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  #1  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:29 AM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Default Wolf Cull/ Poisioning in AB

Hi all i want to share with everyone what our local in Grande Cache is doing to try to get some anwsers as to how our Gov can get away with what they are doing. I will share our letter and their response and then our reply again so far.... I will also include a report done by Bob Stewart on the Caribou. It is a little bit of reading but this stuff is not acceptable. They kill 200 healthy animals to be used for bait while we are criminals if you kill an elk to feed your family if it has antlers a couple inches short. They are using poision to kill wolfs(and everything else) which should not be allowed in todays age! This is not a pleasant death and there are better ways to control populations. Just all the accidental kills (that they will admit to) shows they are not reponsible with how they are using the pooision. I dont want to make this to long as its already enough reading but i encourage all to take the time to read and take 2 mins to send an email( ill try to post a link) to our Primier on this subject. They are doing this here but they wont stop here it will be everywhere there is Caribou if they are geting away with it already.

Letter 1.PDF

Here is our letter if i did it right and will put more up if it works!
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  #2  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:36 AM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Their reply:
Response.PDF

Then here is our latest letter back to them!
Letter 2.PDF

Here is the link to the priemier's email, it doesnt have to be formal the more emails they get the more the more they will have to deal with the problem. If you are involved in a trapper local or fish and game club you should take it to your members so they are aware. Power is in numbers and we can either cry in a coffee shop about the good old days or try to stop it before it is only the good old days left!


premier@gov.ab.ca
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  #3  
Old 12-18-2014, 10:57 AM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:59 AM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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I tried putting the article from AO from Bob Stewart which is a great article but its too big, but here is an essay thats a good read too:

Report.PDF

Also good info on Caribou and the real problem on the CPAW website, you can google if the link dont work!

http://cpaws.org/news/threats-outpac...-annual-review

We need to fight back on this crap!
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  #5  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:11 AM
NewGuard84 NewGuard84 is offline
 
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Some of us will be doing our part to hunt wolves over the winter where possible. Would rather see that happen than poisoning
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.
So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:28 AM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.
While everyone is entitled to their own opinion its not about controling wolf numbers, its the way ther are doing it. Posioning is not a good or humane method. I believe if there was incentive there would be more than enoguh trappers to effectivly reduce the numbers but also they could have bounties and ask California if bounties work (they almost wiped out cougars altogether becasue of a bounty). Why not more than trappers go with fish and game clubs and hunters. At $5000 per wolf for the heli shoots im sure they can motivate people cheaper than that.Why do every other species need to die to save caribou? 1000 moose tags in 353 ya that make sense. There is little wolves left in the al lepeche little smokey area and yet caribou are not populating. The problem is not wolves people it industry, and you mean to tell me the griazzlies are not feeding on the calves of game in the area, grizzily numbers are exploding but oh ya there is none. Its easy to hide behind the "wolf cry" thats what they want people to do. some of the cut blocks in the area have less than 30% recovery rate which is obscene, they have no highway barriers dont care about creeks..... i can go on all day but its sad that we protected more in 1980 than we do today and we know more and have more technology today......
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:29 AM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt L. View Post
So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?
No I am not! I should have added that I am 100% in favor of the helicopter aerial assault, but not poisoning because of the unintended kills. That is where I stand on this issue.

Let me ask you a question Matt L. Have you been looking on the trapper threads on AO, if so how many wolves have you seen killed by trappers?
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  #9  
Old 12-18-2014, 11:34 AM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L. View Post
So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?
Your exactly right:
91 ravens, 36 coyotes, 31 foxes, 8 marten, 6 lynx, 4 weasels and 4 fishers
is what they will admit too.
But not 1 wolverine or eagle or grizz or 4 pet dogs...... BS and thats doing an 8 day check which is also riduclious and carless and they are not going to look anywhere thats probably what died on the bait pile.
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  #10  
Old 12-18-2014, 12:06 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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They have my full support to expand this operation throughout alberta. I would like to see roadkill used but if not so be it.
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Old 12-18-2014, 12:11 PM
dmcbride dmcbride is offline
 
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Default To the OP.

I don't spend much time in the areas that you describe, but I agree with what you are saying.


If poison is the answer. It does not make sense from a money perspective to gun down ungulates to poison them when there is already road kill. It is cheaper to long line a animal and drop it then it is to find a animal, shoot it, find a place to land, set poison, take off and repeat. They could collect lots of road kill and set poison and long line a lot more animals in one day than the way they are doing it right now.

Your letter touches on spraying to kill every plant that isn't pine. I was spring bear hunting and watched a helicopter spray one of my favorite cutblocks in Wmu 339 this year. Needless to say come fall there wasn't a track to be found in that cutblock. The practice should be banned.
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Old 12-18-2014, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
No I am not! I should have added that I am 100% in favor of the helicopter aerial assault, but not poisoning because of the unintended kills. That is where I stand on this issue.

Let me ask you a question Matt L. Have you been looking on the trapper threads on AO, if so how many wolves have you seen killed by trappers?
Wolves are not the only, hell not even the major, issue at play here. Number 1 front and centre is habitat loss. No amount wolves killed will give caribou more habitat. The second one is even less likely to be admitted by the gov. Bears do a big number on ungulate calf crops. Ask the trappers and others who frequent that area how the grizzly bear population is doing out there.
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Old 12-18-2014, 12:17 PM
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Matt L. Matt L. is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
They have my full support to expand this operation throughout alberta. I would like to see roadkill used but if not so be it.
So you are giving the government your full support to kill thousands of so-called non target species across the province? Please do not call yourself a conservationist.
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  #14  
Old 12-18-2014, 12:19 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Like every outfitter did in the 60s
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Old 12-18-2014, 12:28 PM
HunterDave HunterDave is offline
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I'll have to read all of the articles later tonight.

Just out of curiosity, and I know that this is minor to the big issue, what do they do with all of that fur?
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Old 12-18-2014, 12:29 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L. View Post
Wolves are not the only, hell not even the major, issue at play here. Number 1 front and centre is habitat loss. No amount wolves killed will give caribou more habitat. The second one is even less likely to be admitted by the gov. Bears do a big number on ungulate calf crops. Ask the trappers and others who frequent that area how the grizzly bear population is doing out there.
Actually Matt, I have personally hunted the Willmore Wilderness Area on horseback, so I am quite familiar with the area and I can tell you first hand that there are lots of Grizzly in the area.

I can also tell you that Grizzly predation on ungulates is very low in comparison to Wolf predation on calf and mature ungulates which is way higher as in x100
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:08 PM
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The Willmore is only one small part, the area is essentially west of hwy 40. You also missed the whole habitat thing. As to Gbear vs wolf predation, you can tell me for certain that wolf predation far outweighs bear throught our woodland caribou herds?
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:15 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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I am saying that wolf predation on ungulate populations in general far exceeds that of bears, period.

RockyMountainMusic, I wanted to add that I do not have any issues with trappers or trapping! It would be great if the government put a bounty on wolves, so you guys can make more $$$. $1,000.00 per wolf would be cool
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:22 PM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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edit* getting a little owly but its aggravating! look at the big picture, its not just about wolves read all the info.... wolf,bear,habitat,poison,shooting healthy animals which by the way the populations are NOT soaring........... this is not an issue of trappers need more money for wolves look at the big picture!

Last edited by RockyMountainMusic; 12-18-2014 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:26 PM
RockyMountainMusic RockyMountainMusic is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HunterDave View Post
I'll have to read all of the articles later tonight.

Just out of curiosity, and I know that this is minor to the big issue, what do they do with all of that fur?
I know some fur was flown by the contractors hired in BC(heli owners) back into BC... without permits im sure! See there is som much to all of this crap that is going on and its wrong in so many ways.
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
I am saying that wolf predation on ungulate populations in general far exceeds that of bears period.
I'm not talking in general. I'm talking about this specific area where the gov is conducting a specific poisoning program specifically to save caribou. And it's not working. Why?
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Old 12-18-2014, 01:30 PM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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Industry gets their own way everytime. Don't forget that is them who does the "science" and makes the recommendations to Gov't how to protect this that or the other thing. All the Gov't does anymore is pay for ill advised "management" and enforcement. No education, no science, and no brains. Rule book and ticket book in hand are the only tools your local Forest Officer has anymore. Think the FMA holder is going to hold back on a block of prime timber with the threat of a $5000 fine?

This situation is just a small part of a larger problem in Alberta that has been escalating for many years now. Take what you can while you can and everyone and everything be damned!!!! Basically our Gov't has abdicated responsibility for resource management to Industry kind of like putting a Wolf in sheeps cloths don't you think?
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:11 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Industry gets their own way everytime. Don't forget that is them who does the "science" and makes the recommendations to Gov't how to protect this that or the other thing. All the Gov't does anymore is pay for ill advised "management" and enforcement. No education, no science, and no brains. Rule book and ticket book in hand are the only tools your local Forest Officer has anymore. Think the FMA holder is going to hold back on a block of prime timber with the threat of a $5000 fine?

This situation is just a small part of a larger problem in Alberta that has been escalating for many years now. Take what you can while you can and everyone and everything be damned!!!! Basically our Gov't has abdicated responsibility for resource management to Industry kind of like putting a Wolf in sheeps cloths don't you think?
That topic has been discussed here in detail and you are bang on! The oil industry has destroyed much of the natural beauty of Alberta. I see nothing wrong with trying to protect the remaining caribou, and I also see nothing wrong with dramatically reducing the wolf population throughout the province.

Has anyone else noticed all the complaining about wolves on AO, or is it just me?
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:52 PM
st99 st99 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dmcbride View Post
Your letter touches on spraying to kill every plant that isn't pine. I was spring bear hunting and watched a helicopter spray one of my favorite cutblocks in Wmu 339 this year. Needless to say come fall there wasn't a track to be found in that cutblock. The practice should be banned.
x2, something every outdoorsmen should be concern about, cause the plants they kill is what feeds wildlife
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Old 12-18-2014, 02:59 PM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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About 7-8 years back Canfor sprayed just north of where I live, about 10-15 miles as the crow flies. For years after that, no butterflies, no bumble bees, no frogs, heck hardly any small crawlys of any description. This last summer we finally we had butterflys, frogs, bumble bees and everything finally seems more or less normal. Those plants feed a lot more than wildlife than you think!
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:05 PM
Deo101 Deo101 is offline
 
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Another point to add is that every road cut in gives the wolves more of an upper hand. You can see evidence of it all through the area. I hunted 344 a lot this year and there were wolf tracks on almost every road we traveled. They travel the rd cut a trail and kill.

I can't believe that they are actually offing Moose, Elk etc from a Heli for the use of bait. Gotta be about about a thousand better idea's than that. Road kill being the most obvious. Thanks for the post and informing a lot of us of whats going on there.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:30 PM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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http://cpaws.org/uploads/Ten_Years_a...cvery_Plan.pdf

Here is the link to the CPAWS summary on Alberta's efforts.
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Old 12-18-2014, 03:38 PM
Craddosk Craddosk is offline
 
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I think the method of poisoning has escaped a few people. The carcass itself is clean.

The way the baits are set up is an animal is set up in the center of the proposed bait area. Then in a circle around the bait, 2 chunks of meat with strychnine in them, are buried beneath snow mounds and are suppose to be under at least 2 feet of snow. This prevents the majority of animals from getting to the poisoned bait unless they can dig through the snow.

Baiting is run in January and February to minimize mortality among non-target species. Baits are distributed and collected and each site is also signed just in case someone finds it. Generally unintended mortality will occur in any project, but this minimizes it. And you have to remember, most of the biologists are scientists, so they won't hide mortality rates. Lots of these guys use the data to publish peer reviewed studies. And saying that the animals die and are never found is likely a very low percentage, as strychnine is very quick acting.
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:06 PM
waterninja waterninja is offline
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Thanks Rocky for bringing these topics forward on this forum, and for copying your letters and and the responces you got.
Must be very frustrating to yourself and everyone involved, when you set out clear grievances you have in a concise and ordered way, only to get a general responce back that really doesen't say anything or address a lot of your questions. Sounds like they don't really take you or your concerns seriously while at the same time patting themselves on the back.
From your letters it sounds like some of the measures they are taking would normally be illegal (heli pilots collecting wolfs to sell in B.C.) and others just downright stupid and unethical eg. poisening baits, not using roadkill, not to mention very costly.
On the other hand i can see why you are being ignored or just paid lip service, as the ruling Govt. must get enormous compaign funds and other monies from lumber, gas, oil, and energy companies, so there requests naturally supercede yours.
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:47 PM
nicaragua nicaragua is offline
 
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This is Bob Stewart and maybe I can help explain the story.

This is a rather complex story that unfortunately gets simplified ad thrown into a wolf controller vs wolf protector forum very easily.

I a a 66 year old field biologist. For many years I was moose research biologist in Saskatchewan going back to the 1970's and early 80's. In those days we did not have access to a lot of high tech radio collars, GPS location technology, and Geographical Information Systems, and pleased ourselves by passing a lot of time in the bush. A very sweet life.

We were having problems with low moose calf survival in those days in the Cumberland Delta- a lowland expanse on the border of Sask and Manitoba. My years in the bush revealed that during the calving season we had a lot of bears roaming around and very few wolves. Wolves not too keen about walking through water, but bears did not care so had this idea bears were likely killing moose calves. So in 1982 and 1983 we took the bears out of 300 km2 and low and behold calf survival doubled. We have no idea of the percentage of bears we removed but it was about 10 animals/100 km2.

Years later (2000) I was in Alberta and attended a caribou meeting and listened to the scientists talking about wolves killing caribou, and suggested to them the pattern of mortality they were describing was more reminiscent about bears than wolves, and asked if anyone was researching bears and the answer was no. I then left the country till 2008 and in 2010 picked up the story and was amazed to see Alberta was still on their wolf agenda. So I began to dig into the published research. I am not talking about whether I like or hate wolves or bears but about the literature that blamed wolves for something I thought bears were doing.

I knows many hunters want to blame wolves for almost everything and I do not argue wolves kill ungulates- that is how they survive. But caribou represent a very different story, and any hunter worth his/her salt will recognize that you see a lot of moose/deer/elk compared to caribou when you are hunting in the boreal forest. The reason is twofold. First there are very few boreal caribou in alberta- LIKE ONLY 2500 compared to like 120000 moose, 200,000 bears, 7000 wolves, 26,000 elk and god knows how many deer. In areas where caribou and wolves cohabit the population densities are about the same including upland habitats.

However, boreal caribou inhabit bogs. There numbers are about 1-2 animals for every 100 square kilometers. In this same area you may find 1/2 wolf for every 100 square kilometers and up to 20 bears, or 40x the number of bears.

The caribou calving season is 6 weeks long (May 15-June 30), but in this time only about 1/3 of the calves born will be alive in July. Now you have to think real hard here to figure out what is happening. Wolves do not live in bogs, but prefer uplands. The science of dozens of publications states that caribou isolate themselves from wolves. In May the alpha female is having pups and is tied to the den. She often chooses bogs to have her pups to isolate herself, but tends to hunt easy prey like beavers that are tied to riparian habitats. Caribou cows on the other hand hide away deep within bogs, and the probability of a caribou meeting a wolf is very very low. And remember there are not enough caribou to become a species that wolves can afford to pay attention to.. One beaver provides 5X the nutrition of a scrawny little caribou calf.

But, at the same time of year we have bears, recently out of their den from winter hibernation looking for something to eat. Remember, bears are omnivores and survive on plants a lot more than meat, but they cannot resist a tasty little meal. We do know that about one third of bears will move into bogs in the spring time in search of early green up vegetation like horsetails and sedges. This is important as caribou also like this fresh spring food. This provides an opportunity for bears and caribou, particularly cows with calves to interact with bears in the same vegetation rich patches. So bears can follow mom in hopes of an especially nice meal which may lead them to a calf.

Research in many parts of Canada have shown bears are pretty darned good at finding caribou calves. In Newfoundland 2/3 of calf mortality is due to bears. In Quebec they showed that 95% of predator-killed calves were victims of bears and only 5% wolves.

I am not discussing here whether wolves kill ungulates- of course they do, and this has led to many wolf control programs in the history of wildlife management. I am not here to debate that. My issue is the wolf culling programs in Alberta in the name of woodland caribou management. The Little Smokey is the single example to date of such control efforts. Ten years of wolf culling resulting in the death of 1000 wolves and the sacrifice of a couple of hundred moose, elk and deer as strychnine baits has resulted in a population of two less caribou, and based on this the government and university biologists behind these programs feel justified to kill more wolves, moose, elk and deer. They are claiming success.

i am not only a biologist, but also a hunter. But first I use my head. This program has not worked well and wolves from surrounding habitats have invaded the Little Smokey year after year from surrounding habitats. When you break down the social structure in wolf packs you release a breeding potential that is spectacular.

The biologists in Alberta went into this program as a 2-3 year control effort in which they thought the caribou population would be released. This has failed. But they have failed to understand what is actually happening. Wolves are not killing caribou calves and there is not a single published incident of a wolf taking a caribou calf in Alberta. Alberta researchers have studied wolves and caribou for decades while completely ignoring the most numerous and effective predator of calves- black bears.

This is really a story of human stupidity and does not warrant the debate about whether wolf killing is good or bad- in the case off woodland caribou it is a travesty, a waste of money and waste of time. In addition the use of poison to control wolves is not good. i care not whether you agree or not, but dying by strychnine is not a sweet death weather you be a wolf, wolverine, lynx, fox, coyote, raven, eagle or whatever chews upon the carcass of a bait.

The story does not end here however. The government has also sponsored trapping programs within caribou habitats that have killed hundreds of non-target species, In addition to those mentioned above we can add cougars, moose, deer, bears, and even caribou dying in foot snares.

For me the worst part of this is the reality that we can probably make headway with bears without killing them. I have been involved in private research which essentially means $125000 out of pocket with an associate of mine to evaluate whether we can effectively deliver aversive conditioning to bears that may be useful to reducing the impact of their predation on caribou calves. The government of Alberta refused to even meet with us to discuss the pros and cons of such an approach in 2013.

I would advise people here to get a bit more involved than to simply whine. How long would it take you to simply write a note to the Minister responsible for this to be accountable. Ask them directly what their policy is towards woodland caribou management in Alberta and whether or not they have considered bears as the potential primary predator of woodland caribou calves and has this been reflected in their funding of bear research in Alberta. IF HE SAYS YES YOU WILL KNOW the depths of deception.

The power really lies in your hands but you need to be responsible and unemotional in your communications. if you do not stand up and accept that whining in an opinion blog is sufficient action on your behalf so be it. I for one will continue in my battle for truth and respect for wildlife.

This problem exists because of our pursuit of resources and human economy, and in my books, the beneficiaries have the money to foot the bill for solutions.

I will happily attempt to answer any questions you wish to pose to me, but be respectful
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