Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[walking buffalo]

Access issues will be implemented soon.

These new restriction are part of the Public Access Managemet Plan. This is NOT a reaction to sheep, but for Grizzly Bears.

Unfortunately the Gov. is keeping this news VERY quiet while final details are decided on.


Restricting access to the back country will put greater pressure on the easily accessed sheep ranges, once again, putting more pressure on these animals. Shifting the problem, not solving it.

^^^ IF THERE IS A PROBLEM!

[southunter]

Walking buffalo said

PHP Code:

Unfortunately Full Curl by the highway won't work as Treaty harvest will get those rams left by Licenced hunters.

20+ Known Treaty Rams so far this year. 


Spurly states there have been 5 rams killed by treaties.

Where are you guys getting these numbers and why are they so different. Any truth to it or internet rumour?

[Justin.C]

What are they going to do WB???? That is more bull****. why is it we keep getting all restrictions. Why have we lost hunting land as hunting is a recreation and that is what provincial parks are for is recreation. Why did we loose our grizzly tags??? Cause someone fudged the paperwork so we all lost out. Now they want to screw us on our sheep and accessibility to the back contry. Why and how do they have all of these rites to screw us?????? I am sending a real good email as this just ****ed me off more than normal. All our government and SRD has done is screw us for way to long and destroyed our animal herds and then said no more for you and shut it all down or something that is obsered.

[flare]

After reading this thread, I have concluded that many here are unsure why changes need to be made at all. Yet some would rather eliminate the means by which others choose to hunt, such as eliminate access to the back country by use of horses or atv, (just because they don't hunt this way), in hopes that no new rules will be put in place that would effect their own hunting. Got to look out for #1. Don't worry, there will be more and more restrictions coming, and one day they might even restrict your foot access.

Some of you think that wolves and cougars are talking a toll on sheep numbers, I agree with you. Go read about the Yellowstone to Yukon initiative (covers all of Alberta's sheep habitat), they neither endorse nor condone the hunting of carnivores (grizzly, black bears, wolves, cougars). If they push their agenda the carnivore population can go unchecked. Do you think sheep population will increase with that type of policy?

Backpack vs horseback vs atv
Rifle vs bow
.270 vs .300wsm
You get the idea.
United we stand, divided we fall.

Before you jump on me about being pro atv. Yes I own one and have used it elk hunting. But i have also hunted elk on foot, walking many miles and packing bulls out on my back. Also drawn for 410 sheep this year (ya I am also a bowhunter), and put in a lot of miles, camped in a little backpack tent on some pretty cold nights. No I didn't get one, came close, just not close enough.

Just hoping that wasn't my last sheep hunt.

Remember we are all in this together, and we are a small percentage of the population.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by southunter

Walking buffalo said

PHP Code:

Unfortunately Full Curl by the highway won't work as Treaty harvest will get those rams left by Licenced hunters.

20+ Known Treaty Rams so far this year. 


Spurly states there have been 5 rams killed by treaties.

Where are you guys getting these numbers and why are they so different. Any truth to it or internet rumour?

Ask this guy.


Greg Hale
Area Wildlife Biologist
Fish and Wildlife Sustainable Resource Development
Pincher Creek, AB


greg.hale@gov.ab.ca

Yeah, we went down to watch the rams on the wintering grounds down south a few weeks ago, my brother was back in there the other day and most of the rams are gone. Lack of snow means they're easy to get at, main road means they're not hard to find. Have to wonder if subsistance harvest will shut down resident sheep hunting in the future. Last winter i found a few boned out carcasses within 50 yards of the one road. Frustrating..

[muleskinner]

Seems like the way to solve the problem for a lot of people on here would be to limit access to the mountains for any other group but themselves.Who cares about the horse guys or the quad guys as long as we aren't affected!Going down this road just weakens our position as sportsmen.The only way to have any effect on SRD decisions is to have a united voice.If full curl regulations or draw seasons are the only way to ensure a healthy ram population then I would be for it.That said show me the science!As sheep hunters our first concern should be a healthy sheep population not whether we have unlimited hunting opportunities.

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by muleskinner

Seems like the way to solve the problem for a lot of people on here would be to limit access to the mountains for any other group but themselves.Who cares about the horse guys or the quad guys as long as we aren't affected!Going down this road just weakens our position as sportsmen.The only way to have any effect on SRD decisions is to have a united voice.If full curl regulations or draw seasons are the only way to ensure a healthy ram population then I would be for it.That said show me the science!As sheep hunters our first concern should be a healthy sheep population not whether we have unlimited hunting opportunities.

Muleskinner, you make some very good points. Just remember, we are about the only consumers of the population that the managers are willing to deal with. So far the science is showing us that hunters are not the problem because the harvest is going down, not up. One of the head biologists asked me at a sheep management meeting one day why I was so opposed to the draw, he stated it has worked and been effective for all other species. My reply was that maybe for some it works but in the case of the mountain units from 416 and north the elk were put on draw, elk were not managed at all but we were, with less permits each year. Now we have virtually no elk left out there. Did the draw work, NO, but we were sidelined as the managers had a tool to keep taking permits away while forgetting the dwindling population.

What we need to do is voice together and ask the hard questions, IF THERE IS LESS RAMS, PLEASE FIND OUT WHY AND DEAL WITH IT.

We are going to go around with this and continue to lose numbers as we fight this little battle about managing ourselves. Kyle Knopffs study pretty much showed us that cougars living in sheep country can have a devastating effect on populations.

If we agree to go on draw or full curl, the problem will not be solves because the managers will be able to spend their time working out hunter numbers and IGNORING the real reasons.

[muleskinner]

I agree that we need to find out why the ram population is dropping below the acceptable number,but does that mean we should just keep hunting the falling population at the same rate.The number of rams harvested by hunters adds up with any other reasons for falling numbers.Just because we may not be the main cause of the problem should we just keep going the way we are till there is none?

[Innoka]

Originally Posted by spurly

I guess the argument is between rights, and abuse of rights.Like anything else, a few bad apples spoil the whole bunch.

I don't disagree with you and that goes for ANY hunter.

If there is a problem with hunters taking too many easy sheep close to a road or highway, I think SRD could designate Road Corridor Wildlife Sanctuarys which could deal with the issue if that is indeed a problem. ALL hunters would be subject to the restrictions of the RCWS.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by Innoka

I don't disagree with you and that goes for ANY hunter.

If there is a problem with hunters taking too many easy sheep close to a road or highway, I think SRD could designate Road Corridor Wildlife Sanctuarys which could deal with the issue if that is indeed a problem. ALL hunters would be subject to the restrictions of the RCWS.

Would natives be subject to these restrictions ?

[Innoka]

Originally Posted by depopulator

Would natives be subject to these restrictions ?

Yup... there was just a recent case in the Alberta courts. It goes to conservation first.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by Innoka

...If there is a problem with hunters taking too many easy sheep close to a road or highway, I think SRD could designate Road Corridor Wildlife Sanctuarys which could deal with the issue if that is indeed a problem. ALL hunters would be subject to the restrictions of the RCWS.

Originally Posted by depopulator

Would natives be subject to these restrictions ?

Originally Posted by Innoka

Yup... there was just a recent case in the Alberta courts. It goes to conservation first.

552 posts and this is the first that makes sense to me, fudged data or not.

[ishootbambi]

i think everyone could agree on that. i would really have to wonder what the harvest would be in the winter months if those hunters had to get off the road and hunt rather than smacking freebies from the pavement?

[flare]

Just finished reading an article in Canada's Outdoor Sportsman magazine, Jan/Feb 2012 issue, titled, Return of the prairie Rams's, written by Neil Waugh.

It makes note of the great success Montana has had re-introducing big horns into the Missouri Breaks region, and how we could transplant sheep from the Cadomin area to Dinosaur, Writing on Stone and Cypress Hills provincial parks.

Also it stated that back in 1993 Alberta's game managers produced the provinces bighorn strategy, which basically said that "bighorns occupy habitat formerly unexploited by man""however that has changed quite rapidly since European settlement". Increased incursion into sheep lambing areas and winter ranges due to atv's, heli-skiing,mountain biking and cross country skiing. Hunting demand also boomed - even with only seven per cent success rate, and that sustainable harvest was maxed out. And that was nearly 20 years ago.

Biologist and wildlife managers proposed ideas how to address supply and demand issues.

Number one was the most obvious, draconian and politically-unacceptable.
"Reduce the number of sheep hunters"

Another unacceptable idea was to "accept reduced hunter success rate" but at 7%, how low can you go?

The article states that the most enlightened and progressive proposal, of course, was to "increase sheep populations through habitat enhancement and development techniques."

The article also says that "confirmation by SRD officials that the '93 sheep strategy still remains the road map document for the management of sheep in the province."

This is just my summary of a 3 page article. Perhaps it gives some insight into SRD's current proposals, dating back to 1993.

[walking buffalo]

Flare,




Here is the Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep in Alberta, 1993-present.

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/lao/librar...993/135915.pdf


A review may remind Decision makers where habitat and predator management fit into the plan.


This 2008 Bighorn Status Report is worth reviewing in conjunction with the Sheep Management Plan.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...%20alberta.pdf

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Flare,




Here is the Management Plan for Bighorn Sheep in Alberta, 1993-present.

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/lao/librar...993/135915.pdf


A review may remind Decision makers where habitat and predator management fit into the plan.


This 2008 Bighorn Status Report is worth reviewing in conjunction with the Sheep Management Plan.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...%20alberta.pdf

Walking Buffalo, could you put up the link to the Wolf Managment Plan. I just recently dug it out and read it. It also includes wolf control for both elk and cariboo populations in danger. My understanding is that there is support for predator management for cariboo but no support for endangered elk populations as we have in the Rockies today.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by muleskinner

I agree that we need to find out why the ram population is dropping below the acceptable number,but does that mean we should just keep hunting the falling population at the same rate.The number of rams harvested by hunters adds up with any other reasons for falling numbers.Just because we may not be the main cause of the problem should we just keep going the way we are till there is none?

Who said the ram population is dropping? and they are still killing roughly the same number of sheep every year. And where are they getting that horn size is decreasing over the years, this would be pretty hard to determine as pre 1984 there were no sheep registrations. I know guys that shot rams in the 70's and these sheep all averaged 6.5 to 7.5 yrs. in age and scored anywhere from the 150's to 170's, and today with the registration there are still a lot of rams being killed in that same range. So once again where is the problem!!!!

[flare]

walking buffalo, thanks for the link. Have read in 20 pages, gives some interesting info. Will read the rest later.

I'm a bit confused about the age thing. In a letter I received from SRD, I was told

We have done a complete analsis of registration data from 1975 to 2010 and in most of the province there is a decline in basal circumference and length of horns. At the same time there is a decline in average age of rams shot. Basically the faster growing rams are being harvested out of the population.

I've read a few other responses people have received from SRD where they actually say that while basal circumference and horn length is decreasing, average age of rams killed is increasing. The two responses definitely seem to contradict each other. Anyone else received a responses about the age of rams being killed?

[SLH]

I would ask the person that sent you that email to confirm he meant to say a decline in age.

[Frans]

Apart from the "don't worry, we're the government" type of answer I posted earlier, I have yet to recieve any reply.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Frans

Apart from the "don't worry, we're the government" type of answer I posted earlier, I have yet to recieve any reply.

Gotta love thier generic speech. They could pen in at the top of the first page richardson ground squirells, rainbow trout, earth worms or grizzlys and roll it out. Its the same B.S. generic public speech and run around no matter the issue LOL. Funny stuff, and not even worth replying to. Just take what ya can while its here to be had boys, shes goin in the toilet no matter what. The people at the helm are too smart to listen to anyone else LOL.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Walking Buffalo, could you put up the link to the Wolf Managment Plan. I just recently dug it out and read it. It also includes wolf control for both elk and cariboo populations in danger. My understanding is that there is support for predator management for cariboo but no support for endangered elk populations as we have in the Rockies today.

A lot has changed in cougar and wolf populations since these Plans were introduced.


Management Plan for Cougars
http://www.assembly.ab.ca/lao/librar...1992/70042.pdf


A recent thesis on Ab Cougars, worth noting the expanded range, population and density, and incidents of cats who are Bighorn killing specialists. This may be the Kyle Knopf paper mentioned earlier by Smoke.

Cougar Predation in a Multi-Prey System in West-Central Alberta
http://s3.amazonaws.com/zanran_stora...s/98189165.pdf



Management Plan for Wolves
http://www.assembly.ab.ca/lao/librar...1991/70040.pdf

[ram crazy]

TJ did you ask them where they're getting there data from between 1974 to 1984 with there being no registration in that time frame or is it just a guess on they're part.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'm a bit confused about the age thing. In a letter I received from SRD, I was told


I've read a few other responses people have received from SRD where they actually say that while basal circumference and horn length is decreasing, average age of rams killed is increasing. The two responses definitely seem to contradict each other. Anyone else received a responses about the age of rams being killed?

This is what I have recieved....

in most of the province, the horn size in trophy sheep has been decreasing and the age of harvested rams is getting older

According to numerous research papers on Bighorn Sheep horn growth, the herds are likely less vigorous than in past years. This sounds like an environmental issue, not a hunter selection issue.



I hope there will be some serious investigation by AGMAG groups, especially WSFA regarding the data and supporting research.

FNAWS members should look into this.

The implications regarding these potential changes to Alberta Bighorn sheep hunting could spread across the world for ALL species of hunted animals, if concerns of Hunter influenced genetic selection is given regulatory weight.

Originally Posted by SLH

I would ask the person that sent you that email to confirm he meant to say a decline in age.

Ya, I'm going to have to do that for sure because he seemed quite adamant that it was declining and even talked about the success they've had in 400 with the full curl regulation and increasing the age and how there was concern that the faster growing rams were the ones being killed in other areas. Very strange.

It seems the info that I was supplied with was incorrect regarding age. SRD is working on some graphs and charts right now that will be made public shortly. It sounds like they have received a lot of correspondence from concerned sheep hunters. Good job everyone!

[209x50]

So if average age is increasing and basil diameter is decreasing what is the solution? Going to full curl only makes the rams even older.

Originally Posted by 209x50

So if average age is increasing and basil diameter is decreasing what is the solution? Going to full curl only makes the rams even older.

Yes and I don't understand how it will address the issue of genetics they seem hung up on. The same, fast growing rams that they are concerned about will still be the first to get killed. It seems counterproductive to their concern about basal circumference and length....in the long term....if you buy into Coultman anyhow. Sure the numbers will go up on paper just because we've changed the definition of legal but we haven't changed which rams are getting killed....which they seem to be concerned about. Full curl should increase the number of 4/5 rams on winter range in most WMUs.....though

I'm so confused now. I thought I had it figured out what the problem was but now, with this new info, I don't have a clue again.