Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

As it seems Pudel's original post got drug in another direction, I thought I'd post his info regarding sheep again in a thread only dedicated to changes to sheep hunting regulations. Let's please keep mule deer out of this and keep it productive....this is the future of sheep hunting we are looking at.

Here's what pudel posted for the proposed changes:

Sounds like there are 3 proposals for sheep:

(South = South of the Bow, Central = Bow to Brazeau, North = North of Brazeau)

1. Put entire province on a draw. Doing the math with all the info available, this would allow approx 1150 permits. We now sell about 2200 sheep licenses per year, so it works out to an average of hunting every second year, although obviously some areas would be longer and some less depending on accessability and populations. This would allow management WMU by WMU

2. The north would stay as a general tag with 4/5 curl restrictions, the central would go on a draw with 4/5 curl restrictions (this area would allow about 300 permits). The south would stay as a general license but with full curl restrictions.

3. The entire province would stay as a general lisense but north would be 4/5 curl and both central and south would be full curl.

Other options available:
Wait times after harvesting a sheep:
1 yr after first sheep
3 yrs after 2nd sheep
5 yrs after 3rd sheep
7 yrs after 4th sheep

or

Wait time depending on age of sheep:
>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait

- Increasing sheep license fees ( to reduce number of hunters)

- Designated registration offices to keep measuring fair (this could increase travel of successful harvesters)


From what I understand these are what SRD brought to the AGMAG.

Here's a few questions that popped into my head after reading the above and I'll be posing these to the powers that be. Hopefully everyone else will ask their own questions as well. There may well be some logical explainations.

I'd suggest sending your questions to:

Jim Allen james.allen@gov.ab.ca

Honourable Frank Oberle peace.river@assembly.ab.ca

Rob Corrigan Rob.Corrigan@gov.ab.ca

Ron Bjorge ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

Anyhow, here are my thoughts.


1) What is the actual problem they are trying to address is? Obviously, or at least I think, they want to reduce ram harvest in the south and central portions of the province. Why? Are there not enough rams? Is there a problem with age structure? Is it to create a better quality trophy hunt?

2) Have they actually looked at the percentage of mature rams in areas like K-Country that reach or at least have the potential to reach the legal definition of full curl? Not doubt some will but I see this significantly reducing harvest compared to a draw unless they are only planning on issuing a couple tags per WMU.

3) I see they anticipate 2200 draw applicants but we already have 11,829 applicants for the five sheep draws we currently have and we've seen the increase in applicants that putting any species on draw creates. Am I missing something here? The 2200 number does not also take into account hunters that were ineligible to purchase a sheep licence in 2011 due to being successful in 2010. Realistically, it would seem to me that we'd end up with 15,000-20,000 applicants, increasing wait times to 15-20 years. Something just doesn't add up or perhaps they plan on handling this in another way which leads me to the next question.

4) Will these new WMUs be covered under a new draw code or amagamated with the current sheep draw codes as discussed last year?

5) If amalgamated, what will happen to current priority?

6) It looks as though resident opportunity will be cut in a minimum of half if a draw goes ahead. Will outfitters see a similar decrease in tags?

7) I see one of the options was to increase licence fees to basically price sheep out of the reach of many Alberta hunters. Is this for real?

8) Are the sheep population results are going to be released as promised by SRD?

9) What is the rationale behind further punishing sheep hunters for being successful.

10) Are other methods of sheep management being considered? While hunter management is a simple task, are issues like habitat, industrial use and predation also being looked at potential solutions to whatever the problem is?

[Okotokian]

"Wait time depending on age of sheep:
>10 yrs 1 yr wait
8 - 10 yrs 3 yr wait
6 - 8 yrs 5 yr wait
<6 yrs 7 yr wait"

Observations of a dummy who has hunted sheep but never harvested one (that would be me):

How on earth would that ever be enforced short of having to bring every sheep harvested into "The official government age estimator"?

Come to think of it, how does the enforcement of any "wait time after harvest" actually work? Guy gets a sheep, tags it, takes it home. Never got stopped by F&W so there is no record he ever actually got anything. Yes, I get it that a taxidermist could keep records, but you aren't forced to go to one, and from the Lesnar case we know how reliable some of them are (not).

Wait time after issuance of tag seems the easiest to enforce. Sort of sucks if you weren't successful thoug to have to wait.

All rams must be registered and plugged Oko so there is always a record. There is currently a one-year waiting period after killing a ram. This is one of the options being suggested that would penalize hunters for shooting younger legal rams. I don't think tracking the waiting periods would be that tough considering it's all done on computer. If you were unsuccessful, you wouldn't have to wait...only if you harvested a ram as is the case now.

The big problem I see with this is that you would lose a lot of potential sheep hunters. Most first-timers are willing to kill the first ram they see and if it's a young one, taking them out of sheep hunting for seven years is likely to take them out forever. Also, I don't see this having any impact on harvest. It would just be different guys shooting rams. Maybe that's their logic though...I don't know.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

This is one of the options being suggested that would penalize hunters for shooting younger legal rams.

It seems to me (or so I hear) that it's often difficult enough in many situations to judge whether a ram is legal or not. Is it reasonable to expect a hunter to be able to judge the age of a legal ram from 300 or 400 yards? If it's extremely difficult then it seems to me that a penalty for shooting a younger ram amounts to not much more than luck of the draw and won't accomplish anything in reality.

Awaiting your experienced knowledgable reply, Sheep LOL

Originally Posted by Okotokian

It seems to me (or so I hear) that it's often difficult enough in many situations to judge whether a ram is legal or not. Is it reasonable to expect a hunter to be able to judge the age of a legal ram from 300 or 400 yards? If it's extremely difficult then it seems to me that a penalty for shooting a younger ram amounts to not much more than luck of the draw and won't accomplish anything in reality.

Awaiting your experienced knowledgable reply, Sheep LOL

Accurately field aging bighorns is pretty well impossible but telling a young ram from an old one is certainly possible.

[pottymouth]

Unfortunately, CO's have a hard time coming up with the same age as one another! Just like some co's are harder on judging than others. I'm sure after awhile there will prefered office to go to!

We had 4 officers give 3 different ages on mambas ram! The 5th admitted she wasn't sure, and asked what we thought....lol

I agree potty and I think SRD realizes this too because they do talk about setting up central registration offices....I suspect with people trained in aging.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I agree potty and I think SRD realizes this too because they do talk about setting up central registration offices....I suspect with people trained in aging.

I'm sorry, but I'm still lost...If the guidelines are such that you need to be an expert to assess the animal exactly, how can that be of much assistance to the fellow pulling the trigger? It seems a bit like handing out speeding tickets based on rate of speed when the cars have no speedometers. Actually, it's exactly like the new .05 law. No one actually knows how many drinks it takes them to hit .05. Only the guy with the breathalyzer knows, so the only totally safe course of action is to not drink (or shoot) at all.

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm sorry, but I'm still lost...If the guidelines are such that you need to be an expert to assess the animal exactly, how can that be of much assistance to the fellow pulling the trigger? It seems a bit like handing out speeding tickets based on rate of speed when the cars have no speedometers. Actually, it's exactly like the new .05 law. No one actually knows how many drinks it takes them to hit .05. Only the guy with the breathalyzer knows, so the only totally safe course of action is to not drink (or shoot) at all.

You aren't lost at all. It is exactly like the .05 law. You wouldn't actually be breaking any law shooting a legal ram but your sheep licence would be taken away for a considerable period of time depending on the age of the ram, which is difficult if not impossible to determine in the field and even open to arguement in the hands of professionals. Basically you are punished for doing something legal....just like the .05 law....lol

I guess the thing to remember is that it's only one of a long list of options.

[CNR]

If your happy with the ram...shoot! Its just you'll have to wait extra time before you can shoot another one if you like shooting youngsters. Nobody's going to jail! That can only help build the trophy quality.

[Neil Waugh]

It's pretty apparent there's a pent up demand for more sheep tags and the present habitat appears to be pretty well maxed.
One long term solution is to exponentially increase the RMS range to their historic habitats.
The southern and central Alberta river valleys. Just like Montana did in the Missouri River Breaks.
What's clearly needed is more harvest. Not a bunch of fine-tuning and inventing new ways to carve up the current surplus which doesn't appear to create one extra ram.

[blackmamba]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Unfortunately, CO's have a hard time coming up with the same age as one another! Just like some co's are harder on judging than others. I'm sure after awhile there will prefered office to go to!

We had 4 officers give 3 different ages on mambas ram! The 5th admitted she wasn't sure, and asked what we thought....lol

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by blackmamba

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

Haha....ya what a joke...

I would think they'd start when the regulation was changed.

[Nait Hadya]

Alberta Class Proceedings Act.

Originally Posted by blackmamba

not to mention the officer asked as to why my second tag was not applied to the hind leg of my sheep ????

So if these proposed wait times are to begin as per age of the animal , do these wait times include the rams one has already harvested , or does only apply to the guys submitting rams under the new regulations??

It would have to start with new regulation being enacted same as the wait times based on how many rams you have killed. We'd all start at zero. From what I hear, the new wait times based on number of rams killed will come into effect in 2012.

[PLOTT]

Not sure we need any major changes but a draw would be the worst thing that could happen. The wait periods are a lesser evil as most successful sheep hunters are content if they harvest a good ram. The high predator and late winter sheep hunters have to be addressed before they can restict us.

[Whelen1]

So is this something that will be happening for the 2012season?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Whelen1

So is this something that will be happening for the 2012season?

No!!

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by Whelen1

So is this something that will be happening for the 2012season?

This is the same response we all have gotten. Now I want to see all the data and assumptions surrounding SRDs claims.

Dear 'Depopulator':

Thank you for your email of January 3, 2012 regarding trophy sheep hunting. I am pleased to provide the following information.

Sustainable Resource Development staff recently initiated a discussion with key stakeholders on issues regarding trophy sheep management, including whether regulation changes are needed. This discussion is at the preliminary stage. No decisions have been made and no major changes are expected for this year’s hunting season.

The department’s Wildlife Management Branch has completed an analysis of the registration data of harvested trophy rams over the last 35 years and sheep population surveys. The analysis was completed because some stakeholders had raised concerns about the quality and quantity of trophy bighorn sheep available in some parts of the province. Bighorn sheep populations have been relatively stable over that time period. However, in most of the province, the horn size in trophy sheep has been decreasing, while the age of harvested rams has been increasing. Rams now need to be older to reach trophy size.

The Sheep Management Plan for Alberta has a strategy that states at least five per cent of the winter population of sheep should be legal rams. This objective is important to maintain trophy quality, as well as good population dynamics. In the last 10 years, most of the province has not achieved this ratio. The low number of trophy rams observed in population surveys and the declining number of rams harvested annually indicates an over-harvest of trophy rams. This trend is more obvious in some areas than others.

Department staff are raising this matter and possible solutions through the established consultation process within the community of stakeholders represented on the Alberta Game Management Advisory Group (AGMAG). The results of the department’s sheep population surveys have been distributed to AGMAG representatives and we plan to post them on the department’s website at www.srd.alberta.ca in the near future. I can assure you that any changes to trophy sheep regulations would occur only after a wide-ranging discussion that includes the issues and suggestions you raise.

We appreciate your input and will consider it as part of the consultation process.

Sincerely,

Frank Oberle
Minister

cc: James Allen, Head, Game and Priority Species, SRD

[Rocky7]

Thanks, depopulator. The old "stakeholders" and "department staff" rumba. Whatever that really means......

Anyway, it looks like SRD "staff" (who? how many? why?) started the "discussion". That's something, at least.

The claim is that older rams seem to have shorter horns lately.

The foundation for this concern appears to be "registration data" and "sheep population surveys" over the last 35 years. Somehow, analysis of that data led some "staff" to conclude that older sheep are tending to have shorter horns.

I wonder if formal requests for information are needed. They say not here http://environment.alberta.ca/01405.html but the answer you got was kinda vague, don't you think?

[Rocky7]

I came across a couple of articles that seem to shed some light on what's been going on generally with some critics of hunting and/or trophy hunting and, in particular, bighorn hunting in Alberta.

I hope it will be useful to those of you who obviously care enough about hunting and care enough about bighorns to require truth rather than propaganda and science rather than ideology:

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2009/...k-and-scrawny/

http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2009/...rophy-hunting/

It appears the Alberta bighorn "science" is, or at least was, skewed.

I hope these are helpful to your efforts.

[SLH]

!!!!!! Val Geist !!!!!!!!

If anyone can answer all the questions put forth in that letter from Dr. Geist then we can get on to meaningful discussions about the sheep in this province. My sense is that there will be resistance to what he has put forward in that letter as it is obvious it has been ignored up till now and it would not serve anyone that has an agenda of reducing hunting activity on the herd.

I for one wish that we will have in the future someone to remotely replace Dr. Geist.

God Bless.


Thanks for the posts Rocky

Everyone with a concern for the issues of sheep better read that letter in the second link.

[ram crazy]

[QUOTE=Rocky7;1268626]
Anyway, it looks like SRD "staff" (who? how many? why?) started the "discussion". That's something, at least.

The claim is that older rams seem to have shorter horns lately.


That is kinda hard to prove as they say older Rams are being kill more so now than in the past, and are they taking brooming off into consideration when they make this claim as I'm sure there are rams that broom off some every year!!!