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  #151  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:26 AM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
Oh boy, when we price point a species we might as give up on our future
Give it a rest with this garbage! This is not what Chuck is saying.

Maybe some of you should learn to read.
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  #152  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:36 AM
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Going along with chuck on this one.




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  #153  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:58 AM
Sledhead71 Sledhead71 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by crazy_davey View Post
Give it a rest with this garbage! This is not what Chuck is saying.

Maybe some of you should learn to read.
First off, I didn't quote Chuck, so take your own advise and learn to read.

Using the model of price point to discourage others from opportunity is not where I wish our heritage to proceed.

And if you were any where close to a sportsman, well I wouldn't need to respond to your garbage sir.
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  #154  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bpk1982 View Post
Agreed...

this thread is sad...these ideas are simply trying to price people out of hunting to reduce "my" wait times for tags. No matter what reason or rational is given, this is what it boils down to.

As has been said:
1 define and enforce residency
2 no out of province or outfitter tags
Now these ideas can make a difference while being fair to all.
I respectfully disagree, I don't think anyone wants to price someone out of a hunting opportunity. I think the concept is that if the licencing cost was a little higher people would think about what they actually wanted to hunt vs applying for one of everything because the draw is soo cheap.
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  #155  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Roughneck Country View Post
I respectfully disagree, I don't think anyone wants to price someone out of a hunting opportunity. I think the concept is that if the licencing cost was a little higher people would think about what they actually wanted to hunt vs applying for one of everything because the draw is soo cheap.
Exactly!
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  #156  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:15 AM
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I can see a need for adjustment

My suggestion

1) Draws that involve long wait times(10 + year priority for example) make these draws random. Those successfully drawn may not apply for this tag for say 5 years after successfully drawn.

2) Fix definition of resident. Alberta must be primary residence for say 6 months or a year before you are a resident hunter.

3) Remove non residents from same draw pool as residents

I don't believe big increases on fees will help anything. A small increase in the price of applying for draws would be fine if the $ goes to wildlife management. But this would do nothing to change wait time issues.


Just my opinion
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  #157  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by waterninja View Post
.. The op started this thread with the stated intention of complaining about wait times for draw results, but in the 4 points that are put foreward none has anything to do with wait time. i don't think it's such a long wait anyway. i would like to see hunting regs come out sooner in booklet form.
as for the rest of the op suggestions i find most of them objectable.
Pay more for applications? Pay way more if draw successfull? Pay even more for trophy?...I'm tired of always having to pay more.
Also don't like all the extra reporting op is suggesting at end of season. Most people have better use of their time then filling out some questionnair (though i have filled some out on a volunteer bassis).
i won't be signing my name to this letter. Sounds like making up more buercratic BS and hikeing up prices at the same time.
I'm not so worried about my draw wait times as I've been lucky enough to draw some tags. I am worried about my young kids opportunity 10 and 11 years from now. PEOPLE....GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND. Read a little bit about supply and demand and tell me if "hunting opportunities" can keep pace with burgeoning population.....something has to change. Everyone wants to ride the bus but there are a limited number of seats and some people don't want to pay. What happens to those people?....they don't ride the bus and someone else takes their spot. For those who can't afford it....they fill out an application and get their bus pass subsidized.
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  #158  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:21 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bpk1982 View Post
Agreed...

this thread is sad...these ideas are simply trying to price people out of hunting to reduce "my" wait times for tags. No matter what reason or rational is given, this is what it boils down to.

As has been said:
1 define and enforce residency
2 no out of province or outfitter tags
Now these ideas can make a difference while being fair to all.
You mean fair to you.
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  #159  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by drake View Post
I'm not so worried about my draw wait times as I've been lucky enough to draw some tags. I am worried about my young kids opportunity 10 and 11 years from now. PEOPLE....GET YOUR HEADS OUT OF THE SAND. Read a little bit about supply and demand and tell me if "hunting opportunities" can keep pace with burgeoning population.....something has to change. Everyone wants to ride the bus but there are a limited number of seats and some people don't want to pay. What happens to those people?....they don't ride the bus and someone else takes their spot. For those who can't afford it....they fill out an application and get their bus pass subsidized.
Not to worried about my own hunting draws either as I have enough points now I will eventually pull a tag for a few things, its the kids opp I'm worried about like you.
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  #160  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:39 AM
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Unfortunatly a resolution to raise application fees will never come from the AFGA board of near sighted, old, cheap, curmudgeons who speak for "all alberta sportsmen".
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  #161  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:42 AM
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Chuck, Ill give you credit for responding to people, but you're not listening... Right now you could jack up the prices, even for just for certain tags ex sheep. But when the population grows, so will the demand and once you have started that pattern it will follow for all species. Then its the king and his nobles and no one else. Not even you.

I get the frustration, but the answer is in changing "resident". personally I advocated for a 3-5 year waiting period (last time we had this argument...or was it the time before that.....) along with no outfitter/non resident tags for draw species in a particular wmu.

If you want funds for enforcement, triple the fines for every poaching offense, and make them mandatory, no judicial opinion involved.

For what it's worth, totally agree with the "if you get drawn you get charged for the tag" idea.
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  #162  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
No one and I mean no one can explain to me why forcing people to prioritize themselves is a bad thing. Come on. I'll bet that most if not everyone on this thread pays at least $700 a year for a cell phone that they sure don't need. What about cable TV? Alcohol? Oh right, now everyone is a non drinker. I can probably find three people I know tomorrow who will say they can't afford a $150 tag for a Mule Deer, but guaranteed they will spend that at the bar this weekend.

.
Excuse me. YOU YOURSELF said a $150 tag price would force you to start "staggering my draws to stay married and solvent". That's right from your very first post. You, and others, won' be able to hunt all the game you might be very willing, able, and committed to hunting and to which you have the legal right to hunt.

You still haven't answered my question about how getting my dog or aunt gertrude or uncle buck to get their hunters ed, buy a WIN and wildlife certificate, and apply for a draw helps me or gives me a leg up. So Auntie gets draw? I can't hunt on her license. Please explain.
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  #163  
Old 07-23-2014, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
You mean fair to you.
How so? Because I don't agree with using price point as a means of deterring people from applying for tags?
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  #164  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:01 AM
elkmakemecrazy elkmakemecrazy is offline
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While I do not agree with increasing tag fees I do agree with the other 3 points. I just don't think that increasing tag prices on the "trophy" tags is going to change the way people apply for these tags. If a person knows that they are not going to get drawn for lets say 7-15 years this gives people a lot longer to plan and save for that particular tag. Heck even if it is every 4 years most people would not hesitate to apply. The only way I could see this having an impact that I can see is it would push a lot more people into the 999 category until they are ready to draw, but isn't this why 999 is there in the first place.


Instead of number 2 where tag prices go up. How about this? When you apply you pay the non-refundable application fee plus the price of the tag even if you 999 the draw. If you are unsuccessful in being drawn you would be refunded the amount of the tag.


Thankfully I am at the top end of most draw priorities. I feel for anyone who is not. Waiting 62 years to shoot a "trophy" turkey is an example of what they can look forward to.
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  #165  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:04 AM
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""Ha, that's a joke! I own quite a bit of land that has bull elk and they won't give me a landowners tag for it and then you guys want to price me out of hunting on my own property, make me drive 4 hours to a general zone when I can shoot one 10 minutes from home. How about you guys quit complaining, pick a number and get in line. OR go and clean out your pockets, hire an outfitter and get your trophy. Simple! ""

Yes, If money is your fix to this, then spend it to hire an outfitter, and get your trophy , I agree, let the general people play in the draw system. If because you have deep pockets that will fix it Go pay for your trophy every year.

"I always wondered how a bunch of guys can cry so much and whine. didnt get drawn im emailing mla right now boo hoo. Why does everyone thing the world will change just cause they want it too just for them. ""

Yes I also agree with this. Get over it. Tomorrow is another day above ground! at least we can still hunt freely in Alberta.

I have hunted Elk for 5 years, shot 2 cows and 3 bulls, Bulls are 3 pt or bigger and I have no problem with that , The zone I hunt has potential for a monster, Just most years happy with a std 5x5 4x4 etc, .

Ya the mule deer draw Is a twist but now I plan for it , and can actually put more effort into when I do draw. not just another tag in my pocket.
I can hunt whitetails every other year anywhere.

Yes Antelope and Sheep are an issue, But probably hire a outfitter when I really want to go. I have shot my antelope for the wall a few years back.

Last edited by kritz; 07-23-2014 at 10:23 AM.
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  #166  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Excuse me. YOU YOURSELF said a $150 tag price would force you to start "staggering my draws to stay married and solvent". That's right from your very first post. You, and others, won' be able to hunt all the game you might be very willing, able, and committed to hunting and to which you have the legal right to hunt.

You still haven't answered my question about how getting my dog or aunt gertrude or uncle buck to get their hunters ed, buy a WIN and wildlife certificate, and apply for a draw helps me or gives me a leg up. So Auntie gets draw? I can't hunt on her license. Please explain.
People poach with tags that aren't theirs all the time. 2 win cards is another way. And if one is crafty enough there are ways to get around not having a hunter Ed course.
I don't know if raising the costs will help with these problems, but something has to be done. Does anyone else have any better ideas?
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  #167  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by elkmakemecrazy View Post
When you apply you pay the non-refundable application fee plus the price of the tag even if you 999 the draw. If you are unsuccessful in being drawn you would be refunded the amount of the tag.
.
I'm not too clear on why you would pay the price of the license if you were 999'ing it. I get the concept of applying for a draw to get the license and paying the license up front, but why would I pay for a 2014 license that I don't want and am not asking for?
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  #168  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
People need to realize that I am not complaining about the wait times as they are. Look ahead to what is coming.
Chuck I disagree with your proposal on many points. If you really have something to say tell us what is coming. I am willing to listen and consider everything that benefits our wildlife and our opportunity to hunt with an open mind and without the typical knee jerk reaction so common around here.
If I am not seeing what is coming I want to. An Ounce of prevention as they say.

If you have already stated this somewhere in this thread I missed it.
If not please make clear what you are complaining about.
Bickering about what solutions work or are not fair seems to be pointless unless we are on the same page as to what the problem is.

-You are not complaining about wait times
- you must not have a problem with 999 as you use this method
- The number of people applying for draws has nothing to do with harvest as the biologists set the harvest numbers.

I would like to say that I agree with you on most of your posts, you can be abrasive but are generally pretty even tempered with you point of view.
I am not looking for a fight , just where you are coming from.
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  #169  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Excuse me. YOU YOURSELF said a $150 tag price would force you to start "staggering my draws to stay married and solvent". That's right from your very first post. You, and others, won' be able to hunt all the game you might be very willing, able, and committed to hunting and to which you have the legal right to hunt.

You still haven't answered my question about how getting my dog or aunt gertrude or uncle buck to get their hunters ed, buy a WIN and wildlife certificate, and apply for a draw helps me or gives me a leg up. So Auntie gets draw? I can't hunt on her license. Please explain.
Oko while i agree with your prev statement, you know dang well what he means. "Cant" - legally. A lot of draw species are shot by people (poachers) that know someone who has a tag. Thanks to non exist any enforcement budgets, very few are caught.

Edit He seems to think increasing costs will deter this... It won't. Poachers will poach until it becomes uneconomical, which wont be by tag prices. $ 30000 fines and community service may help...
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Last edited by 3blade; 07-23-2014 at 10:17 AM.
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  #170  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:17 AM
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People poach with tags that aren't theirs all the time. 2 win cards is another way. And if one is crafty enough there are ways to get around not having a hunter Ed course.
I don't know if raising the costs will help with these problems, but something has to be done. Does anyone else have any better ideas?
Whoa... LOL explain to me how hunting with a legitimate tag belonging to someone else is more advantageous than taking a blank tag and just making up a number? If F&W check it and ask for ID you are busted either way. A few may do it, but charging everyone more will likely not stop the problem and is akin to using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.

Better idea?? Here's the right one: If you want to stop the problem you describe, the answer isn't to charge everyone more for a tag. That's typical lefty, gun-control sort of thinking. The answer is to quadruple the fines for actually hunting with another person's tag, confiscate trucks, impose jail time. Basically punish the guilty, not the innocent.
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  #171  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kritz View Post

Yes, If money is your fix to this, then spend it to hire an outfitter, and get your trophy , I agree, let the general people play in the draw system. If because you have deep pockets that will fix it Go pay for your trophy every year.
Probably because a resident can not use a outfitter allocation in Alberta!!
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  #172  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Whoa... LOL explain to me how hunting with a legitimate tag belonging to someone else is more advantageous than taking a blank tag and just making up a number? If F&W check it and ask for ID you are busted either way. A few may do it, but charging everyone more will likely not stop the problem and is akin to using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.

Better idea?? Here's the right one: If you want to stop the problem you describe, the answer isn't to charge everyone more for a tag. That's typical lefty, gun-control sort of thinking. The answer is to quadruple the fines for actually hunting with another person's tag, confiscate trucks, impose jail time. Basically PUNISH THE GUILTY, NOT THE INNOCENT.
Yep. Think we were typing at the same time.
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  #173  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:21 AM
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Yep. Think we were typing at the same time.
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  #174  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:22 AM
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Whoa... LOL explain to me how hunting with a legitimate tag belonging to someone else is more advantageous than taking a blank tag and just making up a number? If F&W check it and ask for ID you are busted either way. A few may do it, but charging everyone more will likely not stop the problem and is akin to using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.

Better idea?? Here's the right one: If you want to stop the problem you describe, the answer isn't to charge everyone more for a tag. That's typical lefty, gun-control sort of thinking. The answer is to quadruple the fines for actually hunting with another person's tag, confiscate trucks, impose jail time. Basically PUNISH THE GUILTY, NOT THE INNOCENT.
And unless we raise additional money some how how are we going to get the enforcement to do so? Its already determined that many are against paying anything more so how could this ever work? And i'm in agreement, big dollars could be brought in from illegal activities but we as Alberta residents wanting to improve things better be willing to help alleviate the costs of it through increased tag cost or what ever!!!
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  #175  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:26 AM
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I'm going to send a letter to the Minister of SRD and Finance in regards to wait times for draws. I have the support of several like minded individuals and will be getting their signatures on the letter. If anyone has a suggestion on any additions let me know. Here are the points I will be making or requesting a change to.

1. Increase draw application fees with a suggestion of $10. This will insure those that feel the need to apply for themselves, their dog, their wife, and their aunt Gertrude just because they can to cover all bases and see what they can draw for will at least think about it first. And maybe they will decide what species they really want to hunt. It will also encourage a bit of research into the tag being applied for.

2. Increase tag fees for special licence "trophy" animals with a suggestion to start at $150. This will also ensure a second thought on what they want to hunt as well. It will also have me personally staggering draws to stay married and solvent. This in and of itself will decrease wait times. Despite the opinion of the 999 detractors. Again, this will also encourage a bit of research into the tag being applied for.

3. Either a mandatory purchase of the tag successfully drawn for within a certain time frame or a mandatory requirement to leave a CC # at the time of application and the automatic purchase upon successful application.

4. The mandatory reporting of harvest or non harvest and use of your tag. You will have to report within 30 days of the close of your season or will automatically forfeit your ability to apply for any draw or purchase of any tag the following year. If you forget, to bad, and you likely won't do it twice.
The first two suggestions are basically trying to make hunting an elitist sport. No reason to raise prices that high.

On #3, I agree with forcing the people to buy the tags early or have them forfeited. Maybe do another mini draw in september with the forfeited tags.

#4, Don't see why it would matter if you reported your harvest or not on a lot of species. The biologists are still going to be doing there counts so they should be able to get a good idea of what was harvested and not.
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  #176  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:32 AM
elkmakemecrazy elkmakemecrazy is offline
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
I'm not too clear on why you would pay the price of the license if you were 999'ing it. I get the concept of applying for a draw to get the license and paying the license up front, but why would I pay for a 2014 license that I don't want and am not asking for?
You are not paying for the license. If you 999 you will receive a refund for the price of the tag. Think of it as a holding fee to gain your priority point.

This may make people think hard about just doing a blanket 999 of everything.
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  #177  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
Whoa... LOL explain to me how hunting with a legitimate tag belonging to someone else is more advantageous than taking a blank tag and just making up a number? If F&W check it and ask for ID you are busted either way. A few may do it, but charging everyone more will likely not stop the problem and is akin to using a sledgehammer to kill a mosquito.

Better idea?? Here's the right one: If you want to stop the problem you describe, the answer isn't to charge everyone more for a tag. That's typical lefty, gun-control sort of thinking. The answer is to quadruple the fines for actually hunting with another person's tag, confiscate trucks, impose jail time. Basically punish the guilty, not the innocent.
I totally agree quadrupling the fines and jail time and what ever else. Hopefully they make a good example out of the Edson poachers. As for hunting with someone else's tag it is pretty easy to have a bill of landing pre-made and in less they are caught in the act who's to know the difference. Maybe increasing the costs of tags could go to more enforcement in the field?
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  #178  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:40 AM
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Well Chuck, Here's my take on it. You are complaining about you having so long between getting drawn. You forget about everyone else who applies in the same WMU as yourself having to wait the same time. Your asking others to pay higher fees so you can get drawn sooner. A lot of people probably may not be able to afford the higher prices. Remember higher prices will also drive up poaching as people will still feel they have a right to healthier meat and will feel the gov't is making hunting a rich mans sport like in the UK. As for limiting the number of times you can use 999 that will mess up a lot of people who do plan. My party of 4 is a prime example of that. We plan it so that 3 use 999 and 1 applies and gets a moose draw. We rotate so that we always have 1 get a draw in our area. Yes I know in time we wil have a skipped year because more are applying each year.
But here is the real reason your plan wont work. Alberta's population is expanding every year, and our game population is remaining fairly constant as a whole. So more people hunting for the same amount of animals is going to mean longer waits between getting drawn.
What we need to do is make SRD change what designates a resident. Take the Yukon as an example, you have to live there as a resident (Yukon Drivers license) for 1 year before you can hunt as a resident. We need to implement a system like that. Instead of stopping non-resident hunters applying for draws perhaps let them apply by themselves but have a set number per species that can be drawn. Lots of people here have family that no longer live in Alberta that like to come back and hunt with their father or brother. Drop guide allocations from 10% to 8% and strictly enforce that percentage. These things I have proposed probably wont help much in the way of draw waiting times in the long term, but it may be sustainable to maintain our hunting heritage before it becomes a rich mans only sport like it seems you want to make it for your own private gain. Of course this is only my opinion.
I find it hard to believe that not many people have touched on the bolded statement above (well said to your entire post lilsundance). Increasing costs won't do anything except take us one step closer to paid hunting. The real problem is a constant population influx with stable(?) numbers of big game. It's the unfortunate truth behind it, and no amount of changes to a draw system will change the fact that there is a limited resource and an increasing amount of people wanting to exploit that resource.

I agree that we need to re-define what a resident is, or at least better manage the enforcement of the current definition of a resident. It's pretty easy to "forge" a mailing address to get a WIN card, how about a driver's license or Alberta health card as supplemental proof of residency? How about a staggered rights approach, so that a new resident can only get general tags for the first year or two, then move on to special draws?

What about limiting the amount of special draws you can win each year? There are a lot of guys on here who brag about how many special draws they got. If it were limited to one draw per year, or two even, it would force people to prioritize.

I completely agree with mandatory payments on successful draws, or forfeit the tag.

I completely agree with mandatory reporting of success on the tag, although I don't think it will reduce wait times. I support it to help out with resource management.

It sucks to have to wait 15 years for a moose tag, but there are ways around it. 999 and grab an undersubscribed tag for a northern zone. Partner on a tag with a buddy, one guy can 999 and the other can get the P1 or P2 tags in the northern zones. If guys are willing to spend more money on tags, why not spend more time to get to the zone? It sucks to have to travel 8-10 hours or more, but I would rather drive and hunt, than complain about it. I have a buddy who hunts with 2 others and they hunt moose north every year, and have gone 6 years in a row where at least one of them fills a tag. There are plenty of hunting opportunities for those who are willing to do the research and put in the time, just because you can't shoot a trophy from your back deck doesn't mean there aren't any opportunities in this province.

IBTL??
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  #179  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:41 AM
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The first two suggestions are basically trying to make hunting an elitist sport. No reason to raise prices that high.

On #3, I agree with forcing the people to buy the tags early or have them forfeited. Maybe do another mini draw in september with the forfeited tags.

#4, Don't see why it would matter if you reported your harvest or not on a lot of species. The biologists are still going to be doing there counts so they should be able to get a good idea of what was harvested and not.
people wanting to raise fees doesn't make it or them elitist, thats just a cop out for people that are cheap. The fee increases chuck proposed wouldn't even pay for the gas on a weekend of hunting.

#4 the harvest report being mandatory is common place in many juristictions and no huning the following year if not completed is the penelty as well. basically it forces hunters to give their data to F&W to better help manage the resource, Alaska has this in place as the amount of land to manage far exceeds the number of resources they have to complete the work/ surveys
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iliketrout View Post
How about a staggered rights approach, so that a new resident can only get general tags for the first year or two, then move on to special draws?


What about limiting the amount of special draws you can win each year? There are a lot of guys on here who brag about how many special draws they got. If it were limited to one draw per year, or two even, it would force people to prioritize.



I completely agree with mandatory payments on successful draws, or forfeit the tag.


I completely agree with mandatory reporting of success on the tag, although I don't think it will reduce wait times. I support it to help out with resource management.
Point 1 Yes

Point 2 No, if you actually want to draw and have the time to hunt 5 draw species more power to you, most working guys only have time to hunt 1 or 2 draw species max a year anyway

Point 3 & 4 I agree with as well
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