TC Icon 300 RUM - Page 2

eric2381 · #31 06-09-2009, 09:30 AM

When I was doing research on the Gibbs line of wildcats, I found that the long skinny cases gave minimal bolt thrust. To tell the truth, I don't understand bolt thrust completely. The way I think it is, is that the case comes back harder on the bolt or breech face, causing slight and temporary deflection of the action. I may be right wrong though.

If this is the case, wouldn't the long and straight Ultra Mag case grip the chamber walls well? Even though it's a fat bastard. Maybe the short and fat case of the WSM/SAUM wouldn't grip the case walls as well.

I'm waiting to hear back from TC, SSK, and the other webpage I posted that says they will build one.

eric2381 · #32 06-09-2009, 09:42 AM

Response from SSK:

Sorry, no. The Short mags are not compatible with the Encore--it simply won't take them for long.. However the 300 WinMag is fine and will give better performance. 26" is our max length. JD
----- Original Message -----
From: eric
To: info@sskindustries.com
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 10:47 PM
Subject: 300 RUM barrel for TC Encore

Hello, I am tossing around an idea. I'd like to get a TC Encore and get a barrel for 300 Remington Ultra Mag for it. Does SSK make one in 30" length?

Thanks for your time, Eric

eric2381 · #33 06-09-2009, 09:49 AM

Response from
http://www.inextinc.com/encorecustoms.htm

Eric,

Yes, indeed we do this. The .300 RUM is my personal favorite for the Encore PH.

Please send a dummy round to:

WCG, Inc.
480 Timberline Loop, Suite 2
Savannah, TN. 38372

I can validate the chamber and give you a price quote now but I need to know the following:

1. Type metal - Moly or Stainless
2. Blue finish or stainless matte? If blue, bring to matte finish
3. Barrel type/contour (if unsure of contour, what type, i.e., sporter, med, heavy or bull)?
4. Barrel length
5. Muzzle brake or none?

Our average price is not cheap. We start at $800 USD, but they are the best made for the Encore PH actions.

Thank you in advance,

Corey B. James
the weatherbyman@weatherbyman.net
731-926-6010

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:50 AM, eric dyck <ericdyck@msn.com> wrote:

Hello, I've been looking high and low for info on putting a barrel chambered for 300 Remington Ultra Mag on an Encore Pro Hunter frame. It mentions on your web site that you perfom this. Have you had any trouble with it? I have emails out to Thompson Center about this as well, but I haven't got a response back yet. If it all works out, I'd like to get a barrel made up. I'd like to shoot the 200gr. Nosler Accubond bullet from the 300 RUM, and I'd like to have the chamber cut so that I can load the bullet quite aways out of the case. But, I still want to be able to touch the lands with the bullet. If things work out, I can make up a dummy round and send it to you before the chamber is cut.

But, anyways, I look forward to hearing back from you. Thanks for your time, Eric

eric2381 · #34 06-09-2009, 12:39 PM

Another email back and forth with

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:40 AM, eric dyck <ericdyck@msn.com> wrote:

Hello Corey. Thanks for the response. I've also contacted SSK Industries about this. They responded back saying that it wasn't a good idea. To tell you the truth, you're the only guy I found who would put a 300 RUM barrel on an Encore. Could you explain why this is? I really am interested and I'm not just yanking your chain. Do you have any references that I could speak to?

I haven't bought a frame, yet. So concerning your questions, I would go with whatever is strongest for type of metal.

I was thinking of a 30" or even a 32" barrel in medium weight.

No muzzle brake.

Since you've made them up before, how have your results been? Do you have any chronographed loads that worked well?

Thanks again, Eric

Response:

Eric,

The .300 RUM is more than safe! For goodness sakes I have a 458 Lott and 458/300 RUM in these... I own 14 personal Encore actions all with larger than 458 Lott!

I do have references, but I respect those that wish privacy, so I do not give them out all the time. There is a guy in Georgia that I have been doing a lot of cryo work for on many of his rifles and of course barrel and action work. His name is Larry Richardson at Keystone Foods in Camila, Georgia. I will ask if he will reference me.

SSK deals with "liability" -- they are spooked when you talk anything larger than a .300 Winchester in the Encore. I know, this is why I started building them!

We have been in business since 1996. If I would not shoot it I would not chamber it. It is very safe, very reliable and makes among the best of the Encore single-shooters there are.

Let me know. You may also call my phone at 731-926-6010 as I am off today and I can answer any questions you may have further.

Thank you,

Corey James

Traps · #35 06-09-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ask the same question a million times and you'll likely get a half a million different answers. I saw the photos of the barrel that blew up and who knows what caused it. The .416 is lots of proof that the hole can be made that big and the .375 is lots of proof that the pressure is fine. Who knows what caused one after market barrel to fail.........guessing there are a million opinions on that as well. It's my understanding that it was an amatuer gunsmith that bored the chamber out. I've never heard of a T/C barrel blowing up......

The 416 on TC's website says heavy wall. So you might be able to get the 300 RUM in heavy wall but its not the same as the off the shelf barrels. The combination of chamber size, outer diameter, material yield strength, and pressure maximum of the cartridge dictate the ability for the barrel to withstand it or not. Its not using the hole for the 416 and the pressure of the 375. Wall thickness, O.D., material (in this case most likely one type of gun barrel material), and pressure are on a case by case basis and evaluated as such.

Eric unless this guy is a gun engineer I would be very leary of them. You should ask yourself why SSK brings out the liability card with anything bigger than a 300 win mag with that pressure rating.

#36 06-09-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traps

The 416 on TC's website says heavy wall. So you might be able to get the 300 RUM in heavy wall but its not the same as the off the shelf barrels. The combination of chamber size, outer diameter, material yield strength, and pressure maximum of the cartridge dictate the ability for the barrel to withstand it or not. Its not using the hole for the 416 and the pressure of the 375. Wall thickness, O.D., material (in this case most likely one type of gun barrel material), and pressure are on a case by case basis and evaluated as such.

Eric unless this guy is a gun engineer I would be very leary of them. You should ask yourself why SSK brings out the liability card with anything bigger than a 300 win mag with that pressure rating.

I can't find any reference to where it says heavy wall on the T/C site in regards to the .416. The .416 for the Encore comes in a heavy barrel but all 26" Encore barrels are heavy barrels. The heavy refers to the fact that they are not tapered.

There is no distinction between heavy and regular barrels with the ProHunter as they are all fluted 28" barrels. My .416 ProHunter barrel looks identical to my .22-250 barrel just with a larger hole. Am I missing something?

eric2381 · #37 06-09-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traps

Eric unless this guy is a gun engineer I would be very leary of them. You should ask yourself why SSK brings out the liability card with anything bigger than a 300 win mag with that pressure rating.

That is why I'm questioning him on it. Why would a big company say no, while this guy says yes. He swears up and down that everything is fine though. I am going to talk to some references and research this guy further before I lay any cash down.

Guys with Encores, how well do they shoot? Can a guy expect real good accuracy out of them, if a real good barrel is used?

#38 06-09-2009, 03:38 PM

They are generally regarded as accurate rifles.

Huntnut · #39 06-09-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eric2381

Guys with Encores, how well do they shoot? Can a guy expect real good accuracy out of them, if a real good barrel is used?

I get 3/4" groups with my 7mm shooting 140 partitions.

eric2381 · #40 06-09-2009, 05:32 PM

http://s604.photobucket.com/albums/t...ttachment1.jpg

http://s604.photobucket.com/albums/t...tachment12.jpg

These are some pics I've found of a TC Encore PH that was chambered in 338 RUM.

#41 06-09-2009, 06:15 PM

That had to shake the shooting bench!

Tundra Monkey · #42 06-09-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

That had to shake the shooting bench!

Uhhhhhh.....ya still want one of those?????????

I'd definately talk to that guy in Georgia.....maybe some of his kin folk to.....just to see if he's normal

tm

Traps · #43 06-09-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I can't find any reference to where it says heavy wall on the T/C site in regards to the .416. The .416 for the Encore comes in a heavy barrel but all 26" Encore barrels are heavy barrels. The heavy refers to the fact that they are not tapered.

There is no distinction between heavy and regular barrels with the ProHunter as they are all fluted 28" barrels. My .416 ProHunter barrel looks identical to my .22-250 barrel just with a larger hole. Am I missing something?

I am just going off of the link below, it may be referencing like you say the heavy barrel:
http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_encore_rifle.php
If you have both the barrels in front of you then you would know best as I don't have the 416 rigby.

By no means am I a gun engineer or claim to be one. Anyone that wants to use this method or reference it needs to get an experienced gun maker/ gun engineer to verify it/reject it. This is more for illustration purposes using hoop stress formula for thin walled vessels where the formula is S=Pr/t where S is stress in the gun barrel, P is chamber pressure, r is radius of inner wall, t is wall thickness. Barrels are designed for a safety factor of two or more.

If you run the numbers on a 300 RUM its as follows:

Chamber diameter = 0.550" , radius is half of that at 0.275"
Wall thickness = barrel radius minus chamber radius = 0.5" - 0.275" = 0.225"
S= 65,000 lbs/in^2 * 0.275 in / 0.225 in = 79,444 psi
Safety factor = 140,000 psi / 79,444 psi = 1.76
Safety factor is not equal to or greater than 2. Design is not ok.

If you run the numbers on a 416 Rigby its as follows:
Chamber diameter = 0.589" , radius is half of that at 0.2945"
Wall thickness = barrel radius minus chamber radius = 0.5" - 0.2945" = 0.2055"
S= 47,000 lbs/in^2 * 0.2945 in / 0.2055 in = 67,355 psi
Safety factor = 140,000 psi / 67,355 psi = 2.08
Safety factor is greater than 2. Design is ok.

Using his quote:

"The .300 RUM is more than safe! For goodness sakes I have a 458 Lott and 458/300 RUM in these... I own 14 personal Encore actions all with larger than 458 Lott!" I ran the 458 Lott using Corey's excited exclamation points:

If you run the numbers on a 458 Lott its as follows:
Chamber diameter = 0.513" , radius is half of that at 0.256"
Wall thickness = barrel radius minus chamber radius = 0.5" - 0.256" = 0.244"
S= 62,000 lbs/in^2 * 0.256 in / 0.244 in = 65,049 psi
Safety factor = 140,000 psi / 65,049 psi = 2.15
Safety factor is greater than 2. Design is ok.

*These are not design formulas to follow in making other barrels and by no means makes anyone qualified including myself to do so.*

My point is you can't compare the 458 Lott to the 300 RUM. Ask this guy to get a certified gun engineer to sign off and certify the barrel before you commit. There was a guy on this forum who got a barrel south of the border that blew up in his face, not sure if it was the barrel or the design. The last thing I want to see is an accident from some clown that thinks he can design and qualify a barrel out of his garage when a more reputable barrel maker (SSK and more importantly TC) does not. Just use your best judgement please.

eric2381 · #44 06-09-2009, 07:41 PM

The Encore was a thought. I had high hopes. But after researching things closer and talking to a few reputable people, I've tossed the idea.

I will look for a Remington M700 to play with instead.

#45 06-10-2009, 09:29 AM

Quote:

I am just going off of the link below, it may be referencing like you say the heavy barrel:
http://www.tcarms.com/customShop/chart_encore_rifle.php
If you have both the barrels in front of you then you would know best as I don't have the 416 rigby.

Ya, that just refers to the taper. The .416 is built on the same barrrel as the .17HMR with a ProHunter. There's lots of metal there for cartridges bigger than a .300RUM. There may be other factors come into play but chamber size isn't one of them. It's a common misconception but a misconception none the less.

eric2381 · #46 06-10-2009, 02:10 PM

Response from TC:

Dear Eric,

We don’t make any ultra mag or short mag barrels. It would be too much pressure for the frame..the head thrust would be to great. Have a nice day. Dianne, customer service

From: eric dyck [mailto:ericdyck@msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:22 AM
To: tca_customerservice@tcarms.com
Subject: 300 Remington Ultra mag barrel

Hello, I have a question please. I would like to get an Encore Pro Hunter and a barrel chambered in 300 Remington Ultra Magnum. I see a few aftermarket companies that produce and chamber barrels in this chambering. But not many.

What is Thompson Centers opinion of chambering a barrel for 300 RUM and using the Encore frame?

Thanks for your time, I appreciate your help and I look forward to hearing from you.

Eric

It may be possible, but with so many people saying it's not a good idea, including the firearm manufacturer and designer, I'm not going to chance my dollars and safety on it.

I think it could've been an awesome thing if it would've worked.....

Traps · #47 06-10-2009, 10:40 PM

"There's lots of metal there for cartridges bigger than a .300 RUM"

It is possible but the pressure has to come down to compensate.

Chamber size does come into play:
1) it turns into bolt thrust, so for a given pressure the bigger the area the higher the bolt thrust.

2) it comes into play on determining the size and pressure allowable for a given barrel. There are two formulas, one for thin walls (the one I used above for hoop stress) and the other for thick walls (called Lame's). We have already gone over the variables on this previously.

"There may be other factors come into play but chamber size isn't one of them. It's a common misconception but a misconception none the less."

I would have to say your way out of your league on this statement.

"There may be other factors come into play."

Would you like to shed some light on these other factors? Sorry man, not to be a smart ***** but unless you have some sort of idea about mechanics of materials and ASME 31.3 in your background its just an opinion.

#48 06-11-2009, 12:08 AM

Traps, there is no doubt there are some bolt trust issues with fat cartridges but are they dangerous? Without knowing the pressure ratings of the barrel and frame, it's all speculation on both our parts. T/C won't do it and I've had it explained by several of their engineers as to why and it's nevere been because they thought a gun would fail. They have some huge safety margins built in for good reason. Would I buy an aftermarket barrel like a .300 RUM? Not a chance in the world but not because of the pressure but because it was made by someone other than T/C. Possibly someone that isn't as concerned about safety as them.

Huntnut · #49 06-11-2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Possibly someone that isn't as concerned about safety as them.

Good point

I was thinking about getting a "hot rod" barrel for my T/C but after reading this thread I think I'ss stay with my 7mm mag.

Traps · #50 06-11-2009, 01:14 PM

Sheephunter, fair enough on not knowing and speculation. I think we both agree on the main point in hand, aftermarket barrels from anyone other than reputable makers should be avoided.

noneck180 · #51 06-13-2009, 11:45 PM

We had this same discussion some time ago, the thread is T/C Pro-hunter I think you will find out some info there. don't know how to post the link

gibbs · #52 06-14-2009, 09:27 AM

Just posting this for fun, but apparantly this looks the T/C pistol that was chambered for .600 NE. It is a hilarious video, and no way to tell if the gun survived or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0