The premium bullet "craze"

Dick284 · #1 12-12-2008, 01:58 PM

I noticed even Barnes is now making a monolithic expanding bullet for the .303British.

Wow.

I have to wonder how any game got killed in byegone years with old fashoined cup/core bullets.

I'm an experimenter too, lots of different bullets grace my reloading bench. But what I have found for the most part is that the more complicated a bullet is to manufacture the more prone it is to be tempermental and choosy as far as getting them to shoot well in numerous rifles with minimal tinkering.

I am also a big advocate of using a stout enough bullet for expected impact velocities, that is where I see true controlled expansion bullets shining.

But for the sub 3000fps, or even sub 2800fps calibers, I have to somehow question if all of this is nothing more than a marketing a better mouse trap sort of initiative.

I shot Sierra SPBT's in 165gr. out of my 30'06 and killed a pile of game with them without recovering a single bullet. My daughter shot 2 deer with Speer 130gr. bullets out of her 7mm-08, both deer hit the deck where they stood.
I've ran Sierra 150's out of 303's and never recovered a single bullet either.

How much is too much, and is all the expense and excesive tinkering necessary when some of the older more convetional lead tipped slugs do as good if not better than poly carb tips, driving bands, and lord knows what else may come out next week.

sdeviation · #2 12-12-2008, 02:19 PM

Amen....
but i just designed this one just incase ur bullet arrives at 10fps and u need sum cutting power....

BlueNorther · #3 12-12-2008, 02:33 PM

I've been reloading and shooting Speer bullets for over 25 years and can see no reason to change them for some new whizbang fantabulous bullet.I've loaded them for 5 different calibers and am working up a load for my newest one,a 338 win mag.

Predator · #4 12-12-2008, 02:46 PM

This will make you happy then http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=792 Even Hornady is jumping on the bandwagon. They are saying min. 2000fps on impact though. I guess no ultra long shots unless I get my 375 remchester uber ultra magnum sighted in.

Pathfinder76 · #5 12-12-2008, 04:02 PM

It's important to consider a possible ban on lead bullets comming down the pipe when seeing these monotholic offerings.

Buckhead · #6 12-12-2008, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It's important to consider a possible ban on lead bullets comming down the pipe when seeing these monotholic offerings.

I concur and there are a couple possible reasons:

1.Lead bullets have been banned in Ventura County, California and some aother areas due to the possible ingestion by Condors feeding on animal carcasses. I can see more bans of this nature coming, if the envirogeeks have their way.

2.Banning lead bullets is an easy way for politicians to gain more control over gun owners. Gun owners will no longer be able to cast their own bullets cheaply and easily from lead. This will lead to higher prices for bullets and ammo. Higher prices means some people will leave the sport - (a form of gun control).

catnthehat · #7 12-12-2008, 05:36 PM

"Premium bullet craze"??!!

what premium bullet craze?

Cat

Dick284 · #8 12-12-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

It's important to consider a possible ban on lead bullets comming down the pipe when seeing these monotholic offerings.

And until such time.......................................

Pathfinder76 · #9 12-12-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284

And until such time.......................................

Stand around with you thumb up your but or build market share. Take your pick.

Dick284 · #10 12-12-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Stand around with you thumb up your but or build market share. Take your pick.

Who's standing around with a thumb stuffed anywhere.

Re read my original post I have many types of different bullets on my loading bench. Some just happen to be lead free, while others are cup/core, and even some have a funny partition in them.

Your taking this thread in the wrong vein.
Roll with the tide man, there are more to bullets than just Barnes.

Pathfinder76 · #11 12-12-2008, 06:41 PM

I was speaking of the companies producing these monolithic bullets.

Oh, and I've used more than Barnes.

Partition

Ballistic Tip

Partition

Ballistic Tip

Partition

Ballistic Tip

You get the idea..........

Pathfinder76 · #12 12-12-2008, 06:44 PM

Dick,

In fact I had two friends and a family member that all had Barnes TSX's fail to open on game this year.

Here is one of them.

Dick284 · #13 12-12-2008, 06:46 PM

Nice pics.

Now back to the thread at hand.

Did you find the less complicated in design bullets easier to get to work for you??

Or were they as temepermantal as the fancier ones??

Dick284 · #14 12-12-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Dick,

In fact I had two friends and a family member that all had Barnes TSX's fail to open on game this year.

Here is one of them.

Things do and can go wrong.
I dunno what makes things like that happen, but anything manufactured can do, not as designed, that is a given.
How to determine when that would or will happen is the tough part.

FWIW: I've never seen a plain Jane bullet fail to expand. I however have seen them really expand (violently) when pushed beyond their design parameters.

Hence why there are more than a few boxes of bullets on my bench.

catnthehat · #15 12-12-2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284

And until such time.......................................

Untill such time as I absolutely HAVE to, I will keep shooting stuff out of the green box, yellow box, or red box.
I don't buy that crap of " the monolithic crap is the best and only design to use or you are wasting your money" BS!
cup and core bullets shoot straight , and kill things dead. period.
i could give a rat's patooti whether a bullet goes end for end, breaks up, holds together and goes through, or does an about face, as long as the animal goes down.
I've seen as many boo boos with those co-called premiums as i have the "cheap factory crap"

There, i feel much better now......

Cat

Pathfinder76 · #16 12-12-2008, 07:07 PM

I've had ballistic tips come completely unglued with interesting results, and I've had Barnes bullets bring death a little later than I think they should. It's tough to know what to use at times.

Barnes have been finicky to get to shoot at times and I've had them do funny things to accuracy from lot to lot. Partitions have been difficult for me to get to shoot as well, but ballistic tips seem to always shoot. I've seen the bonded non partition style bullets flatten like pancakes and fail to get inside the rib cage, and the interbond has caused me hair loss working up loads I'm certain. I've used the fail safe and it shot well, speer hot cores the same. I've used the A-Frame and lately have been considering giving them a whirl again.

Finding the right bullet is a tough one. Especially considering the wide range of game animals a guy can hunt here in a span of just a few days.

However, I can't recall ever losing a single game animal no matter what the bullet.

Dick284 · #17 12-12-2008, 07:13 PM

I've never seen this flattening out you speak of, but I'm sure it can happen.

The usuall messy ones are too close too frangable and contact with too much bone, and the end result a lot of collateral damage.

Coincedentally the rapid and violent breakups often produced the most spectacular and sudden deaths.

Also of note is, I've found that if rifle wont shoot a Sierra bullet very well, your likely going to have a very tough time finding other bullets that will.

sbtennex · #18 12-12-2008, 07:44 PM

For 25 years all I had and used were 130 Sierra boattails in my .270. They worked, period. I remember one bull moose that at 300 yards or so ran after the shot in the ribs and stopped leaning up against a huge poplar some 75 yards away, the bullet having ricocheted upwards after breaking a rib going in. It took out his liver and effectively killed him right there. As far as premium bullets go, I think there are more classes than two. There are also a few that really are that little bit better and even a premium price still makes them hands down the cheapest part of any hunt. As Dick mentioned and I've bitched about openly before, to get a Barnes all copper bullet to behave can be a real time and dollar consuming affair, but if you get it it's quite impressive. There are far more variables than simply brewing up the right load with all copper bullets. All copper aside, bullets like the all-time best, IMO, the Nosler Partition, the Swift A-Frame, Scirrocos, Interbonds, and any of similar design that make it very difficult for jacket and core to separate are probably the most reliable nowadays. Focus has been on creating and marketing so-called super bullets and I'm starting to think the old conventionals are paying the price in manufacturing consistencies. Core
Lokt? Probably killed more stuff than all the rest put together. But like the mentality of some decades ago (and still here and there now) that the .30-30 is the world's greatest critter killer of all time, the Core-Lokt continues to do it's job but THERE ARE FAR BETTER CHOICES out there. All great improvements aside, if I had to choose only one bullet there's no doubt it would be the Nosler Partition, still the one they're all compared to - just like the ought-six when it comes to calibers. Modern rifles are so much more accurate, scopes and triggers and all the rest it takes to shoot with terrific accuracy are far more easily available, unlike when the .30-30 or .250-3000 were king that to not use a good bullet makes little sense. But hey, if it works don't fix it.....sb

Grizzly Adams · #19 12-12-2008, 07:53 PM

I've always figured the most important thing is to hit the target well. Bullet performance is secondary to that and I,ve never found fault with the usual garden varieties. But then, if there is a market, someone will fill it. I don't see any critters above, that wouldn't have been killed just as quickly with what I use.
Grizz

berjerkin · #20 12-12-2008, 10:34 PM

i like the pictures with the gun pointed toward yourself..... safety first!

catnthehat · #21 12-12-2008, 10:36 PM

faxct is, the parameters are getting larger, velocities are getting pushed by faster cartridges, people are tending to shoot longer .
Bullet designs are getting somewhat more complicated, but the mousetrap ain't getting made any better!

I have heard the "bullet is the cheapest part of the hunt" thing before and don't buy it.
A good sling can be just as cheap as a box of A frames, Noslers , Accubonds or whatever( of which I have shot but never bought for myself).
Seirras may be half the price, but that is not the main reason i use them.
I tend not to put a price on a hunt.....
Cat

wayne · #22 12-13-2008, 12:53 AM

Dick, I only shoot factory bullets so don't have experimental knowledge with handloading, but "too much is too much" in new bullet design is just enough in Winchester's XP3 IMHO. After trying "Fail Safe" bullets and discovering how they failed, like Chuck's photo of the failed Barnes bullet, (although I killed 2 moose and a deer with them, and they were very accurate) I shot a 180 grain 300 WSM XP3 bullet through a 15" poplar tree at 20 yards. It passed through that tree and lodged 3 inches into another tree. It may have lost 2 petals but the expanded waistline of the bullet happened at probably 3000 fps. After killing a moose at 70 yards with the XP3 I know the "premium" XP3 does not kill any better than partitions/soft points/accubonds etc, but it is a damn good bullet that lives up to its marketting efforts. If it weren't for marketting you probably wouldn't be using 100 grain TSX's in your 25.06.

Whiskey Wish · #23 12-13-2008, 02:31 AM

My two cents worth.
The whole point of handloading is dealing with fractions. That's the "fun" of it. Pushing limits, expanding horizons, discovering improvements.
What does all this mean to the regular "meat-getter" or the "horny horn lover" ?? Buffalo chips !
Fractions added together long enough add up to whole numbers which mean real change but the simple fact remains Daniel Boone was killing game with a front stuffer over 300 years ago and he had no idea how fast his lead was travelling.
But that still doesn't mean there wasn't any value in working the venerable old 30-06 enough to produce the .308, .270, 25-06, .243, .250-3000, need I go on ?
Long story short I think you gentlemen are comparing apples and oranges.

Keep your powder dry,
Dave.

eric2381 · #24 12-13-2008, 07:00 AM

I've found that shooting a heavy for caliber Hornady Interlock will get the job done on game very well. Soft nosed and predictable expansion, with a long body to penetrate. 175gr. Hornady IL out of my 7mm rem mag has done the trick many times.
The plus is the Hornady bullets are cheaper to buy than a box of Noslers, so a person can afford to shoot his gun through the year. Then when game is in the sights, put it in the rib cage.

I have seen Barnes fail to expand as well.

Pathfinder76 · #25 12-13-2008, 09:00 AM

I spend too much time and too much money to be doing the Jackie Busman wait till he's broadside routine. I want a bullet that will break a hip on the way to his boiler room and not all bullets will do that.

Pathfinder76 · #26 12-13-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne

Dick, I only shoot factory bullets so don't have experimental knowledge with handloading, but "too much is too much" in new bullet design is just enough in Winchester's XP3 IMHO. After trying "Fail Safe" bullets and discovering how they failed, like Chuck's photo of the failed Barnes bullet, (although I killed 2 moose and a deer with them, and they were very accurate) I shot a 180 grain 300 WSM XP3 bullet through a 15" poplar tree at 20 yards. It passed through that tree and lodged 3 inches into another tree. It may have lost 2 petals but the expanded waistline of the bullet happened at probably 3000 fps. After killing a moose at 70 yards with the XP3 I know the "premium" XP3 does not kill any better than partitions/soft points/accubonds etc, but it is a damn good bullet that lives up to its marketting efforts. If it weren't for marketting you probably wouldn't be using 100 grain TSX's in your 25.06.

I wish the XP3 was available as a component.

eric2381 · #27 12-13-2008, 12:47 PM

You talk about a conventional bullets inability to penetrate. Two years ago I had a cow moose tag. I had one day to hunt all season due to work, but we managed to find an old dry cow to shoot. She was trotting away from me at an angle when I took the shot. I was trying to shoot for the offside shoulder, but the shot was too far back, due to me not leading it enough. The bullet smashed the top of her rear hip, broke the spine in the middle of her, broke the top of the shoulder and the bullet was found under the hide. That was a 175gr. Hornady IL out of my 7mm rem mag. The moose dropped at the shot, and I put one into her forehead for good measure. This was not a "premium", high priced bullet, but I feel it did a wonderful job, on a poor shot.

I stand by using heavy for caliber bullets. And the Hornady IL, in my opinion, the best of the cheaper bullets. Eric

Pathfinder76 · #28 12-13-2008, 01:02 PM

That was excellent performance. I'm just playing the odds.

PoppaW · #29 12-13-2008, 07:37 PM

I used to shoot fail safe and would try XP3 if I shot factory. Seems odd that with only one expanded bullet people are quick to jump on the bandwagon. The X-bullet has killed thousands of animals and a few failures has these same people condemning this bullet.
I've seen the ballistic tip penetrate 4" into moose without hitting bone. I've seen partitions come apart and loose the back lead too. I've seen interlocks unlock and turn inside out. But so far I have not seen a barnes fail and keep using them to this day as my go to bullet. I have found them to be the easiest to get to shoot straight in my guns. This does not mean I wont shoot the others. I had a 338 RUM that preferred NP's. Some of my friends joke that is why i sold it. I like having a variety to choose from and have many boxes on my bench. If you want to limit yourself to hornady or cor lokts cuz they are cheap then too bad for you because the technology is out their and we should be using it.
Good luck

eric2381 · #30 12-13-2008, 08:22 PM

When you experienced the Nosler Partition coming undone, what was the rifle chambered in? And bullet weight? I'm not trying to be ingnorant, but trying to learn from other peoples experience.

I've saw a few Core lokts come apart as well (165gr. from a 300 Win. Mag.) But, I've seen 180gr. IL from the same rifle do very well. A conventional bullet is made to come apart to a degree. A longer, higher sectional density bullet will allow for this, yet still penetrate. A bullet coming apart to a degree will produce other wound channels as well.

I believe matching bullet velocity with bullet selection is important. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a 140gr. bullet in a 7mm-08, but I don't like shooting that same bullet in a 7mm rem mag.

I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, I'm stating MY opinion. Everybody has their own. Merry Christmas to everybody, Eric