New member and a note on poaching

[alodar]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

This thread is USELESS without pics of BBJ in his speedos!

I think u mean camo thong lol

[TyreeUM]

Originally Posted by alodar

I think u mean camo thong lol

good work, you just killed this thread...

[alodar]

Originally Posted by TyreeUM

good work, you just killed this thread...

Thanks i try

[TyreeUM]

haha...

BeeGuy - start another thread about something useful - but add in a tiny remark at the end that we can go on 300 posts about

[alodar]

On my way back from wabamun not a bad evening in all quite a few small pike

[horsetrader]

Whole crap just got caught up and it's time for bed got to start putting the laptop in the truck....

[bowness]

I am really impressed with this thread. Great dialoguue lacking the often misleading diatribes that lead us off into other issues. Un "BEE" lievable. (sorry couldent help myself.)

Now for my rant:

I often get frustrated that many Canadian laws do not apply to all inhabitants of Canada. The "first here" philosophy and the extra rights associated seem to be racist in themselves. Using racist laws to make up for the past injustices seems to be counter productive. Atleast it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. From my experience just because you were here first doesnt mean you are closer to nature or have less of a tendancy to exploit resources. The difference is you can exploit them and get Canadian tax dollars to support it. The icing on the cake is Canadians have no legal right to stop it.

[gl2]

Originally Posted by hal53

maybe re-read the post and you may be able to figure out where it went over your head....

wow, that went right over my head. must have been a bad day for me. sorry for stupid response.

[Braun]

Originally Posted by Tosh

wow, that went right over my head. must have been a bad day for me. sorry for stupid response.

lol. a bit of a delay response eh tosh? if thats where you are you have alot of reading to do

[gl2]

Originally Posted by Braun

lol. a bit of a delay response eh tosh? if thats where you are you have alot of reading to do

it almost killed me reading this whole thread. lol

[Braun]

Originally Posted by bowness

I am really impressed with this thread. Great dialoguue lacking the often misleading diatribes that lead us off into other issues. Un "BEE" lievable. (sorry couldent help myself.)

Now for my rant:

I often get frustrated that many Canadian laws do not apply to all inhabitants of Canada. The "first here" philosophy and the extra rights associated seem to be racist in themselves. Using racist laws to make up for the past injustices seems to be counter productive. Atleast it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. From my experience just because you were here first doesnt mean you are closer to nature or have less of a tendancy to exploit resources. The difference is you can exploit them and get Canadian tax dollars to support it. The icing on the cake is Canadians have no legal right to stop it.

NICE!!!! this post right here should guarentee us atleast another 100 posts on this thread.


If you are talking about the rights and privileges afforded to the native populous then i agree x100. I am not a racist nor do i have a stigma against any individual race. But this often is a sore spot for me. one common misunderstanding is that if a individual with a status card is fishing with a line and pole, they are considered sport fishing and must abide by sportfishing regulations. If they net, trap, spear, whatever...... they are exempt from all fishing laws including catch limits, seasonal closures, ect.

Im sorry but it is getting to the point where this is ridiculous. I know you can't just run up and strip all there privileges to nothing. but there is alot of government funding going to people of native status. and In my opinion, alot of that funding is abused. I know some Native status individuals who have struck out and have tried to do something with what they are given and become self supporting and successful just as every other individual tries. But for every one that does this there seems to be dozens that adopt the mindset that, if they are offering this to us why wouldnt we take it. I actually know a couple cases of half blood relatives of close friends purposefully had kids so they can get subsidized housing with their status cards and not have to work because of the kids. I also know some native status people who understand and agree with alot of the negative stereotypes of native status people. They don't condone it but understand why people believe certain things..... because more often than not they are proven true. this is a whole other political topic so I will stop it right here and get back to fishing. My point is that no not all native status people abuse the system. but alot do, in my opinion.

in terms of fishing, we have catch limits and seasonal closures in order to Recouperate and help ecosystems survive. This is mostly do to mass fishing pressure. We close waters to protect spawning fish. we have limits to protect population. What good are these actions if it is not close to EVERYONE. Like I said you can't just take rights like these away. they do have to be phased out over time. but a step in the right direction is making them have to obey seasonal closures. and certain limits for certain species / waters. they can still net / trap / spear fish IN SEASON and protect spawners. the next step would be to make them apply for netting / trapping in certain waters.


those would be steps in the right direction. Politically, i do have a belief that things eventually do need to be changed. we cannot uphold the agreement with the "first here" laws that are in place for several reasons.
1. abuse of the system
2. Times have changed and so eventually do our laws in order to look out for the greater good of our resources
3. things just arn`t as cut and dry as they were when I could trade 10 fish for 1 fur pelt.

[Braun]

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

[alodar]

Originally Posted by Braun

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

X2

[chubbdarter]

do they use mini vans too?

[Braun]

only when fishing for burbot

[Lefty-Canuck]

or shooting up heroin....in a safe shooting area....

Lefty

[boot]

Originally Posted by Braun

all im saying is that there needs to eventually be a little give and take between the government and the native tribes. There has to be a common ground that can be reached where we are looking out for the best interests for not only people, but the environment.

The give and take is happening and both parties are trying to find some common ground. Like it or not, natives have special rights according to Canadian law. It's funny how you whine about how I come off sounding as if I'm some sort of expert and then you come up with paragraph after paragraph and finally this... "give and take"? Best interests of people and environment?

Natives in our country are a broken people. There's only 1 reason for their brokenness (please do not tell me it's genetic!!). You talk about natives as if they're priveleged... priveleged?!? WTF?!?

Braun, I've never called you a racist (because I don't think you are one), but you don't have the compassion nor the clarity of thought to truly understand the problems. Then again, maybe we all just need thicker skin... that'll solve everything.

Looks like this thread is never going to die.

[chubbdarter]

I should be made a MODERATOR

[Lefty-Canuck]

.....apparently some people bring napalm to arm wrestling matches.....

Lefty

[Braun]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

I should be made a MODERATOR

you would be the worst moderator ever. your punishments would be horrid music videos and threads would never be closed.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Braun

you would be the worst moderator ever. your punishments would be horrid music videos and threads would never be closed.

you spent to much time with Stang....you only see the negative in life.....the sun is shining...its a beautifull day and the fish bit good

you need a tune up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F01aLeErvoU

[Braun]

Originally Posted by boot

The give and take is happening and both parties are trying to find some common ground. Like it or not, natives have special rights according to Canadian law. It's funny how you whine about how I come off sounding as if I'm some sort of expert and then you come up with paragraph after paragraph and finally this... "give and take"? Best interests of people and environment?

Natives in our country are a broken people. There's only 1 reason for their brokenness (please do not tell me it's genetic!!). You talk about natives as if they're priveleged... priveleged?!? WTF?!?

Braun, I've never called you a racist (because I don't think you are one), but you don't have the compassion nor the clarity of thought to truly understand the problems. Then again, maybe we all just need thicker skin... that'll solve everything.

Looks like this thread is never going to die.

I think the give and take statement part went over your head a little. I mean give and take in terms of CHANGING some of the current laws. No I was not coming off as an expert, unlike your posts. Following almost every statement I made in my post I made sure to clearly state that this was in my opinion. which does 2 things. legally This forum, anyone on this forum including myself is protected from misinterpretation and any legal consequences resulting from the misinterpretation of my statement. 2. is to imply that it is not of an expert, scientific, or any other opinion and by no means a statement of fact.... just an individual opinion. Furthermore, the examples I gave are personal accounts with people around me and in no way an accusation, generalization, or a stereotype of the native race.

However, nice try trying to call me out and turn me into a "bad guy". Unfortunately the part of me that loves debating is engaging in this pointless discussion with you although I know you are only going to listen to things that prove you right instead of considering the arguments I present. This is also apparent by you inaccurately throwing comments I made to you back at me (thicker skin, etc.).

You say natives in the country are broken. Yet we provide tax breaks, free education and *post secondary education*. Free counselling services to help them find the right track. Free lawyer services to help them when they so need it. Subsidized housing. Land to build houses. The list can go on.

For decades we as tax payers have been providing the means for native peoples to help themselves (can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink). As previously stated, some actually use these means to do well for themselves. however some attempt to abuse the system. you can find individuals in every race where this can be explained. However, in my experience in talking to some first nations people, this is quite often abused. In no way do I believe it is genetic. However, I believe there is a major cultural distortion in play. In conversation with the mentioned first nations people, He himself says that the reservations, quite often, are the world place for a native individual to be because of the cultural attitude is easy to be sucked in. He went on to provide me vivid example of some of the actions he witnesses on a regular basis and stated that that is the reason he chooses to live in the city and for a period of time chose to live in the drop in center in calgary when he could have lived in housing on the reservation.

Also I clearly stated the government should not take away all programs designed to help native status individuals. I had said I believe it is time that certain programs should be rethought to eliminate abuse of the system. I think the post secondary education, education, housing programs are all invaluable. Heck, I would not have met the gentlemen I had the above mentioned conversation with if it wern't for those programs. They truly are great. However, I believe that changes could be made to make these programs more effective, and also defend them against abuse by those who would choose to abuse them. Additionally, I believe some changes could be made to align the interests of the entire population of this nation as well as native status individuals.

If one were to apply the "here first" policy to other aspects of life it just wouldn't work. I got my drivers licence when I was 18. therfore I should pay the price of what it cost for gas at that time for the rest of my life. Or when I first started fishing as a kid, I was allowed to keep 2 bulltrout in my favorite waterway. I should be allowed to do that and the changes should only be applied to those who come after me. It just doesn't work. Political, societal, and economical changes force changes in our laws, rights and privileges. not one single nationality or race should be completely exempt to these changes. What happens if the world were to start running out of food. "as long as we have enough to feed the first nations first". Sorry. Not that I am insensitive as you claim me to be, It is just not "fair" in my opinion. And Because I can guess what you will say in rebuttle..... you will disregard everything I say except the word "fair" and then list " is it fair that we take all their land, drive them from their homes, ect." Lets just cut the BS right now. That was hundreds of years ago. It is unfortunate. And no it wasn't fair. But today is today and not hundreds of years ago. We still have several great programs to help these people. If we met on the river and you shot me dead. Would you think it logical that your great grandchildren Must pay for my great grandchildren to goto college even if they lived in harmony on the same street in the same neighborhood? I highly doubt it.


oh and by the way. you are definitely the first person to claim I have a lack of compassion...... whatever you need to say to make yourself feel better bud.

[Braun]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

you spent to much time with Stang....you only see the negative in life.....the sun is shining...its a beautifull day and the fish bit good

you need a tune up?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F01aLeErvoU

lol. so eagle was good. you confused me so much about that post. How was the water? clear? Dirty? smelly? Fresh?

[Braun]

Originally Posted by Braun

For decades we as tax payers have been providing the means for native peoples to help themselves (can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink). As previously stated, some actually use these means to do well for themselves. however some attempt to abuse the system. you can find individuals in every race where this can be explained. However, in my experience in talking to some first nations people, this is quite often abused. In no way do I believe it is genetic. However, I believe there is a major cultural distortion in play. In conversation with the mentioned first nations people, He himself says that the reservations, quite often, are the world place for a native individual to be because of the cultural attitude is easy to be sucked in. He went on to provide me vivid example of some of the actions he witnesses on a regular basis and stated that that is the reason he chooses to live in the city and for a period of time chose to live in the drop in center in calgary when he could have lived in housing on the reservation.

I should state for clarification to ensure no mis-interpretation of my "lack of compassion". I am a very firm believer of helping society out and helping out individuals. Be it past wrong doing of a country against a native population, a drug / alcohol addict, or a person who just made some mistakes. However, I am also a firm believer that said assistance should be warranted through the actions of the individual. I also speak this as a person who is dealing with the outfall of poor decisions. I would not expect anyone to be willing to help me if I had no desire to help myself. I also deal with individuals on occasion (family members) with alcohol addictions. If they do not want to help themselves, Then my help is wasted and would be better suited for someone who does want to help themselves. Otherwise its just another hand out to support abuse. In my opinion this should be a world wide standard. Unfortunately, some individuals believe that because they are hard up, others should jump to help them up so they can be back to their own selves. I believe this has more to do with a change in social responsibility within a culture. People make mistakes. People need help. But if they dont want to use that help to better themselves, their situation, or their community. then there are better uses of that help.

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Braun

lol. so eagle was good. you confused me so much about that post. How was the water? clear? Dirty? smelly? Fresh?

way cleaner than the Bow will ever be

Braun you need to come fish with us.....we never stop laughing...it will do you good

[bessiedog]

sorry.. just a quick 2 cents w/out doing all the other 10 pages of readings...

Braun, you last 'first gets best' argument is correct, but thats not really why they have the rights thatthey have.

Treaty means contract, and they have signed a contract, and we put no deadline on the contract, and no one wants to rip up contracts b/c its an imporant ruleof law thing for all of us to respect and maintain.

There's lots of unfair contracts that everyone knows about:

-i hate my rogers cell phone contract
- All of Edmonton hated the contract Pocklington signed w/Gretzky back in the day
- 58% of people really regret the marriage contract theysigned when she was slim, beautiful, and agreeable.

The Go'vt of Canada signed several contracts for huge chunks of land (google the treaty 7 territory)... and put in an expiry date of 'so long as the sun shines and the rivers flow (or some such silliness).

No govt in their right mind will break that contract. Nor re-negotiate.

the way i see it is they get the odd free fish and critter binge, ...
we get alberta.


good trade if you ask me.

[Braun]

Originally Posted by chubbdarter

way cleaner than the Bow will ever be

Braun you need to come fish with us.....we never stop laughing...it will do you good

agreed, I do need to. But you seem to go fishing during the days lots. Unfortunately I work monday - friday. lol. If you make a suturday or sunday trip to travers ever, I will drop anything im doing pretty much to come. lol. I still want to map out that lake

[Daceminnow]

Originally Posted by Tosh

it almost killed me reading this whole thread. lol

i keep checkin back looking for the coles notes.......no luck yet. now brauns posting full page articles. no light at the end of the tunnel. round and round and round........

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Braun

If one were to apply the "here first" policy to other aspects of life it just wouldn't work. I got my drivers licence when I was 18. therfore I should pay the price of what it cost for gas at that time for the rest of my life. Or when I first started fishing as a kid, I was allowed to keep 2 bulltrout in my favorite waterway. I should be allowed to do that and the changes should only be applied to those who come after me. It just doesn't work. Political, societal, and economical changes force changes in our laws, rights and privileges. not one single nationality or race should be completely exempt to these changes. .

That makes a lot of sense. Times and circumstances do change and call for different solutions. But consider it as a native might. Here's an example that has some of the elements they would consider important. You make a deal to sell your call to someone. You accept payment over a long period of time. At some point the buyer comes to you and says "Look, times have changed. This isn't working for me. I'm gonna keep the car, but I'm only going to pay you half of what I said I would." I don't think any of us would say "yeah, OK".

Maybe things do need to change, but this is where the give and take, some negotiation, comes in. It can't be just "You give up your position, we will take". Note I'm only talking about treaty rights, basically the "signed deal". You live up to your commitments, or you negotiate new ones. That's how the world works. I'm much less sympathetic to other assumed or claimed rights where there was never any clear deal (ie. Metis hunting rights as the MNA would interprete them)..

Anyway, interesting that a thread that started out a little rightous and bombastic has survived so long and, on this page at least, seems both humourous and thoughtful. I'm actually scared to wade into some of the previous pages to see wht went on before I got here! LOL

[chubbdarter]

Originally Posted by Braun

agreed, I do need to. But you seem to go fishing during the days lots. Unfortunately I work monday - friday. lol. If you make a suturday or sunday trip to travers ever, I will drop anything im doing pretty much to come. lol. I still want to map out that lake

i cant send he pdf or what ever its called till puddles works on my puter