Agressive cops on sylvan

[waterhawk]

I don't understand why there would be any reluctance to allow a Conservation Officer to search your boat unless you have something to hide. All AO members abide by the law, right. Why are we wasting time trying to figure out what rights COs have to search. What I see here is some guys would like to defy authority by playing lawyer. Go ahead and see how it works out for you.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

I don't understand why there would be any reluctance to allow a Conservation Officer to search your boat unless you have something to hide. All AO members abide by the law, right. Why are we wasting time trying to figure out what rights COs have to search. What I see here is some guys would like to defy authority by playing lawyer. Go ahead and see how it works out for you.

Because it won't stop there.... Keep giving an inch, keep taking a mile.... If you don't stand up for your own rights, after awhile you won't have any. That's how it all starts. People died fighting so you could have rights. Don't throw that all away by spitting on their grave. It's the principle of it.

[nicecurr]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Because it won't stop there.... Keep giving an inch, keep taking a mile.... If you don't stand up for your own rights, after awhile you won't have any. That's how it all starts. People died fighting so you could have rights. Don't throw that all away by spitting on their grave. It's the principle of it.

Well said....and in this day and age absolutely necessary.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

I don't understand why there would be any reluctance to allow a Conservation Officer to search your boat unless you have something to hide. All AO members abide by the law, right. Why are we wasting time trying to figure out what rights COs have to search. What I see here is some guys would like to defy authority by playing lawyer. Go ahead and see how it works out for you.

"I have nothing to hide so of course I will wear my gold star just like the nice officials have asked me to."

Man you have to be a real babe in the woods to believe this kind of crap. Trusting the police who are already intentionally ignoring the laws that govern us is a road to disaster. Thin edge of the wedge. It is bad enough the U.S. is giving up their hard fought and in many cases Constitutional rights left right and centre in the name of "National Security", there is no reason for us to fall for the same propaganda. Lots of my immediate family gave their lives so this crap doesn't happen in Canada. The least you can do is stand up and defend yourself where there is no danger of getting shot for doing it.

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Because it won't stop there.... Keep giving an inch, keep taking a mile.... If you don't stand up for your own rights, after awhile you won't have any. That's how it all starts. People died fighting so you could have rights. Don't throw that all away by spitting on their grave. It's the principle of it.

So maybe you can summarize for me what are your rights regarding search and seizure in a watercraft on a freshwater lake in Alberta. The posts on this thread would indicate there is a lot of confusion on the matter. My grandfather fought in WW1 and father in WW2. I know they would have been shocked if they were told that one of the reasons they were fighting is so guys, who did not even know for sure there rights were being infringed, could refuse to allow a Conservation Officer to look in their cooler. If you want to get all indignant about your legal rights being infringed, you should at least know what the law is.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

I don't understand why there would be any reluctance to allow a Conservation Officer to search your boat unless you have something to hide. All AO members abide by the law, right. Why are we wasting time trying to figure out what rights COs have to search. What I see here is some guys would like to defy authority by playing lawyer. Go ahead and see how it works out for you.

Exactly, be nice, allow the search, show your licence etc, thank them for looking after our resources from the scum bag poachers and move on. Been approached a few times, had a friendly conversation, shuck hands and went about our days, sounds easy to me unless you got something to hide...

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

So maybe you can summarize for me what are your rights regarding search and seizure in a watercraft on a freshwater lake in Alberta. The posts on this thread would indicate there is a lot of confusion on the matter. My grandfather fought in WW1 and father in WW2. I know they would have been shocked if they were told that one of the reasons they were fighting is so guys, who did not even know for sure there rights were being infringed, could refuse to allow a Conservation Officer to look in their cooler. If you want to get all indignant about your legal rights being infringed, you should at least know what the law is.

I'll use an extreme example for you. Like I said, this is an extreme example......
The year is 2025. Cops are going door to door looking for weed in people's homes. After going through every nook and cranny in your home, ( your wife's sexy panty drawer, your medical cabinet with your 5 year supply of Viagra, ) they then leave your house in shambles and head to your neighbours....your left to clean up the mess and feeling very violated... Keep rolling over for these little infringements of your rights though, if that's what you want in the future.(less rights)....that's how you do it. And by the way, ILLEGAL search and seizure is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! So quit assisting criminals to break our laws!!!!!

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I'll use an extreme example for you. Like I said, this is an extreme example......
The year is 2025. Cops are going door to door looking for weed in people's homes. After going through every nook and cranny in your home, ( your wife's sexy panty drawer, your medical cabinet with your 5 year supply of Viagra, ) they then leave your house in shambles and head to your neighbours....your left to clean up the mess and feeling very violated... Keep rolling over for these little infringements of your rights though, if that's what you want in the future.(less rights)....that's how you do it. And by the way, ILLEGAL search and seizure is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! So quit assisting criminals to break our laws!!!!!

Talking Moose: I enjoy your posts and don't want to get in an argument with you. I understand and appreciate the need to have restraints on how Police Officers and Conservation Officers can deal with citizens. It is fundamental to a free society. The thing is if you don't know what your rights are, you can't insist on them being respected. Lots of guys here are all up in arms on maybe the fish cops are overstepping their legal bounds in how they are enforcing the law. These guys feel that it is extremely important to hold the authorities to the letter of the law regarding those rights. Those guys are ,however, to lazy to figure out exactly what those rights are. I don't feel the need to figure out the rights of Conservation Officers to enforce boat safety laws and angling laws. I will answer their questions and allow them to inspect my boat. I want them out there and am not going to hold them up by playing lawyer.

[Astrocyte]

I'll use an extreme example for you. Like I said, this is an extreme example......
The year is 2025. Cops are going door to door looking for weed in people's homes. After going through every nook and cranny in your home, ( your wife's sexy panty drawer, your medical cabinet with your 5 year supply of Viagra, ) they then leave your house in shambles and head to your neighbours....your left to clean up the mess and feeling very violated... Keep rolling over for these little infringements of your rights though, if that's what you want in the future.(less rights)....that's how you do it. And by the way, ILLEGAL search and seizure is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! So quit assisting criminals to break our laws!!!!!

Why use an extreme example and not a realistic one? An officer is looking for drunks, liars, and poachers. They are not there plotting their next move to push for an Orwelian society. They are checking a cooler and storage bins for alcohol and to make sure you know the rules of owning a boat. Owning a boat for fishing or otherwise is a privilege not a right. There are rules to owning and operating that boat, if one cannot prove they are competent enough to adhere to those rules then tickets and further action should be warranted.

I would be assisting criminals if I did not allow an officer to search and do their job. If they do not do their job the criminals do get away.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Astrocyte

Why use an extreme example and not a realistic one? An officer is looking for drunks, liars, and poachers. They are not there plotting their next move to push for an Orwelian society. They are checking a cooler and storage bins for alcohol and to make sure you know the rules of owning a boat. Owning a boat for fishing or otherwise is a privilege not a right. There are rules to owning and operating that boat, if one cannot prove they are competent enough to adhere to those rules then tickets and further action should be warranted.

I would be assisting criminals if I did not allow an officer to search and do their job. If they do not do their job the criminals do get away.

You want an actual example of what your type of thinking leads to, "High River RCMP Seize Guns while entering locked houses with no warrants". Tell me again the RCMP don't have an agenda of their own. I agree, people need to learn what their rights are in order to best protect them, but at a minimum they don't need to provide easy consent when asked.

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by Jet

Precisely. RCMP broke into houses, riffled through those poor peoples property, damaged property and stole their possessions illegally.
What happens when you do that? And what happens when they do that?
Do you think the RCMP that did this will end up in jail?
And talk about knocking people when they're already down. Heck they
weren't even allowed access to their own homes either whilst they were stealing.

Section 8 of our charter says we have a right against unreasonable search and seizure. However there are plenty of laws which serve to erode that right routinely, including hunting / fishing laws and boat inspections.

Then look at C-51. And if that ain't bad enough you may be alarmed to find out that the province / government can seize any property belonging to you,
i.e. house, boat, vehicle etc., just because they have a suspicion a crime has been committed. You don't need to be charged, you don't have an opportunity to defend yourself or go to court and you don't have to be guilty of any crime,
or have any right to obtain your property back even if it can be proved you
didn't commit any crime. How has this happened? Because we have allowed it to.

Now if every cop and politician was honest, unbiased then no problem. However as we know, this is not the case. People have their own agendas.

The more we walk around with blinkers on and drink beer whilst saying "who cares about this small item of our personal freedoms being eroded", the more we help create a police state. Stand up for your privacy and freedom.

It is perfectly possible to catch poachers, have safe boating, not be detained moving from A to B with a boat and not lose our privacy and freedom at the same time. We only have to look to history to see why in the past excessive interference from the state is a bad idea.

You have passion for this issue. I seems it is shared by other members. My question is does that passion translate into actually doing something difficult like figuring out what your rights are. Show me that you have done that and I will accept that you really care about your rights. Lots of guys here seem to think the best was to protect their rights is to remain ignorant as to what they are and simply argue and be rude to Conservation Officers.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by waterhawk

You have passion for this issue. I seems it is shared by other members. My question is does that passion translate into actually doing something difficult like figuring out what your rights are. Show me that you have done that and I will accept that you really care about your rights. Lots of guys here seem to think the best was to protect their rights is to remain ignorant as to what they are and simply argue and be rude to Conservation Officers.

Aint that the truth...

[THERICARDO]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Really,,,,how often do you see a boat roaring around a lake with their music cranked right up when there is no booze involved, almost never, cuz sober most people will respect the ability for other people to enjoy the lake too. And a log won't hurt anything but the boat leg. Glad to see you condone drunk driving,, that's making the same conclusions of you that you made of me. Hope your kid isn't water skiing or swimming in a lake with people like that driving a boat. Cuz that stuff happens all the time. Hate if you want

I do it all the time sunshine and guess what?? Havent had a drink in 6 years, so yeah you an real winner

[waterhawk]

Originally Posted by Jet

Sure it does, I have and a do. I carry a card in the boat to remind me, has a copy of the relevant legislation on (to show them if necessary), and when I've been checked, I'm polite (if they are) and give them what they want up to what they are permitted by the law.

Never had any issues past that, although they have attempted to over-reach on most occasions by trying to construct the conversation in a way to trick me into allowing them to do a search of boat or vehicle.

Only ever had one situation where they didn't attempt to overreach and just asked to check for barbless only.

I do this because my first encounter with F&W at Policemans flats was over-aggressive on their part, so I decided to educate myself. The guy blocked my vehicle (i.e. detained me), asked to see my license (which I showed him) then implied that not having next years license was an infraction, so I then showed him next years license which I happened to have got 1 week in advance of the start of the season. Then he searched my gear. Of course, he found nothing wrong, so then proceeded to give me free information "There's heron's in that tree opposite" and left. Left me wondering what powers these guys have and
what they're allowed to do.

That's essentially some of their tactics, attempt to trick you by bending the rules as far as they can and being your best friend and then give you some useless tidbit after the event to give you warm fuzzes of them doing a good job after having underhandedly violated your rights and being your best friend when you weren't doing anything illegal. They had no reasonable suspicion they just did it anyway, i.e. they're finding a way to skirt around the law.

Not all are bad, I have encountered some that do a good job, i.e. don't dragnet
but follow up on poachers and do the hard work to catch em. But often when you encounter them at boat launches etc., it's for easy pickins, after all
most of us aren't dumb enough to poach.

You can do the same as me and be prepared too.

These guys have a job, and work for us. Assist, but don't roll over backwards for LEOs when they are overreaching, you're not facilitating their job, they are looking to book you, you;re doing us all a disservice down the line if you roll over by helping to further erode our rights and freedoms. There are so many stories on this forum of this overreach.

When they detain you to measure every fish you have and taking their time, when measuring the smallest to check it's the correct size would suffice, then it's plainly gone too far. It's meant to send a message that they are in control of you and can do what they wish, and ultimately it doesn't assist catching poachers. IMHO.

I don't have any problem with LEOs during their jobs, I just have an issue with over-reach, and I'm passionate about that for sure.

Now this is what I have been talking about. You, sir, have my respect.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

I'll use an extreme example for you. Like I said, this is an extreme example......
The year is 2025. Cops are going door to door looking for weed in people's homes. After going through every nook and cranny in your home, ( your wife's sexy panty drawer, your medical cabinet with your 5 year supply of Viagra, ) they then leave your house in shambles and head to your neighbours....your left to clean up the mess and feeling very violated... Keep rolling over for these little infringements of your rights though, if that's what you want in the future.(less rights)....that's how you do it. And by the way, ILLEGAL search and seizure is ILLEGAL!!!!!!!! So quit assisting criminals to break our laws!!!!!

Talking moose you need a nap or a fishing trip. Just don't forget the the sexy panties and viagra

[Jon 2011]

RCMP have the same powers as fw officers which allows them to inspect your equipment, vehicle boat etc, so them boarding your boat was within their rights