More Canadian style "justice"

[guysmiley]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...eath-1.5375591

What am I missing here? Shot the guy with a prohibited firearm and still found not guilty? Self defense or not, why are you running around with a prohibited firearm? No weapons charges?

This from the GTA where they won't stop talking about a handgun ban...
Maybe enforce the laws we already have.

[whiteout]

If they have gone so far as to charge the responding EMTs, I’d say there is much more to the story than what the article has in it.

[guysmiley]

Originally Posted by whiteout

If they have gone so far as to charge the responding EMTs, I’d say there is much more to the story than what the article has in it.

Yes, the EMT's were negligent but that doesn't excuse shooting someone with a prohibited firearm no less. The accused had no idea the EMT's would be negligent and play a part in the death. The jury also had the option to convict on a Manslaughter charge but chose not to.

The accused's violent history was also excluded from the Jury. From another article:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...jury-1.5373586

"King also has five prior assault convictions, including assault causing bodily harm and assault with a weapon. The defence filed what's called a Corbett application, which is aimed to prevent the jury from casting judgment on the accused's credibility. Goodman ruled to exclude the assaults, citing King's background, and that Indigenous people are overrepresented in the justice system."

[elkhunter11]

Regardless of any other factors, he was carrying a prohibited firearm, and that alone should put him behind bars for a few years. People are demanding tougher firearms laws, yet our current firearms laws are not enforced.

[NCC]

It’s pretty ****ty when the responding paramedics are held more responsible for a death than the douche bag who pulled the trigger.

This outcome also brings into question the abilities (or motives) of the prosecutor.

[Geraldsh]

"Goodman ruled to exclude the assaults, citing King's background, and that Indigenous people are overrepresented in the justice system."[/QUOTE]

So the judge wanted to go easy on him because there are already lots of indigenous people in jail - that’s like saying I don’t have to pay my speeding ticket because lots of other speeders are paying their tickets.

[elk eater]

not sure how you point a gun at somebody pull the trigger and then say your intent was not to kill them. I get the whole slow em down idea but that’s Hollywood. Once you pull that trigger IMO you are responsible for the out come regardless of how it ends. I can see how they got around second degree but to not find him guilt of Manslaughter wow. Sad.

As for the paramedics they should be charged and not allowed back into service. They told Yosif “ he should win an award for his acting “ as he was calling out in pain. Then made him walk to the ambulance. On route to hospital he dies with 2L of blood in his abdomen. I would not call these paramedics professionals. They should be charged.

Yosif is the only one in the whole situation who did anything right by intervening on a King and his buddy harassing an old man. Sad that he died doing what’s right and king his buddy and the paramedics did wrong and walk free.

What a world 😡

[Bigwoodsman]

Remember these same clowns voted liberal! Some people experience things differently.

BW

[guysmiley]

Originally Posted by elk eater

not sure how you point a gun at somebody pull the trigger and then say your intent was not to kill them. I get the whole slow em down idea but that’s Hollywood. Once you pull that trigger IMO you are responsible for the out come regardless of how it ends. I can see how they got around second degree but to not find him guilt of Manslaughter wow. Sad.

As for the paramedics they should be charged and not allowed back into service. They told Yosif “ he should win an award for his acting “ as he was calling out in pain. Then made him walk to the ambulance. On route to hospital he dies with 2L of blood in his abdomen. I would not call these paramedics professionals. They should be charged.

Yosif is the only one in the whole situation who did anything right by intervening on a King and his buddy harassing an old man. Sad that he died doing what’s right and king his buddy and the paramedics did wrong and walk free.

What a world 😡

Completely agree with your view of the paramedics. Unbelievable actually.

[raab]

Originally Posted by elk eater

not sure how you point a gun at somebody pull the trigger and then say your intent was not to kill them. I get the whole slow em down idea but that’s Hollywood. Once you pull that trigger IMO you are responsible for the out come regardless of how it ends. I can see how they got around second degree but to not find him guilt of Manslaughter wow. Sad.

As for the paramedics they should be charged and not allowed back into service. They told Yosif “ he should win an award for his acting “ as he was calling out in pain. Then made him walk to the ambulance. On route to hospital he dies with 2L of blood in his abdomen. I would not call these paramedics professionals. They should be charged.

Yosif is the only one in the whole situation who did anything right by intervening on a King and his buddy harassing an old man. Sad that he died doing what’s right and king his buddy and the paramedics did wrong and walk free.

What a world 😡

Pretty easy to criticize when you’re not in their shoes. Article clearly states they thought he was shot with a BB gun, and that he died an hour later waiting in the hospital. The fault here is on the public system that see paramedics wait for hours with patients. If he had been triaged quickly and saw a doctor quickly he may still be here. The paramedics have very few tools to assess an abdominal bleed and probably wouldn’t notice anything until the patient was in severe distress as his heart rate went up, and blood pressure dropped.

[Sundog57]

Read the Criminal Code sections 88-93.
Unbelievable
Probably makes more sense if you are Liberal to ban guns than to apply the law

[gramps73]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Regardless of any other factors, he was carrying a prohibited firearm, and that alone should put him behind bars for a few years. People are demanding tougher firearms laws, yet our current firearms laws are not enforced.

agreed 100%
this is the stuff that makes my head spin...

[EZM]

Originally Posted by raab

Pretty easy to criticize when you’re not in their shoes. Article clearly states they thought he was shot with a BB gun, and that he died an hour later waiting in the hospital. The fault here is on the public system that see paramedics wait for hours with patients. If he had been triaged quickly and saw a doctor quickly he may still be here. The paramedics have very few tools to assess an abdominal bleed and probably wouldn’t notice anything until the patient was in severe distress as his heart rate went up, and blood pressure dropped.

The victim likely went into shock.

I'm not a doctor, but if the paramedics took the even most basic course of action, and checked and/or monitored his vital signs, and saw he was in shock, they could/would have intervened and perhaps saved his life wouldn't they?

[ghfalls]

This along with the girl who got away with impaired driving because she was indigenous pretty much says if you’re indigenous you can literally get away with murder in Ontario. What a joke. Another sad day for Canada.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by EZM

The victim likely went into shock.

I'm not a doctor, but if the paramedics took the even most basic course of action, and checked and/or monitored his vital signs, and saw he was in shock, they could/would have intervened and perhaps saved his life wouldn't they?

They can not open him up and tie off a bleed, no.
Paramedics can assess, give pain killers, treat for cardiac arrest and a multitude of other ailments but they are not surgeons. Only 1 thing stops internal bleeding; a Surgeon.

King has a lengthy criminal record, including five convictions for assault, including assault with a weapon and assault causing bodily harm. Justice Andrew Goodman ruled to exclude the assault convictions from what the jury heard.

King is Indigenous, Goodman said, and Indigenous people are overrepresented in the criminal justice system.

Why is this exactly? What % do they make up in the system? There must be some reason they are "overrepresented"

All of this makes my blood boil. Who's favor is the judge trying to buy with this line of reasoning???

Actually it makes sense, the LIberal judge refers to it as the CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, as in justice for the poor understood criminals. Puke

[raab]

Originally Posted by EZM

The victim likely went into shock.

I'm not a doctor, but if the paramedics took the even most basic course of action, and checked and/or monitored his vital signs, and saw he was in shock, they could/would have intervened and perhaps saved his life wouldn't they?

Well it depends. If he was on an IV his vital signs may not have changed much as the saline was replacing the lost blood. By the time he would have been showing any signs such as decreased level of consciousness. He would have already lost a significant amount of blood. A ETC02 monitor might have caught the build up of C02 in his body if he was on one, but you usually don’t put patients on one unless they’re having breathing issues.

People need to realize that a paramedics job is to get you to a higher level of care as quickly as possible. All the skills they have don’t fix anything, they just prolong how long they can keep you alive. This patient needed to be seen by a physician and have a surgery done quickly to rule out any internal bleeding, and recover the bullet. But because everyone gets free healthcare and goes to emergency rooms with the sniffles. He had to wait in a hallway before they had a bed for him. Public healthcare is killing people, and keeping them in pain because everyone abuses the system as it costs them nothing. Emergency visits should cost 500 dollars, with the doctor having the right to waive the fee for actual emergencies. Non emergent people can still go to walk-in clinics for free assessments.

[tullfan]

Originally Posted by NCC

It’s pretty ****ty when the responding paramedics are held more responsible for a death than the douche bag who pulled the trigger.

This outcome also brings into question the abilities (or motives) of the prosecutor.

My little brother is an Emt in Hamilton and works/worked with the two accused.
There is more to the story than is being reported. As much as I’d love to elaborate and shed some light, I’m not privy to all the info. I’m just saying that the Emt’s if they’re smart take good notes and try to cover their butts as best they can. Time will tell.

Tullfan

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by raab

Emergency visits should cost 500 dollars, with the doctor having the right to waive the fee for actual emergencies. Non emergent people can still go to walk-in clinics for free assessments.

This X100

[Grizzly Adams]

Hopefully, the Crown will appeal, it's judgments like this that bring the process into disrepute. If the victim had been Native, there'd have been hell to pay and we'd never hear the end of it.

Grizz

[elk eater]

Originally Posted by raab

Pretty easy to criticize when you’re not in their shoes. Article clearly states they thought he was shot with a BB gun, and that he died an hour later waiting in the hospital. The fault here is on the public system that see paramedics wait for hours with patients. If he had been triaged quickly and saw a doctor quickly he may still be here. The paramedics have very few tools to assess an abdominal bleed and probably wouldn’t notice anything until the patient was in severe distress as his heart rate went up, and blood pressure dropped.

I think you need to read the article again or more on the story. First of all they thought the small hole in his abdomen was from a BB gun. Ok great. Still a bullet in his guts. That’s something I would say should be taken seriously. I would even go as far to say that they should have been concerned about internal damage such as bleeding. Then they take 23 mins on site before they leave. 40 mins from On site to arrival at hospital. At which point he was unconscious already for a total of 4 mins. So I highly doubt an unconscious patient with a gun wound is made to wait in triage The said an hr in the article but unfortunately that was the time from gunshot to death.

You were right on one thing if he had seen a doctor quicker he might still be alive. Say the 23 minutes the paramedics were telling him he could win an Oscar for the screaming he was doing ?!?

If the paramedics had taken a gun shot wound seriously regardless of caliber then he may still be alive. Should have transported immediately

[raab]

Originally Posted by elk eater

I think you need to read the article again or more on the story. First of all they thought the small hole in his abdomen was from a BB gun. Ok great. Still a bullet in his guts. That’s something I would say should be taken seriously. I would even go as far to say that they should have been concerned about internal damage such as bleeding. Then they take 23 mins on site before they leave. 40 mins from On site to arrival at hospital. At which point he was unconscious already for a total of 4 mins. So I highly doubt an unconscious patient with a gun would is made to wait in triage The said an hr in the article but unfortunately that was the time from gunshot to death.

You were right on one thing if he had seen a doctor quicker he might still be alive. Say the 23 minutes the paramedics were telling him he could win an Oscar for the screaming he was doing ?!?

If the paramedics had taken a gun shot wound seriously regardless of caliber then he may still be alive. Should have transported immediately

Where are you getting that info? None of that is in the article.

[elk eater]

Originally Posted by raab

Well it depends. If he was on an IV his vital signs may not have changed much as the saline was replacing the lost blood. By the time he would have been showing any signs such as decreased level of consciousness. He would have already lost a significant amount of blood. A ETC02 monitor might have caught the build up of C02 in his body if he was on one, but you usually don’t put patients on one unless they’re having breathing issues.

People need to realize that a paramedics job is to get you to a higher level of care as quickly as possible. All the skills they have don’t fix anything, they just prolong how long they can keep you alive. This patient needed to be seen by a physician and have a surgery done quickly to rule out any internal bleeding, and recover the bullet. But because everyone gets free healthcare and goes to emergency rooms with the sniffles. He had to wait in a hallway before they had a bed for him. Public healthcare is killing people, and keeping them in pain because everyone abuses the system as it costs them nothing. Emergency visits should cost 500 dollars, with the doctor having the right to waive the fee for actual emergencies. Non emergent people can still go to walk-in clinics for free assessments.

Where are you getting that he waited in the hallway. You are making that up. He was unconscious at time of arrival. You said your self get the patient there quickly. That is where the paramedics failed as they did not do this. That is why they were charged.
He was seen immediately by a surgeon who tried to stop the bleeding and it was already to late to save him.

[elk eater]

Originally Posted by raab

Where are you getting that info? None of that is in the article.

You need to read up some more. There are piles of articles on the situation as well as the testimony now.

[elk eater]

Originally Posted by raab

Emergency visits should cost 500 dollars, with the doctor having the right to waive the fee for actual emergencies. Non emergent people can still go to walk-in clinics for free assessments.

This I agree with 100%. Would take care of a lot of the sniffles and alleviate some of the hallway wait times. I do worry that some people truly in need though would not go. Such as the old man with chest pains not wanting to spend 500 dollars.

[raab]

Originally Posted by elk eater

Where are you getting that he waited in the hallway. You are making that up. He was unconscious at time of arrival. You said your self get the patient there quickly. That is where the paramedics failed as they did not do this. That is why they were charged.
He was seen immediately by a surgeon who tried to stop the bleeding and it was already to late to save him.

If he was on a surgeons table within an hour of shooting that’s what they aim for. Could have maybe been a bit faster, but chaotic scene and trying to get info could have slowed them down. Here’s two hard facts: the paramedics didn’t shoot the kid, and people die despite them helping. We’re they negligent? I dunno, buts it’s crap like this that made me get out of the public service. Every keyboard warrior has an opinion on how they’d have done things better. Waiting to take pictures with their phones, and sue you if you screw up. Maybe I should come follow you around at work, and if you take to long doing something you lose your job and get sued. I’ll cut the guys some slack until something comes out in their trial.

[elk eater]

Originally Posted by raab

If he was on a surgeons table within an hour of shooting that’s what they aim for. Could have maybe been a bit faster, but chaotic scene and trying to get info could have slowed them down. Here’s two hard facts: the paramedics didn’t shoot the kid, and people die despite them helping. We’re they negligent? I dunno, buts it’s crap like this that made me get out of the public service. Every keyboard warrior has an opinion on how they’d have done things better. Waiting to take pictures with their phones, and sue you if you screw up. Maybe I should come follow you around at work, and if you take to long doing something you lose your job and get sued. I’ll cut the guys some slack until something comes out in their trial.

Fair enough. I get it and I agree it’s a tough job and not one I would want. Good on ya for doing it. And maybe your right. Maybe they did all they could. From what I have read to me it does not seem so. Hopefully it gets sorted out in the courthouse and I sure do hope they get it right. Other lives are in the balance wether they return to work ( save some ) or don’t cause they were negligent.

I really do think it takes a special kind of person to do that job day in and day out. To walk up to a scene like that and wash every other encounter away, to focus on the issue at hand must truly be hard. I really hope though that when I or you need paramedics they are at their best and take the utmost care with my or yours health.

But your right. I’ll cut em some slack till the courts make a decision. I think your right in calling me out on that. There may still be circumstances I don’t know from what I’ve read.

[saskbooknut]

No judgement from me on the medical care.

The scum that shot the lad, carrying a prohibited firearm and using it - He should be out of circulation for life.
The offenders race or colour is irrelevant.
Let's hope a Crown appeal brings some sense to this case.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by saskbooknut

No judgement from me on the medical care.

The scum that shot the lad, carrying a prohibited firearm and using it - He should be out of circulation for life.
The offenders race or colour is irrelevant.
Let's hope a Crown appeal brings some sense to this case.

But in today's society, race or color is not irrelevant, and our racist charter allows this.

[zabbo]

Canada has a legal system. Cannot be called a justice system by any stretch of the imagination!

[raab]

Originally Posted by elk eater

Fair enough. I get it and I agree it’s a tough job and not one I would want. Good on ya for doing it. And maybe your right. Maybe they did all they could. From what I have read to me it does not seem so. Hopefully it gets sorted out in the courthouse and I sure do hope they get it right. Other lives are in the balance wether they return to work ( save some ) or don’t cause they were negligent.

I really do think it takes a special kind of person to do that job day in and day out. To walk up to a scene like that and wash every other encounter away, to focus on the issue at hand must truly be hard. I really hope though that when I or you need paramedics they are at their best and take the utmost care with my or yours health.

But your right. I’ll cut em some slack till the courts make a decision. I think your right in calling me out on that. There may still be circumstances I don’t know from what I’ve read.

Well said. Those guys have a tough job, and everyone should give them the benefit of the doubt, until its proven they did something wrong. Most of the paramedics I know will do their best for the patient. Some get burned out and pick up bad habits. Doesn't mean they did something that killed the patient. Its very hard to be negligent as an EMS provider.