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  #211  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:20 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I don't disagree. I also think they can push the "fear" of covid to a degree they are unable to with smoking. Nobody is scared of smokers, but the are scared of a virus, even though the end result is not a lot different. Not a lot unlike covid, I can "social distance" from smokers without the government telling me I must wear a gas mask.
What is truly disgusting, is that babies and children are forced to ride in vehicles while their parents smoke. They have no ability to distance themselves.
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  #212  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:21 AM
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I’ll play Devil’s advocate on this one.

I think second hand smoke has been deemed a bad deal. I believe that is why hockey coaches are not allowed to smoke in the dressing room like when I was a kid, or in the car on the way to games, or bars , restaurants, basically every public place and many private ones too. That’s why laws were created, acknowledging it!s I’ll effects and pretty much everyone is okay with that.

If I want to social distance from a smoker it’s pretty easy to do so, it’s visible, unlike this.

For the record, I have not wore a mask, but won’t resist if and when I’m told to. There’s much bigger fish to fry in the world than resisting compliance on what some deem public safety regarding a contagious disease.

Last edited by Rvsask; 07-31-2020 at 11:31 AM.
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  #213  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:21 AM
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For information purposes, this has been taken right off of the WHO's own website...

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-s...detail/tobacco



So if 1.2 million non-smokers a year are dying from other peoples smoking, why is this not a worldwide crisis? This isn't a comment on the fact covid is causing lots of deaths, but it is more about pointing out the hypocrisy. Why is one group of lives so socially unacceptable to gamble with while the other is ignored?
Many of the third world and poorer countries don’t have the smoking laws in Canada. In Canada the second hand damage would be far far less.
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  #214  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:23 AM
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What is truly disgusting, is that babies and children are forced to ride in vehicles while their parents smoke. They have no ability to distance themselves.
You’ve witnessed this in the last 10 years?
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  #215  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:23 AM
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Many of the third world and poorer countries don’t have the smoking laws in Canada. In Canada the second hand damage would be far far less.
So poor lives matter less? Are we going to NIMBY this too? Again, I am not commenting on covid. I am commenting on hypocrisy. Everyone is always cool when it is someone else's issue.
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  #216  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:24 AM
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was

You’ve witnessed this in the last 10 years?
Yes... All the time in traffic. All the time in homes. I won't say as much as in the 70's, but it is still prevalent.
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  #217  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:25 AM
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So poor lives matter less? Are we going to NIMBY this too? Again, I am not commenting on covid. I am commenting on hypocrisy. Everyone is always cool when it is someone else's issue.
Just pointing out a fact.
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  #218  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:25 AM
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Yes... All the time in traffic. All the time in homes. I won't say as much as in the 70's, but it is still prevalent.
Did you report them? It’s illegal and disgusting.
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  #219  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:28 AM
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Just pointing out a fact.
I know man... I am not taking jibes at you. Just making the point that we all choose where to look and what to ignore every day. We all accept risk based on our own situations. Covid is no different. I would in fact be curious as to how many people who call non-mask wearers who still socially distance properly irresponsible, are actually smokers that endanger other people themselves thoughtlessly?
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  #220  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:32 AM
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Nobody is scared of smokers, but the are scared of a virus, even though the end result is not a lot different. Not a lot unlike covid, I can "social distance" from smokers without the government telling me I must wear a gas mask.
I don't think it works to conflate a highly-contagious virus with an addictive substance like tobacco.

I have an absolute choice as to whether or not to smoke but no such choice is available for Covid-19. None of the ill or dead chose to contract the virus, while every smoker decides to light up every time.

A smoker is immediately identifiable, but asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid-19 carriers are not. It is much easier to avoid the smoker. That is why we should all wear masks indoors in public places.
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  #221  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:33 AM
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You’re right about that, hypocrisy is everywhere, we’re all guilty.
Every. One . Of. Us.
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  #222  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:33 AM
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Did you report them? It’s illegal and disgusting.
If I reported everything I see of people doing wrong while driving based on the law, I would be spending 3/4's of my day being a fink. Besides, distracted driving is against the law too so reaching for my phone or a pen and paper to right down a license number would be breaking the law too!
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  #223  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:34 AM
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I don't think it works to conflate a highly-contagious virus with an addictive substance like tobacco.

I have an absolute choice as to whether or not to smoke but no such choice is available for Covid-19. None of the ill or dead chose to contract the virus, while every smoker decides to light up every time.

A smoker is immediately identifiable, but asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic Covid-19 carriers are not. It is much easier to avoid the smoker. That is why we should all wear masks indoors in public places.
I am fully capable of staying 6 feet away in Costco or the grocery store from you too, whether you are a carrier or not. If you come into my space then that is on you.

Now getting on an airplane? At a baseball game? In a movie theatre? Sure I get it, but come on man... That isn't what we are talking about here.
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  #224  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:44 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Talking moose View Post
was

You’ve witnessed this in the last 10 years?
Yes, both smoking and vaping. And people still sit at the kitchen table with their children and smoke. As Tirebob mentioned, I am not about to start taking pictures of every violation I see while I am driving, as I would be committing a violation to do so.
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  #225  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:44 AM
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I am fully capable of staying 6 feet away in Costco or the grocery store from you too, whether you are a carrier or not. If you come into my space then that is on you.

Now getting on an airplane? At a baseball game? In a movie theatre? Sure I get it, but come on man... That isn't what we are talking about here.
I guess I don't know what we are talking about then. Seriously. I thought we were discussing why the research shows we need to mandate wearing masks indoors in public places. Again, sincerely, explain what the topic is.

I have been unable to stay 2 m away from other people in any of the handful of stores I have shopped in since March. No matter how I try, there is always some inconsiderate individual who comes breezing up from behind and brushes past me. Even dancing from and ducking those who approach in my field of vision has not been easy, particularly with my age and arthritis.
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  #226  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:48 AM
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I guess I don't know what we are talking about then. Seriously. I thought we were discussing why the research shows we need to mandate wearing masks indoors in public places. Again, sincerely, explain what the topic is.

I have been unable to stay 2 m away from other people in any of the handful of stores I have shopped in since March. No matter how I try, there is always some inconsiderate individual who comes breezing up from behind and brushes past me. Even dancing from and ducking those who approach in my field of vision has not been easy, particularly with my age and arthritis.
Might be my size, the big beard and tattoo's that keep people six feet away from me... I can't deny it. Hey... Wait a minute... Maybe we are onto something!
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  #227  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:52 AM
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I think you should consider the definitions of "cynical" and "argue". Nonetheless, this time I will argue.

I asked you to provide recent, primary sources. None of your links are such sources. However, they do lead to some.

Your first link is a secondary source but it does lead to CDC. This link is out of date. Currently "CDC recommends that people wear masks in public settings . . .". (Before you can point it out, I do realize that this is not a primary source.)

The article you cited leads to an Australian study dating to April which, I think, should be considered in the light of more recent research of infectivity of young people.

The article leads to a third study which was done in 2015 and deals with protection in a health care environment. If you have any, please cite primary sources dealing with mask wear by the general public.

Your second link is, again, a secondary source which links to the original. In the original the authors "recommend the use of masks combined with other measures". Your own reference recommends masks. I have to conclude that you did not read it yourself.

Your second link refers to the WHO. The most recent recommendation from WHO is "to encourage the use of fabric face masks in public places . . .". As your linked article points out, CDC recommends masks.

Your second link refers to a study that concludes surgical masks could prevent the transmission of the virus. Argumentative question: did you actually read your own citations?

The authors of your second link suggest that much research is needed. Argumentative question: have you tried to find any of this research? Quite a bit has been done and I cannot find any that say masks don't work.

In short, both CDC and WHO recommend masks, which you could have easily determined before trying to use their recommendations as reasons not to wear masks. You have not bothered to search for recent research findings. I argue that you have not cited any primary sources, nor any recent sources.

As I said, if you find any recent primary sources that show mask wearing indoors in public places is not a good idea, let me know and I will engage again.

Note:The idea is not to "win the internet", as you put it, but to do our best to determine best practices by examining the most recent, pertinent research.
To spite what you may think, I have read the articles I posted.
Have you researched why the CDC and the WHO changed their minds? I have. Not much in the way of new studies (if any) have been done since May 11, yet they both recently changed their opinions.
I have to ask, based on what?
The physical, scientific, and anecdotal proof shows anything other than an N95 mask is useless in stopping aerosols. And then they're only gone if properly fit tested.
Now they're basically saying a pair of underwear on your face is sufficient? And you're just ok with that?

I'm glad you pointed out that the one article thought that masks "may" help, because the same article says that full enclosure goggles will help just as much.
Are you in support of full enclosure goggles being mandatory? Or is that too far for you?

And the video I posted with the aerosol spray doesn't lose relevance due to time, the experiment and its results are timeless.

When I want to know what the weather is like I look outside first, and then check the forecast to give me an idea what's coming that I can't see.
I'm going to guess that you do the same, but in reverse.

Stay safe out there, the world is full of bad stuff.
I'm driving out of Edmonton now to go shopping.
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  #228  
Old 07-31-2020, 11:52 AM
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Might be my size, the big beard and tattoo's that keep people six feet away from me... I can't deny it. Hey... Wait a minute... Maybe we are onto something!
Well, I have a small beard, can't adjust my height (but not my girth unfortunately) and I've never had a tattoo (and my wife has an opinion on that as well). Maybe I could carry a quarterstaff with a 2 m length painted in blaze orange.
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  #229  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:00 PM
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Well, I have a small beard, can't adjust my height (but not my girth unfortunately) and I've never had a tattoo (and my wife has an opinion on that as well). Maybe I could carry a quarterstaff with a 2 m length painted in blaze orange.
Kinda hypocritical pushing for everyone to wear a mask if you have a beard. Beards prevent the mask from functioning properly. Your saying wearing the masks in only a minor inconvenience and everyone should do it for the safety of others so I guess you should should shave your beard for the safety of others? Its only a minor inconvenience for you after all.
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  #230  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:02 PM
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Might be my size, the big beard and tattoo's that keep people six feet away from me... I can't deny it. Hey... Wait a minute... Maybe we are onto something!
I don't have a beard or tattoos, and I shower daily, and I haven't found it to be an issue. I practise defensive shopping.

It may be different in the larger cities, but here at most 20% of people wear masks in the stores, when I an shopping.
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  #231  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:04 PM
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Kinda hypocritical pushing for everyone to wear a mask if you have a beard. Beards prevent the mask from functioning properly. Your saying wearing the masks in only a minor inconvenience and everyone should do it for the safety of others so I guess you should should shave your beard for the safety of others? Its only a minor inconvenience for you after all.
Good point.
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  #232  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:14 PM
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Kinda hypocritical pushing for everyone to wear a mask if you have a beard. Beards prevent the mask from functioning properly. Your saying wearing the masks in only a minor inconvenience and everyone should do it for the safety of others so I guess you should should shave your beard for the safety of others? Its only a minor inconvenience for you after all.
I'm sure that beards are only an issue in the case of N95 or N99 respirators where a good seal is required. As far as I know, all surgical and cloth masks already leak around the cheeks, and probably the chin. In other words, until N95's are generally available again I don't have to shave.
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  #233  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:17 PM
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Good point.
See post #235.
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  #234  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:21 PM
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Its an issue with all masks however its more prevalent with industries that require proper fit testing. The beard allows more room for airflow making any mask useless. So are you going to shave for the safety sake of everyone else?
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  #235  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:23 PM
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I'm sure that beards are only an issue in the case of N95 or N99 respirators where a good seal is required. As far as I know, all surgical and cloth masks already leak around the cheeks, and probably the chin. In other words, until N95's are generally available again I don't have to shave.
Yes
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  #236  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:26 PM
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I'm sure that beards are only an issue in the case of N95 or N99 respirators where a good seal is required. As far as I know, all surgical and cloth masks already leak around the cheeks, and probably the chin. In other words, until N95's are generally available again I don't have to shave.
Regardless of which mask you use, the more it leaks, the less effective it is.
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  #237  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:26 PM
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I'd appreciate a link to your data. When I searched, I found a figure of 8967 deaths in Canada to date from Covid-19 (https://covid19tracker.ca/). The most recent vehicle accident death number that I found was 1740 for all of 2018 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ons-in-canada/).

Thanks for the information.

BTW no argument about smoking but that is a risk that is "easily" controlled by the individual.
Your data is false. Every one who died WITH covid is a covid death. Not all those died FROM covid. Look up the death rate to date this year and compare to last year and year before that. Go back 5 years and compare data. Covid deaths can only be death % above normal death rate for North America spoiler it's not a huge #. Look it up for yourself. Face book and social media have helped working people up into a frenzied pitch based solely on fear. Forcing everyone to wear a mask is a huge over reach. But hey if it makes you feel more comfortable thinking you might just save one life....What other rights are you willing to give up? How bout democracy? Firearms? Parental rights over your children? Finances? The list goes on. But hey as long as we are comfortable and promised peace....
I have 5 family members employed in 5 different hospitals in two provinces + 4 close friends and 2 relatives who are end in the provinces. None of these folks see this so called pandemic as any thing worse than the average flue ( and yes the average flue kills people) but the hype is simply powers at be working us all up into a frenzy.
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  #238  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:29 PM
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I am fully capable of staying 6 feet away in Costco or the grocery store from you too, whether you are a carrier or not. If you come into my space then that is on you.

Now getting on an airplane? At a baseball game? In a movie theatre? Sure I get it, but come on man... That isn't what we are talking about here.
On that I guess you can choose to avoid costco if it is mask free. Boycotting businesses that don't wear masks is an option also.
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  #239  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:34 PM
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I'm sure that beards are only an issue in the case of N95 or N99 respirators where a good seal is required. As far as I know, all surgical and cloth masks already leak around the cheeks, and probably the chin. In other words, until N95's are generally available again I don't have to shave.
Thankfully in most situations a regular mask works just fine.
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  #240  
Old 07-31-2020, 12:35 PM
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Damn you all...... I gotta google what conflate means..... sigh.
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