner and myself miss very few birds in the course of a season, in spite of shooting the sub gauge guns. Then again, we don't aim using the beads, and we both shoot clays on a regular basis.[/QUOTE]

That's because hand fed chickens that have to be kick up aren't that fast or hard to hit...

I agree that fit is important, but to say the bead means nothing is ludicrous, why do sporting guns have raised ribs if it doesn't matter? Have you ever heard of back sighting?

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by MK2750

And yet I hear shot after shot and watch pheasant after pheasant fly unharmed away from the release sites.

If a gun shoots where you are looking than no sites are needed or recommended, if it doesn't just go ahead and keep missing by using the advise given above.

Nobody goes out to buy or uses a high viz because they are smashing clays and never missing birds.

So just how touchy is it?

I had my new Maxus set up with what I thought was the right amount of cast and shot a few clays to verify. Out to the duck blind and getting a way ahead of left to right swingers and clipping the tails of right to lefters. I throw the gun up and look at the sites for the first time that day and sure enough the mid bead and site are out.

Simple adjustment with a change of shims but no amount of practise was going to make this shotgun shoot to where I instinctively look when shooting. The fix for the day was to line up the sites and kill a bunch of birds. This will be the only fix if the gun was not adjustable or buy a new gun. Like I mentioned above most are not going to buy a new gun for a few days afield especially if custom work is needed.

For the most part what you describe is the same as taking a rifle hunting without sighting it in. When you adjusted your maxus you thought you had the right amount of cast? Stock adjustments including cast should be verified by shooting and patterning. The most visable sights lined up exactly is no guarantee that the gun will shoot where you look.

Many people shoot guns that do not shoot where they look. No matter how fancy the sights are, I have never seen anyone adjust the sights. Most good shooters will adapt with how they mount their gun on target and within a few shots will adapt to where they can do so more instinctively.

All those guys you mention that left those released birds fly away unharmed are probably not taking a good look at the target and are probably sighting.
Sighting is a mental adjustment that slows and often stops the gun and sometimes makes the bird seem way faster. The best hi viz in the world is not going to fix that and next year those released birds will probably still be flying.

You said "Out to the duck blind and getting a way ahead of left to right swingers and clipping the tails of right to lefters."

Without watching you shoot those shots, I would guess it is more mechanical than cast or sights.

All that said, I am amazed at how many suspect equipment error rather than shooter error

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by angery jonn

why do sporting guns have raised ribs if it doesn't matter?

I don't know other than I have owned sporting guns with high and low ribs and it did not seem to matter.

I will go with what Todd Bender says in one of his skeet instruction videos.
When showing off his K gun with a high and tapered rib Todd Bender says that he chose that rib for kool factor and nothing else.

[elkhunter11]

=angery jonn;3621468]Perhaps the birds flying away are a result of people trying to aim using the beads? As you posted, many shotguns do cme with high xiz beads these days. Oddly enough, my regular hunting partner and myself miss very few birds in the course of a season, in spite of shooting the sub gauge guns. Then again, we don't aim using the beads, and we both shoot clays on a regular basis.

That's because hand fed chickens that have to be kick up aren't that fast or hard to hit...

I agree that fit is important, but to say the bead means nothing is ludicrous, why do sporting guns have raised ribs if it doesn't matter? Have you ever heard of back sighting?[/QUOTE]

Why do you suppose that even the most high dollar hunting shotguns don't have those extra high ribs? Could it have something to do with the fact that unlike trap, where you mount your gun, position it , and then call for the target, when you are hunting you don't use a premounted gun, you don't know exactly where the bird is coming from, or which direction it will fly? As to having to kick up released pheasants, if you haven't had them run , sometimes for up to 50 yards before flying, then you haven't hunted them where we do. Sometimes the dog points a bird several times before it flushes, and sometimes the bird never stops and the dog never points it before it flushes. Sns2 and densa44 see this happen quite often, just as arrowdog and myself witnessed it this morning. These are not planted birds that stay where they are put until you kick them up with your foot. We do see some that sit tight and don't want to flush, but in recent years, we have seen just as many runners. And they aren't all in the open fields either, in fact more are usually in the brush and often flush through the trees .

[angery jonn]

Why do you suppose that even the most high dollar hunting shotguns don't have those extra high ribs? Could it have something to do with the fact that unlike trap, where you mount your gun, position it , and then call for the target, when you are hunting you don't use a premounted gun, you don't know exactly where the bird is coming from, or which direction it will fly?

When was the last sporting clays event you went to? The going trend is raised adjustable ribs.... in very high end guns, including your prized Kreighoff's.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by MK2750

It is instinctive for most to look for sites when ever they raise a shotgun or rifle. The quicker they find reference and move on to concentrating on the target the better.

In my not so humble opinion I think that is where most error, both shotgun hunters and rifle hunters. Instead of getting the gun to the shoulder and then looking at sights/scope and then locating game, I would suggest keeping both eyes open and focused on game and then inserting gun into proper spot or lead. With a rifle and a shot that is not rested, keep your eye on game and mount scope to line of sight on game.

I have seen more than a few rifle hunters shoulder their gun, look trough the scope, wobble around and lower gun and say, I can't find the deer because the scope power is too high. They go though the same thing all over and still not find the deer that is still standing there.

Keep eye on target and bring scope to eye without breaking sight on game.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by angery jonn

The going trend is raised adjustable ribs.... in very high end guns, including your prized Kreighoff's.

The key word here is trend and trend sells.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

For the most part what you describe is the same as taking a rifle hunting without sighting it in. When you adjusted your maxus you thought you had the right amount of cast? Stock adjustments including cast should be verified by shooting and patterning. The most visable sights lined up exactly is no guarantee that the gun will shoot where you look.

Many people shoot guns that do not shoot where they look. No matter how fancy the sights are, I have never seen anyone adjust the sights. Most good shooters will adapt with how they mount their gun on target and within a few shots will adapt to where they can do so more instinctively.

All those guys you mention that left those released birds fly away unharmed are probably not taking a good look at the target and are probably sighting.
Sighting is a mental adjustment that slows and often stops the gun and sometimes makes the bird seem way faster. The best hi viz in the world is not going to fix that and next year those released birds will probably still be flying.

You said "Out to the duck blind and getting a way ahead of left to right swingers and clipping the tails of right to lefters."

Without watching you shoot those shots, I would guess it is more mechanical than cast or sights.

All that said, I am amazed at how many suspect equipment error rather than shooter error

Having been wing shooting for nearly 50 years I know when a shotgun fits me and certainly don't need any advice. I didn't wander out without shooting the gun. It needed adjustment, nothing more.

IMO you are wrong but thanks for the unsolicited advice. My shooting is just fine and my advice to the OP can be read above. If you think one size fits all and that a change in equipment or adjustment doesn't matter to an accomplished shooter, you really should post less and read more.

[angery jonn]

Why do you suppose that even the most high dollar hunting shotguns don't have those extra high ribs? Could it have something to do with the fact that unlike trap, where you mount your gun, position it , and then call for the target, when you are hunting you don't use a premounted gun, you don't know exactly where the bird is coming from, or which direction it will fly? As to having to kick up released pheasants, if you haven't had them run , sometimes for up to 50 yards before flying, then you haven't hunted them where we do. Sometimes the dog points a bird several times before it flushes, and sometimes the bird never stops and the dog never points it before it flushes. Sns2 and densa44 see this happen quite often, just as arrowdog and myself witnessed it this morning. These are not planted birds that stay where they are put until you kick them up with your foot. We do see some that sit tight and don't want to flush, but in recent years, we have seen just as many runners. And they aren't all in the open fields either, in fact more are usually in the brush and often flush through the trees .[/QUOTE]

Why do you suppose those same high end hunting guns have beads...

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by MK2750

Having been wing shooting for nearly 50 years I know when a shotgun fits me and certainly don't need any advice. I didn't wander out without shooting the gun. It needed adjustment, nothing more.

IMO you are wrong but thanks for the unsolicited advice. My shooting is just fine and my advice to the OP can be read above. If you think one size fits all and that a change in equipment or adjustment doesn't matter to an accomplished shooter, you really should post less and read more.

You said you adjusted cast and shot a few clay then out in the field you were having difficulty with crossers and then check and the sights were off.

Your words:
I had my new Maxus set up with what I thought was the right amount of cast and shot a few clays to verify. Out to the duck blind and getting a way ahead of left to right swingers and clipping the tails of right to lefters. I throw the gun up and look at the sites for the first time that day and sure enough the mid bead and site are out

I don't think one size fits all and fit does not matter. I never said that. Without checking back, I probably said that many shoot guns that do not shoot where they look and that good shooter often can adapt.

I never did question you shooting ability, but I did suggest that there are other reasons for not connecting well with crossers other than not having sights lined up or cast 100% perfect. After all you said you shot it on clays.
I would have been more concerned if you had missed straight aways.

In my over 50 years of shooting, if I missed the odd crosser and shot the butt off a few I would suspect something other than not having hi viz sights and a minor cast adjustment.

[Sundog57]

To answer the OP
They stay on fine. I had one on my old Baikal and shot at lots of pheasants with it.
It didn't fall off (and not many pheasants fell down)

Lots of guys at my club use hi viz beads effectively.
I started breaking clays consistently when I got rid of mine

Some guys shoot with one eye really, really well.
I don't

Try a few different things.
Mostly try spend some time shooting clay, whatever game you choose

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you are talking about putting one on a shorgun for wing shooting, the best thing that can happen is that it falls off. If you are using the bead as a sight, you aren't concentrating on the target.

This ^^^^

The high vis bead draws your eye to it and once you do that you've missed the target and don't even know it yet!

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by MK2750

High viz sites come standard, in different colors, on every high end auto loader made. Why? Because people like them.

Why, because it's a fad, just like barrel porting! It's all in the marketing!

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Why, because it's a fad, just like barrel porting! It's all in the marketing!

Yeah like vent ribs, wide ribs, raised ribs, flat ribs. People shot just as well looking down the old pipe.

And then there is cast on, cast off, drop, adjustable cheek rests/recoil pads all a passing fad.

I guess the AO community will have to decide if every manufacturer, every top end target shooter, the other 99% of shooters and the millions of hunters that enjoy vent ribs and high viz beads (the sights of a shotgun) are right or you and that other fellow.

I am going with the flow but you carry on without me. The last time I heard an argument this ridiculous was when the old guys at the deer camp thought scopes on rifles were a passing fad for us young whippersnappers that couldn't shoot straight.