Alberta Trappers Association proposed DAO/MOU

Hello there to all fellow trappers and outdoors enthusiasts!!! More will become clear when the ATA has the annual Presidents meeting in April, but I would like to start a discussion on the proposed MOU with SRD. It had initially been voted on by 85% of a small group of trappers at last years AGM in Grande Prairie to proceed forward with the DAO concept (self governing such as APOS). Now it has changed a bit as I understand it to beginning with some form of MOU. I'd like to hear what other people think on this. Should it be voted on again considering the change in course? This is a very important issue and it would be great to have good response. There are other issues to discuss as well that will have to be discussed.....should we continue to have the Westlock store? Should there be just an Administrative Facility instead? Come on and reply on this or any other issues you feel are important!!!

[sourdough doug]

I wonder if there will be any response from the real grass roots or just from those looking out for themselves and close friends. You are right, there are and always were far to many issues that had never been resolved. A lot of the smoke and mirror scenario. Maybe here, things can be discussed and some smoke removed from the mirror.

Originally Posted by sourdough doug

I wonder if there will be any response from the real grass roots or just from those looking out for themselves and close friends. You are right, there are and always were far to many issues that had never been resolved. A lot of the smoke and mirror scenario. Maybe here, things can be discussed and some smoke removed from the mirror.

Hi Doug, I hope this thread will get some peoples ideas circulating, I am not sure how many trappers visit here but we are about to find out!!! It would be nice to go to the Presidents meeting with some different ideas and views. I hope you will be able to make the AGM down South this year...there are some great prizes and auction items as well as competitions, demonstrations etc....it's going to be a great event and I'm sure looking forward to it!!!

[Brian Bildson]

Redgreen I'm glad you're interested in the DAO. It's no secret that I'm an advocate for the DAO, and to be honest can't figure out why any trapper would be against it. I'll try to explain to you what is happening as I believe you're confusing the DAO / MOU with each other.

The first step in the process is the actual setting up of the DAO. Basically this is an non-government "administrative structure" that the government delegates certain administrative duties to. The exact duties are detailed in MOU's (memorandium of understanding) or program agreements. The two DAO's that most outdoorsmen are familiar with are APOS and ACA.

The ATA model will not deal with enforcement but will be more pro-active in the day to day activities of trappers. I can see cabin compliance, license renewals, management plans etc. being administered by the ATA. However I am not involved in any way with putting the DAO together so the exact details are not known to me yet.

The only reason I've heard trappers speak up so far against the DAO is financial cost to themselves, and fears by inactive trappers they're going to lose their traplines. Perhaps there are other valid reasons and I'm open to discussing them.

By the way Redgreen your comments about the vote in Grande Prairie are disrespectful to the trappers who took the time to attend. Throughout the history of the ATA decisions of this type were resolved by those in attendence at the AGM, and not by proxies. Are you saying all those decisions, which were just as important in their day, are BS?

In closing here's my position. If you are against the DAO because you know what it is, and what it'll do, I respect you. If you have no opinion yet but want to get informed, I respect you.

But If you're against it because your buddy told you to be, or you're too tight to pay what is probably one days pay to support a DAO, or you're scared you'll lose a trapline you haven't trapped in 5 years, or you're against it because you don't like the ATA Board, or you hate trappers, well... we don't need folks like that in the ATA.

Personally I'm hoping for the best because I'm a big believer in the power of common sense. I believe the vast majority of trappers support the DAO. How can being in the driver's seat be bad for us?

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

Redgreen I'm glad you're interested in the DAO. It's no secret that I'm an advocate for the DAO, and to be honest can't figure out why any trapper would be against it. I'll try to explain to you what is happening as I believe you're confusing the DAO / MOU with each other.

The first step in the process is the actual setting up of the DAO. Basically this is an non-government "administrative structure" that the government delegates certain administrative duties to. The exact duties are detailed in MOU's (memorandium of understanding) or program agreements. The two DAO's that most outdoorsmen are familiar with are APOS and ACA.

The ATA model will not deal with enforcement but will be more pro-active in the day to day activities of trappers. I can see cabin compliance, license renewals, management plans etc. being administered by the ATA. However I am not involved in any way with putting the DAO together so the exact details are not known to me yet.

The only reason I've heard trappers speak up so far against the DAO is financial cost to themselves, and fears by inactive trappers they're going to lose their traplines. Perhaps there are other valid reasons and I'm open to discussing them.

By the way Redgreen your comments about the vote in Grande Prairie are disrespectful to the trappers who took the time to attend. Throughout the history of the ATA decisions of this type were resolved by those in attendence at the AGM, and not by proxies. Are you saying all those decisions, which were just as important in their day, are BS?

In closing here's my position. If you are against the DAO because you know what it is, and what it'll do, I respect you. If you have no opinion yet but want to get informed, I respect you.

But If you're against it because your buddy told you to be, or you're too tight to pay what is probably one days pay to support a DAO, or you're scared you'll lose a trapline you haven't trapped in 5 years, or you're against it because you don't like the ATA Board, or you hate trappers, well... we don't need folks like that in the ATA.

Personally I'm hoping for the best because I'm a big believer in the power of common sense. I believe the vast majority of trappers support the DAO. How can being in the driver's seat be bad for us?

I think my confusion with the DAO/MOU is, unless I am mistaken, the ATA subsequent to the vote in GP proceeded directly to a DAO position with the Government. As I understand it, a formal proposal was written by Jim Allen and submitted to SRD. Now, correct me if I am wrong, the ATA has backed up a bit (Idon't know if the original proposal was flawed or?) and begun to write up an MOU instead, and I do not know the time frame for submission. I guess some clarification is needed here.

I think there is some worry about not just the financial cost to trappers but the ability to sustain funding with consideration to the World financial meltdown that is still in progress and all sectors tightening their belts. It would be a great catastrophe to get up and running and find out funding for future years is in jeapordy. For myself I would like to see a 5/10 year business plan for funding/expenditures etc. before I would be comfortable proceeding. I'm sure these things have all been considered but I would like to see a formal plan circulated to membership.

I don't feel I was disrespectful to attendees at the AGM in GP. I was there. I don't think my comment of 85% of a small group of trappers voted in favour of the DAO is disrespectful at all. It was a small group considering the total membership and I have heard the comparison used that this is how the people of Alberta elect their MLA's etc. but you usually don't have to drive 3/4 of the way across Alberta to vote for your MLA. Some people just can't make it and I feel they shouldn't be excluded. Also and you can correct me if I am wrong, there used to be proxy voting in years past. One of the older members of our Local told me that, so at this time I can't verify it 100% but for me I would like to see it returned. There are other organizations that have proxy voting such as FNAWS. What is the downside to proxy voting?

Also at this time I would like to bring up the store in Westlock. I sure do thank the anonymous donor for donating over 200K to a new building. This is some kind of generosity considering the shakey financial times we are in. However I understand the ATA has purchased a Commercial lot in Westlock at a real good price and an architech has drawn up the plans and given a cost of around $500,000.00. Boy, I know the present store is in terrible shape and could even be considered a hazard we do need a new facility, but I would question spending that kind of money on a store that as far as I know doesn't make any money. I would like to see a smaller version with no store as an Administration/Education Facility... or rent something. Get out of the supply and fur shipping business....there are plenty of private companies trying to make a go of it already in that business. I don't think we need a two-storey building with an elevator, even if close to half the money has been generously donated.

Anyway, what do I think of the MOU/DAO....not sure yet because I haven't seen a formal plan or timeline. When I see that my decision will be easy. I have never said I was against a DAO.

I hope nobody gets huffy and emotional about my comments. If you can't ask questions and discuss things without causing people to fly off the handle and get defensive it is a sad case.

[bullgetter]

I am still fairly new to the trapping game but try to be involved as possible. I love to trap but if we do not do something and try to protect ourselves I can see trapping in Alberta gone in the next decade.
The vote in GP was to persue and develop a proposal to form a DAO. It may not even happen and a MOU may be the best option. I thank all those who made it to GP to vote. I did not make it myself as I had an archery tournament I helped put on. I respect the outcome of the vote and feel it was fair.
I feel there is a good portion of trappers that wish to stick their heads in the sand and hope this will all blow over. Trappers in Alberta all need to get involved now to maintain there way of life. At our local meetings I call the same membership list every time before a meeting to let them know. The same 10-12 people are the only ones that ever show up. I feel these individuals have a vested interest in keeping trapping in Alberta and want to help in the fight. If the government had there way there would be no traplines, no cabins, no trails, and no pesky trapper to get in there way!
As to the store in Westlock I believe we need it. Alot of our membership joins because of the ability to ship fur from the store. A new building is needed and here in Alberta $500,000 does not get you much. It would be great if they set up a mini museum showing the history of trapping in Alberta and all the furs for the kids. I hope a new building will also show the people of the province that trapping is here in Alberta and here to stay!

Originally Posted by bullgetter

I am still fairly new to the trapping game but try to be involved as possible. I love to trap but if we do not do something and try to protect ourselves I can see trapping in Alberta gone in the next decade.
The vote in GP was to persue and develop a proposal to form a DAO. It may not even happen and a MOU may be the best option. I thank all those who made it to GP to vote. I did not make it myself as I had an archery tournament I helped put on. I respect the outcome of the vote and feel it was fair.
I feel there is a good portion of trappers that wish to stick their heads in the sand and hope this will all blow over. Trappers in Alberta all need to get involved now to maintain there way of life. At our local meetings I call the same membership list every time before a meeting to let them know. The same 10-12 people are the only ones that ever show up. I feel these individuals have a vested interest in keeping trapping in Alberta and want to help in the fight. If the government had there way there would be no traplines, no cabins, no trails, and no pesky trapper to get in there way!
As to the store in Westlock I believe we need it. Alot of our membership joins because of the ability to ship fur from the store. A new building is needed and here in Alberta $500,000 does not get you much. It would be great if they set up a mini museum showing the history of trapping in Alberta and all the furs for the kids. I hope a new building will also show the people of the province that trapping is here in Alberta and here to stay!

Thanks for your response, I hope we will get many more!! As far as protecting ourselves, Bill 201 sure seems a strong message to preserve hunting fishing and trapping for the future. Yes there are alot of appethetic people out there....not only some trappers, most organizations have volunteer problems and attendance problems. Please read Minister Morton's opening blurb in the trapping regulations. It seems to me to be very sincere. I do not believe for a minute that the Govt. wants to completely wipe out the trapping industry in Alberta. I know there is a vision of a brand new building and interpretive centre, and I think that's great, but realizing the economy sucks and recovery may be a long ways away I think we should hold off and like I said before either rent some administrative space or build a smaller version of the proposed building to house administration and education. As for the vote, however the numbers are skewed it does not represent 85% of the ATA membership. If this is what the Govt. is being told then that's just not right. I will find this out shortly. Are First Nations trappers going to be under this DAO? Well I'm off to the trapline to finish off a very sucessful wolf season..I hope there are five pages of responses when I get back!!!

[Brian Bildson]

Red I see where your concerns arise, and they are valid on some points. However if we stick to the DAO and forget about buildings and such ( take it up with the ATA executive would be more productive) perhaps we can make the picture clearer for trappers who are reading this.

Why not scrap the term DAO & MOU for now. Let's talk about the concept behind trapper self management, because at the end of the day that's what this is all abou , regardless of the title.

I agree the present gov. is not anti-trapping, which is why now is the right time to strike this deal. We can enshrine our right to exist as an organization and ensure trapping remains on the landscape by becoming part of the system.

Much has been said about DAO's but I've seen two in action. APOS and the ACA. I haven't spoken to an APOS member who is not supportive. There are some ex members of previous outfitters organizations that complain about APOS, but that's because APOS is in the drivers seat and now has the power. Exactly where the ATA needs to be.

As for the ACA I have another thread going defending it, so I'll just say this. The ACA is unique in North America. Where else do a non government group made up mostly of hunters and anglers get funds to advance conservation. You can complain about how the money is spent but you can't argue that it hasn't been effective in getting funds and being part of the decision making process.

As for funding the DAO it's an non-issue to me. I've done enough, and seen enough, business plans to know this can be easily solved. Yes a trapper will have to pay more and these are tough times for some but I suspect we could all find $500. I''d also be supportive of an extra fee on my license to help fund the license cost for someone who could not afford it.

As for First Nations I believe the door is open. I've had conversations with Treaty 8 reps who tell me their issue is not with the ATA but rather the government. They feel if they align with another organization i.e ATA they may set a precident. They want to deal with the government "nation to nation". I can't fault their reasoning.

Good luck on the wolves

[bullgetter]

Originally Posted by redgreen

Thanks for your response, I hope we will get many more!! As far as protecting ourselves, Bill 201 sure seems a strong message to preserve hunting fishing and trapping for the future. Yes there are alot of appethetic people out there....not only some trappers, most organizations have volunteer problems and attendance problems. Please read Minister Morton's opening blurb in the trapping regulations. It seems to me to be very sincere. I do not believe for a minute that the Govt. wants to completely wipe out the trapping industry in Alberta. I know there is a vision of a brand new building and interpretive centre, and I think that's great, but realizing the economy sucks and recovery may be a long ways away I think we should hold off and like I said before either rent some administrative space or build a smaller version of the proposed building to house administration and education. As for the vote, however the numbers are skewed it does not represent 85% of the ATA membership. If this is what the Govt. is being told then that's just not right. I will find this out shortly. Are First Nations trappers going to be under this DAO? Well I'm off to the trapline to finish off a very sucessful wolf season..I hope there are five pages of responses when I get back!!!

Bill 201 is the best thing this government has done in 20 years! Unfortunately we are still small potatoes in the scheme of things. We need every trapper in Alberta to join the ATA so we have a stronger voice. It is my wish to see every trapper automatically become a member when they buy there licence each year.
As with any club or organization 5% of the members do 95% of the work and we are no different. I was in Halfords this fall and there was 2 trappers talking about the DAO and the vote. Their banter grew into heated complaining of the ATA and the executive. I hope these fellas make it to there locals meetings and vent there opinions there.
I see our executive as a passionate group of people who are willing to put in the time and even there own money into protecting something we all love. I can not find any fault in what they are doing. I'm just glad they are doing something.
Hope you do well on the wolves. I pulled everything mid-February but wish I had something out there to check.

[Brian Bildson]

Anyone who sits on a Board or executive has to have thick skin. However a certain amount of debate is healthy for any organization obviously, but what I detest is "sore losers"

If you make your case, and the others decide to carry on with a different course, suck it up move on. To keep bringing it back to the table is BS. If you have lots of support for your idea you'll carry the day, and someone else will have to move on.

Or even worse keep quiet during all the investigating and discussion on a topic. Ignore your magazines articles about the subject. Don't provide any feedback to your local about the subject. Just complain instead after others have done all the work.

And RedGreen I ain't saying that's you because I don't know you, but I ain't saying it isn't you either.

[packhuntr]

What ever you guys do, dont grenade the store!!! Its a great thing, too bad you dont have a couple more scattered throughout the province. Sorry for barging in like that fellas.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

Red I see where your concerns arise, and they are valid on some points. However if we stick to the DAO and forget about buildings and such ( take it up with the ATA executive would be more productive) perhaps we can make the picture clearer for trappers who are reading this.

Why not scrap the term DAO & MOU for now. Let's talk about the concept behind trapper self management, because at the end of the day that's what this is all abou , regardless of the title.

I agree the present gov. is not anti-trapping, which is why now is the right time to strike this deal. We can enshrine our right to exist as an organization and ensure trapping remains on the landscape by becoming part of the system.

Much has been said about DAO's but I've seen two in action. APOS and the ACA. I haven't spoken to an APOS member who is not supportive. There are some ex members of previous outfitters organizations that complain about APOS, but that's because APOS is in the drivers seat and now has the power. Exactly where the ATA needs to be.

As for the ACA I have another thread going defending it, so I'll just say this. The ACA is unique in North America. Where else do a non government group made up mostly of hunters and anglers get funds to advance conservation. You can complain about how the money is spent but you can't argue that it hasn't been effective in getting funds and being part of the decision making process.

As for funding the DAO it's an non-issue to me. I've done enough, and seen enough, business plans to know this can be easily solved. Yes a trapper will have to pay more and these are tough times for some but I suspect we could all find $500. I''d also be supportive of an extra fee on my license to help fund the license cost for someone who could not afford it.

As for First Nations I believe the door is open. I've had conversations with Treaty 8 reps who tell me their issue is not with the ATA but rather the government. They feel if they align with another organization i.e ATA they may set a precident. They want to deal with the government "nation to nation". I can't fault their reasoning.

Good luck on the wolves

Hi Brian, I just got back from my line and sure was disappointed in the amount of response here, and possible new ideas being bounced around for discussion.

The greater disappointment, however, was reading your response above. You should consider going into politics at some level. In your response there is nothing but generic rhetoric that doesn't clarify or solve any of the points brought up. Please try again.

As for the ACA I think it is a great organization and there are alot of projects etc. accomplished that contribute to outdoor enthusiasts. I truly can't imagine having it dismantled.

As for APOS, it has run somewhat effectively for a period of time but I understand it may be in financial trouble. Again I bring up sustained funding and having a concrete business plan on paper.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

Anyone who sits on a Board or executive has to have thick skin. However a certain amount of debate is healthy for any organization obviously, but what I detest is "sore losers"

If you make your case, and the others decide to carry on with a different course, suck it up move on. To keep bringing it back to the table is BS. If you have lots of support for your idea you'll carry the day, and someone else will have to move on.

Or even worse keep quiet during all the investigating and discussion on a topic. Ignore your magazines articles about the subject. Don't provide any feedback to your local about the subject. Just complain instead after others have done all the work.

And RedGreen I ain't saying that's you because I don't know you, but I ain't saying it isn't you either.

Brian, this must have been written later in the evening. It as well doesn't make any sense and I see a level of somewhat restrained emotion coming out of you that doesn't belong in a discussion and it is very counter-productive.

See you at the next President's meeting!

Originally Posted by packhuntr

What ever you guys do, dont grenade the store!!! Its a great thing, too bad you dont have a couple more scattered throughout the province. Sorry for barging in like that fellas.

Well maybe it will be the next Franchise!! LOL All kidding aside please join in and comment on any of the topics here it is very much welcomed. Just wondered if you were a trapper either resident or non-resident? Even if you are not, or don't have an ATA membership consider getting one. Also consider coming to the ATA AGM, trade show and banquet...there will be displays, demonstartions etc.that would also be of interest to other outdoor enthusiates!! There is a sticky with just the basic details on this trapping forum.

[Brent Watson]

Just some general info first. Am a junior partner on a line SW of Grande Prairie. Have been involved in organizations for 30 years (AFGA, Alberta Bowhunters Assoc, ATA - member of a whole pile more) not only as a member but in an executive role in various capacities. I am currently in my fourth year as president of the ABA and will serve 2 more.
I attended the trappers convention last year in GP both as a member concerned about where trapping is and was headed. I also came as ABA President and we had our booth at the trade show. SUPER convention by the way!!
I have a real problem with how a lot of things play out - from being an active player in many issues - both as ABA president and as a general member. Far too often the most complaining comes from those who have done the least research in the issue at hand. They can relate many coffee shop/bar/back room details but very little of the real facts. They get their buddies all fired up with their interpretations which just get farther from the truth as things move along.
As an executive member I guess it is our job to try and educate these people to the truthes - but when they don't listen, don't take the time to at least get the facts themselves, etc it is hard to make any headway at all. When they feel like the executive/organization is not agreeing with their interpretation/viewpoint, then it is the group who is wrong, has an agenda, selfish, not listening to their members, etc.
If anyone has a problem with how things are done, there are annual elections every year at the local and provincial level. Build your case and run. Get involved. Make a difference.
I have had the privelage of working with many of the ATA exec in my role as ABA President and it is very evident to me that these people ARE working for the betterment of trapping in Alberta. We were so very close to having trapping changed forever but now we can look forward to a brighter future - only through the hard, unselfish work of a few people. The powers that be in government are on our side - for now. We have a Minister who is very in tune with hunting and trapping. This is a rarety!! We have senior people who also hunt and trap and understand what we are all about. BUT -- the political landscape is changing and it is changing fast. Many of these people will not be around in the next few years -- they will be retiring. Many of the new people coming into these positions DO NOT hunt or trap. A new minister may know nothing about trapping -- like many before Mr. Morton. We have a Parks ministry whose mandate seems to be to "preserve, protect" and does NOT include hunting and trapping in it's vision. It has the support of a lot of other key government people. We are on thin ice. The timing is right for us as trappers to have a hand in our own destiny - we have a chance to help ourselves. If we don't seize the moment we are done!!
There has been a lot made of (whining in my mind) the vote in GP that saw 85% of the attendees vote in favor of moving ahead with the DAO. Lots saying it doesn't represent the total membership, doesn't represent the total trappers views. REMEMBER - the world is run by those who show up!! There was enough info circulated that should have at least made trappers think that they should come and see what this issue was really about, that things are serious enough that they need now to take a more active interest in what is going on, with something that is a passion to them. You will NEVER get 100% of any group, of any interest to come to anyhting or even get involved enough to make an "informed" decision. I would love if all the 1100 members of the ABA would show up to our AGM and help the rest of us fight some of these battles. I would love if the 15000 bowhunters of Alberta would join the ABA and strengthen our position with government and the antis. It is no different with any other organization. The governments of the world recognize these different groups because they have done a great job in the past in representing the majority of their members, the majority of their interest group. The system would be in utter kaos if we didn't and just had a bunch of individuals showing up to a meeting yelling about something that they had no information/facts on. Happens too much as it is.
I will rely on those people who I have elected into position to make the decisions they feel is right for me and the organziation, for the future of my passion (be it bowhunting or trapping). If I think they are not right I will make my case - based on research and fact. If I don't think they are doing a good enough job, I'll run on my own platform against them. But I will NOT bad mouth them or the group because of my own ignorance on something. I WILL encourage everyone to get the facts, try and understand the BIG PICTURE here. The days where we could just go to the bush and forget about the rest of the world are over. We (as outdoor users in general) have to become a more active player or we are in huge trouble!!

Originally Posted by Brent Watson

Just some general info first. Am a junior partner on a line SW of Grande Prairie. Have been involved in organizations for 30 years (AFGA, Alberta Bowhunters Assoc, ATA - member of a whole pile more) not only as a member but in an executive role in various capacities. I am currently in my fourth year as president of the ABA and will serve 2 more.
I attended the trappers convention last year in GP both as a member concerned about where trapping is and was headed. I also came as ABA President and we had our booth at the trade show. SUPER convention by the way!!
I have a real problem with how a lot of things play out - from being an active player in many issues - both as ABA president and as a general member. Far too often the most complaining comes from those who have done the least research in the issue at hand. They can relate many coffee shop/bar/back room details but very little of the real facts. They get their buddies all fired up with their interpretations which just get farther from the truth as things move along.
As an executive member I guess it is our job to try and educate these people to the truthes - but when they don't listen, don't take the time to at least get the facts themselves, etc it is hard to make any headway at all. When they feel like the executive/organization is not agreeing with their interpretation/viewpoint, then it is the group who is wrong, has an agenda, selfish, not listening to their members, etc.
If anyone has a problem with how things are done, there are annual elections every year at the local and provincial level. Build your case and run. Get involved. Make a difference.
I have had the privelage of working with many of the ATA exec in my role as ABA President and it is very evident to me that these people ARE working for the betterment of trapping in Alberta. We were so very close to having trapping changed forever but now we can look forward to a brighter future - only through the hard, unselfish work of a few people. The powers that be in government are on our side - for now. We have a Minister who is very in tune with hunting and trapping. This is a rarety!! We have senior people who also hunt and trap and understand what we are all about. BUT -- the political landscape is changing and it is changing fast. Many of these people will not be around in the next few years -- they will be retiring. Many of the new people coming into these positions DO NOT hunt or trap. A new minister may know nothing about trapping -- like many before Mr. Morton. We have a Parks ministry whose mandate seems to be to "preserve, protect" and does NOT include hunting and trapping in it's vision. It has the support of a lot of other key government people. We are on thin ice. The timing is right for us as trappers to have a hand in our own destiny - we have a chance to help ourselves. If we don't seize the moment we are done!!
There has been a lot made of (whining in my mind) the vote in GP that saw 85% of the attendees vote in favor of moving ahead with the DAO. Lots saying it doesn't represent the total membership, doesn't represent the total trappers views. REMEMBER - the world is run by those who show up!! There was enough info circulated that should have at least made trappers think that they should come and see what this issue was really about, that things are serious enough that they need now to take a more active interest in what is going on, with something that is a passion to them. You will NEVER get 100% of any group, of any interest to come to anyhting or even get involved enough to make an "informed" decision. I would love if all the 1100 members of the ABA would show up to our AGM and help the rest of us fight some of these battles. I would love if the 15000 bowhunters of Alberta would join the ABA and strengthen our position with government and the antis. It is no different with any other organization. The governments of the world recognize these different groups because they have done a great job in the past in representing the majority of their members, the majority of their interest group. The system would be in utter kaos if we didn't and just had a bunch of individuals showing up to a meeting yelling about something that they had no information/facts on. Happens too much as it is.
I will rely on those people who I have elected into position to make the decisions they feel is right for me and the organziation, for the future of my passion (be it bowhunting or trapping). If I think they are not right I will make my case - based on research and fact. If I don't think they are doing a good enough job, I'll run on my own platform against them. But I will NOT bad mouth them or the group because of my own ignorance on something. I WILL encourage everyone to get the facts, try and understand the BIG PICTURE here. The days where we could just go to the bush and forget about the rest of the world are over. We (as outdoor users in general) have to become a more active player or we are in huge trouble!!

It seems that any question posed in regard to the ATA is met with a very strong defensive, dramatic response. I sure isn't what I expected. Not a very good sign of transparency. I would really like to have a better showing in the voting through proxy votes and after I asked the question "what is the downside to a proxy vote?" there has been no respondent give a reason. As stated before this is done with other outdoor organizations why not us?? The ATA executive certainly has worked tirelessly in the direction of preserving Trappers rights and I applaud them for it. But as you have been extensively involved with many orgs. on an executive level, I hope you would agree that ANY
executive should not have "carte blanche" to do what ever they want without proper membership consultation. In this case it's even easier because we have Locals set up. I set this thread and my subsequent replys not to be branded a complainer or being a sh*t disturber. I want the best percentage of membership informed on the direction we are going. Skip the defensive attitude!!! I would like to see a respondent answer some of the questions posed and quit being dramatic. I am asking for a definitive plan for the self-governing...(ie. each local should have a copy of what was submitted to SRD) ...haven't seen one...and the tact has changed already, from directly to a DAO to now an MOU...haven't seen anything about that yet either (again each local should have a copy of what has been submitted to inform membership)....aren't these things important to communicate to membership? I think so...it's all our future. I am not building any case here...I WANT THE MEMBERSHIP WELL INFORMED which I feel they are not. I have had numerous calls from Trappers saying holy cow did you hear we're all going to lose our traplines!!! Well that certainly is lack of communication wouldn't you think? I hope this April's Presidents meeting will flush out some of the answers to the questions I have posed, it doesn't seem to be happening here.

[FastElk]

Firstly, I am a member of the Alberta Trappers Association and have been for more than 5 years
Secondly, I attended the AGM in Grande Prarie
because of these two things I feel that I should put in a comment
Redgreen, I applaude you, thank you for speaking up for so many. How are we going to open the eyes of those who cannot see as to what is going on before them? why don't we have a proxy vote? It's because it was taken from us in closed door meetings without our knowledge or consent. We may be partly to blame for not attending every AGM in the last 5 years and letting our executive do whatever they pleased, but I would have known if it had been put to the membership. As for other important decisions, such as going from the DAO to the MOU we should be in on these decisions,

There was not enough information circulated to give trappers a chance to make an informed decision at GP, even now most everything is a BIG secret, our executives don't even have enough information to answer questions they are asked

[FastElk]

Originally Posted by redgreen

Hi Brian, I just got back from my line and sure was disappointed in the amount of response here, and possible new ideas being bounced around for discussion.

The greater disappointment, however, was reading your response above. You should consider going into politics at some level. In your response there is nothing but generic rhetoric that doesn't clarify or solve any of the points brought up. Please try again.

As for the ACA I think it is a great organization and there are alot of projects etc. accomplished that contribute to outdoor enthusiasts. I truly can't imagine having it dismantled.

As for APOS, it has run somewhat effectively for a period of time but I understand it may be in financial trouble. Again I bring up sustained funding and having a concrete business plan on paper.

why on earth would we want to pay $500.00 or more a year to fix something that isn't broken?

[fjhoward]

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?

[FastElk]

Originally Posted by fjhoward

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?

Please explain to me in detail which parts are broken? what is a DAO or MOU going to offer me that I don't already have?

[sourdough doug]

Originally Posted by FastElk

why on earth would we want to pay $500.00 or more a year to fix something that isn't broken?

I see that you picked up on the $ figures, that are already starting to escalate. There is no longer the "funding" available as was announced with great ceremony, if I recall correctly. The calculations that we came up with could run up to 3X the original numbers quoted. OK, now you do the math. My line being what it is, has seen years where my gross take would not cover what I might be expecting to pay on an ANNUAL basis. My line has in one form or another been decimated and the figures aren't there. I don't have the 75 martin laying in the freezer, awaiting better times as has been posted by one of the above contributors. It might take me 5 years to do that, so as not to overharvest. It is not only me that has to live with reality in this real world as we see it today. There are a large number of guys and gals too, in the same situation.
As Fast Elk also mentioned - Where is it broken ? I see Chicken Little running around screaming and hollering that the f---- sky is falling, just because a couple of gov't people, prob. not even backbenchers, got to talking . The bill that was passed gave us the protection we need from chicken little and others who want to create a legacy.

[Brian Bildson]

RedGreen - Night or day, I meant what I said. However you're the only one who knows if what I said applies to you. I stand by my comment.

Back on topic. I'm not on the ATA executive so any thoughts expressed here are mine. The problem with proxy votes is that they do not always represent the informed vote of a member. When a member makes a vote in person at an AGM they have sat through the discussion and debate on the topic. They're presented with the latest facts and ideas from both sides of the debate. Have you ever gone to a meeting without an opinion on a subject, but voted on that same topic after the group discussion?

However proxy votes are perfect for special interest folks within a group to advance their agenda just by circulating their version of the facts. Just head on down to the next local meeting and preach the message and get the boys signed up. Let's face it most members of any organization aren't fascinated with the running of it so if someone they know wants them to sign something, why not.

As for the DAO info not being circulated to the membership I have a hard time buying that. I saw plenty of info and both my email and phone work real good so no reason I couldn't give my ATA executive a call.

However if you want my opinion about running a big deficit at the ATA that's another topic. I do not believe in incurring debt unless a strong business case can be made for it. Having said that you're not being fair to the present executive, correct me but aren't they the ones who got the ATA out of previous debt?

I believe our executive will finalize a memorandoum of understanding with
(MOU) ASRD that will ease our way towards a DAO. They will set a budget that is do-able and we will take small steps towards more self government. This process will take years.

And for those who think that trapping as we practice it today in Alberta is guaranteed, you might want to revisit the LUF. There's enough ammunition in there to change trapping as we know it. I want a strong organization like the ATA to represent my interests.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

RedGreen - Night or day, I meant what I said. However you're the only one who knows if what I said applies to you. I stand by my comment.





Back on topic. I'm not on the ATA executive so any thoughts expressed here are mine. The problem with proxy votes is that they do not always represent the informed vote of a member. When a member makes a vote in person at an AGM they have sat through the discussion and debate on the topic. They're presented with the latest facts and ideas from both sides of the debate. Have you ever gone to a meeting without an opinion on a subject, but voted on that same topic after the group discussion?

If an Association distributes and KEEPS the membership informed properly, an informed decision can be made by proxy..it seems to be working for other organizations. This magnitude of an issue (DAO/MOU) is too large for just a small portion of the membership to be voting on.


However proxy votes are perfect for special interest folks within a group to advance their agenda just by circulating their version of the facts. Just head on down to the next local meeting and preach the message and get the boys signed up. Let's face it most members of any organization aren't fascinated with the running of it so if someone they know wants them to sign something, why not.


In GP we had to produce our trapping licence as well as our ATA membership. Spouses were no exception which is another issue to be discussed. So if the criteria in voting were to remain the same I see no opportunity for special interest groups to infiltrate our Association. You have no point here at all.


As for the DAO info not being circulated to the membership I have a hard time buying that. I saw plenty of info and both my email and phone work real good so no reason I couldn't give my ATA executive a call.

Please outline what what circulated? There was a general viewpoint from a few of the executives and directors in our magazine, but never did I see a plan, or a copy of the submission to SRD, or correspondence to SRD.


However if you want my opinion about running a big deficit at the ATA that's another topic. I do not believe in incurring debt unless a strong business case can be made for it. Having said that you're not being fair to the present executive, correct me but aren't they the ones who got the ATA out of previous debt?

Again, I think the locals should be getting copies of proposals for large expenditures such as the new proposed building etc.. Again let's see the business plan circulated...wouldn't that make you feel much more comfort in proceeding?


I believe our executive will finalize a memorandoum of understanding with
(MOU) ASRD that will ease our way towards a DAO. They will set a budget that is do-able and we will take small steps towards more self government. This process will take years.

Like you have said before maybe the next Govt. formed won't be trappers or understand...with one stroke of a pen the MOU could be gone. I know it may not happen but it is possible. So what do you think of Bill 201?
And for those who think that trapping as we practice it today in Alberta is guaranteed, you might want to revisit the LUF. There's enough ammunition in there to change trapping as we know it. I want a strong organization like the ATA to represent my interests.

Gordy assued me that the Trappers would be one of the few not affected by the LUF and I know he has been working hard on getting this done.

I see that Jim M has sent out a newletter for the month with two informational attachments regarding the MOU and the LUF. I look forward to reading them. It is nice to see some communication has occurred.

[Brian Bildson]

Damn Red if you keep advancing reasonable arguments how am I supposed to change your mind? I don't think we're that far apart, we're just looking from different directions. I'm prepared to talk one on one via phone and I suspect you have my number. I'd welcome your call. I also will respond to more of your points above but I'm gearing up to head to FNAWS in Red Deer and then ACA so it'll be over the next few days.

It's obvious you're a member of the Sundry Local so I have a question for you. What exactly is your local's position on the ATA? Over the years I kept hearing as a member about this on and off local down in Sundry. I really don't know any of the facts about your local, so is this true?

I'm looking forward to talking one on one with your Sundry members at the convention.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

Damn Red if you keep advancing reasonable arguments how am I supposed to change your mind? I don't think we're that far apart, we're just looking from different directions. I'm prepared to talk one on one via phone and I suspect you have my number. I'd welcome your call. I also will respond to more of your points above but I'm gearing up to head to FNAWS in Red Deer and then ACA so it'll be over the next few days.

It's not at all about "changing my mind"....it is about being transparent and communicating to membership. I will be very pleased when members are being informed in a proper manner.


It's obvious you're a member of the Sundry Local so I have a question for you. What exactly is your local's position on the ATA? Over the years I kept hearing as a member about this on and off local down in Sundry.

I don't understand what do you mean by an "off and on Local"?

I really don't know any of the facts about your local, so is this true?

Sorry Brian if "WHAT" is true?

I'm looking forward to talking one on one with your Sundry members at the convention.

The Sundre hosted Convention will be a great event and I am sure everyone will have a grand time. I attended the Rocky local meeting last night and I am not sure if members know but they are assisting us in putting on the Convention, and are putting much effort into the Special Events portion of the Convention, as well as working with us on the wolf incentive program, resolutions etc... If any other Locals would like to get involved in any manner for the Convention such as items for the silent or live auction please pm me. The Grande Prairie Local has generously donated $1500.00 to assist putting the Convention on.

[FastElk]

Is there no one out there that can tell me how a DAO or a MOU is going to benefit me or any other average trapper,
Also can anyone tell me when guided trapline tours became legal?

Originally Posted by fjhoward

I think that is the point. It is broken and if we don't do something we will lose it all quite likely after another provicial election. Staying the way it is isn't an option. Of course we could just bury our heads in the sand and hope for the best! I guess that could be called an option?

I sure would like you to respond to Fast Elk's query...don't just put some generic thoughts in without some backup!!:rolleye2:

Originally Posted by FastElk

Is there no one out there that can tell me how a DAO or a MOU is going to benefit me or any other average trapper,
Also can anyone tell me when guided trapline tours became legal?

Judging by the way some ATA members up the ladder are picking up traplines, I don't know if trapline adventures are legal or how that works but it is happening and there must be some money and a future in it!!!

[sourdough doug]

Originally Posted by redgreen

Judging by the way some ATA executive are picking up traplines I don't know if trapline adventures are legal but there must be some money and a future in it!!

I'm still trying to figure if what you said was with tongue in cheek or not. Regardless, this is an issue, whether legal or not, was considered to be an unethical practice, leastwise by those of ethics. It was discussed by past executives and at AGMs but certain individuals were doing this inspite of what the ATA considered to be correct. This matter ,of late, appears to have taken a change in direction, as is evident by the truth in what you said and is beginning to take on the shape of --No I better not say-- but there is space between the lines to read in anything you like, just as those are doing with their "ventures" I'm sure there are several others on the short list for some of those "Phantom lines". What is that saying about --Absolute power...

[northerntrapper]

Okay, now I'm compelled to add to this thread. As a registered trapper, I don't see any benefit to paying $500 (or more) per year to renew my right to trap. Especially since no one can explain the benefits of a DAO to me in simple, layman's terms. Enough of the politician double talk. The pro DAO people can now get off the fence and lay it out. Is this new DAO thing a scheme for those who want to do trapline excursions in addition to trapping? What is the REAL agenda? This is one trapper who is opposed to the DAO, because quite frankly, I don't know what it entails other than costing me a lot of money. My favorite motto is;
"when in doubt, throw it out"