Outfitter allocations

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by BearnDown

Nobody ever said it can't be restricted. Theres already very clear laws in place regarding Outfitting, and its been made clear that Outfitter allocations are adjusted on a regular basis.




Do you have a "dream hunt" somewhere in the world? Colorado Elk Hunt? Yukon Moose Hunt? Alaskan Brown Bear Hunt? African Safari? Vancouver Island Cave Bear Hunt? What if that particular territory removed the privilidge of hunting their grounds?



Dude, I've hunted all over this province, every corner. I live in the south (Calgary) and hunt some areas that are very popular with Guides/Outfitters and also for Non-Resident Hunters that hunt without a guide, and Non-Resident Aliens that hunt without a guide. I've never once had a problem getting the animal (or birds) I'm after because of the efforts of an Outfitter in an area. I'm sure I've been denied access because an Outfitter is using Private Land... he got there first and got a better grade on his homework than I did. C'est Le Vie! It seems to me the only resident hunters that will ever be negativley effected by an Outfitters use of private land are those that don't do their homework, the guys that show up opening day (or the day before) and ask for permission, then get ****y when the landowner tells them an Outfitter is hunting it. The Outfitter probably showed up in June or July to speak the landowner, he's doing HIS JOB. If you want to hunt the same quality of land as he does DO YOURS.

Yes there are back door deals that go on, I don't know of any personally, but I can imagine like any other industry there will be those that break the rules, when they're caught they should be dealt with accordingly.–



Why? The next thing will be some wanting to restrict how early we can get in there to start scouting...gotta make it fair for everybody right? Theres nothing wrong with the system we have, its not broke, don't fix it.



Its never been anybodys but ours. Theres entirley too many lazy hunters out there that blame their lack of success on anybody but themselves. If you didn't get your 150 Whitetail this year, don't blame it on an American that did. Theres lots of deer, lots of birds, lots of Elk and lots of land for us all to hunt, you just gotta get out there and get it!

Great statement Bearn Down. Well said.

[nube]

X2 couldn't say it better than that myself. I know for me that if I want to hunt something and be successfull I could do it with a general tag every year. All it takes is some time, skill and a little positive attitude and dedication to what you are trying to do. I keep hearing the complaints of guys waiting 9 years for a moose draw. Why wait go buy a general tag and go kill one. I've done it. Ya it was not fun driving the distance I did but that yearly trip was a blast and very successfull everytime I went.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by BearnDown

By cutting resident tags, they are cutting recreational licenses for those who can afford to go out and play. By cutting Outfitter Allocations, they would be taking bread off somebodys table. I'm all for a cut on resident tags before Outfitter Allocations.... a guys gotta work.

HUH WTF???

Forgett that idea. I am usually one of the first to stick up for Outfitters. But in NO way should they be placed ahead of residents.
I can usnderstand if it takes a bit of time to get things straightened out..
Screw Gotta work.. Go out and find another profesion if yours gets shut down.
Bearn that has to be a front runner for dumbest comment of the year.

Jamie

[ovis40]

http://www.mccowanteam.com/properties/812AB.html

Looks like Lorne to me, has been for sale for some time now. As for another outfitter you guys have been talking about I know he is tired of working his ass off and seeing less and less sheep! His area had elk at one time also but hasen't seen any of them. Same goes for the other outfitters close to him.

[BearnDown]

There shouldn't be any need to find another profession, this should all work smoothley to start with (I know I know, not bloody likely lol)

My point is, I'd rather see my plans change for my hunting season than see an Outfitter lose his business. I believe the vast majority of Outfitters are straight up guys that do a damn good job, they deserve a fair shake. I can always wait an extra couple years, if I'm that damn excited to go get something, I'll take my Bow lol.

One thing I would like to see however that hasn't been brought up here yet, is the ability for Outfitters to sell tags to Residents (along with a Guided hunt of course).

[Jamie]

Well perhaps I reacted a bit harsh.. My Bad

I aggree 100% with Outfitters being able to sell tags to Residents. Why do we discrimanate against those that can afford it here in Alberta?

But Honestly the day I see a outfitter getting tags when the average hunter can not.. Well that will be the day I lose it. Imagine EXCLUSIVE Outfitter WMU's

These Outfitter tags should come with a notice saying they can be yanked back on 2 years notice. Perhaps then the resale cost will be kept down a bit.

Jamie

[BearnDown]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Imagine EXCLUSIVE Outfitter WMU's

Ya, that I agree with whole heartedly. I don't ever see that happening in Alberta.

Originally Posted by Jamie

These Outfitter tags should come with a notice saying they can be yanked back on 2 years notice. Perhaps then the resale cost will be kept down a bit.

Jamie

I gotta agree with you there too. Its ridiculous what some of these allocations go for in this province.

[BearnDown]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Why do we discrimanate against those that can afford it here in Alberta?

I think (just my ******ed opinion lol) what they were trying to sccomplish there is to keep all Albertans on a level playing field, and cheers for the effort, but in the end, the Government just didn't think it all the way through. Why are we kept on a level playing field, while Aliens can just buy the tags? lol. Dosn't make any sense does it?

And at the same time then (not that I'm bitching) why can I go buy a general Moose license and go take a Moose with my bow, but I gotta wait 3 years to do it with my rifle? If they're tryin to keep us all fair and square shouldn't us Bowhunters need a draw too? (I can't believe I just actually said that out loud, I'm gonna get hell for that lol)

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by BearnDown

One thing I would like to see however that hasn't been brought up here yet, is the ability for Outfitters to sell tags to Residents (along with a Guided hunt of course).

They can't???????

tm

[BearnDown]

No they can't. I know lots of guys that would be happy to buy a Mule Deer or Moose Hunt at home in Alberta.

[Tundra Monkey]

That's baffling.......how can they legislate who you sell your product to? If a guy walks in and drops the asking price for a hunt why can't they sell it to them? What is the reasoning behind that.....or is there any? If a local walked into any of the outfitters up here and wanted to pay for the product the only question they'd get asked is "aisle or window"?......well.....actually pretty much all of the seats have windows

tm

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

That's baffling.......how can they legislate who you sell your product to? If a guy walks in and drops the asking price for a hunt why can't they sell it to them? What is the reasoning behind that.....or is there any? If a local walked into any of the outfitters up here and wanted to pay for the product the only question they'd get asked is "aisle or window"?......well.....actually pretty much all of the seats have windows

tm

thats because its quota up there tundra not allocation, here if you shall choose you can buy a allocation or tag , up there its based on quota and that is the reason.

[Tundra Monkey]

I guess I don't understand the difference between quota and allocation....I'll find a dictionary when I get home

There are not quotas in the Mackenzies for the mt outfitters....they manage their areas themselves. Caribou is different and you are given said amount of tags with your license.

I think my problem stems from the fact that you can take $20000 from a guy from BC/SK/USA but that money from a guy who lives in Edmonton is no good.

Thanx for trying to clear it up for me Slinger......just another case of me not being too bright

tm

Originally Posted by ovis40

http://www.mccowanteam.com/properties/812AB.html

Looks like Lorne to me, has been for sale for some time now. As for another outfitter you guys have been talking about I know he is tired of working his ass off and seeing less and less sheep! His area had elk at one time also but hasen't seen any of them. Same goes for the other outfitters close to him.

Very well said, hence all the for sale signs!!! I wish the outfitters would come forward and communicate the shortage of ungulates to SRD. Right now they are communicating the sheep population etc. in their respective areas are fine. I guess until they are lucky enough to selll their allocations.

[NCC]

They should get rid of the allocations and put the tags on draw. Once a non-resident draws a tag, then he hires an outfitter to take him out. This way the tag numbers can be adjusted yearly, according to game populations, without having to claw back tags from guides. Also, the good guides, instead of the guides with all the permits, will stay in business. And it will allow your average Joe non-resident to draw a tag and a go on a reasonably priced hunt.

Any species that are on draw for residents should be off limits for non-residents and subsistence hunters. Or at least severely restrict the draw tags.

What is a DAO?

[j m]

I wouldn't be upset at all if outfitting in Alberta ended tomorrow. As it is, outfitting does bring money into the province. I don't doubt the 35-40 million quoted.

Think of it this way. How much wealth would be lost if the outfitting industry stopped today? In the short term, quite a bit. Within 5 years we would have people moving to Alberta just because of the hunting; buying homes, cars, groceries, hunting gear, ..... There is more to be gained from someone who lives here year round than someone that comes once a year for a week.
If quality hunting is important enough to them, they will move here. That is the kind of people we should be trying to bring in anyway. They make better neighbors.

As for allocations, no resident should be without a tag when a non resident has one.IMHO

Originally Posted by NCC

They should get rid of the allocations and put the tags on draw. Once a non-resident draws a tag, then he hires an outfitter to take him out. This way the tag numbers can be adjusted yearly, according to game populations, without having to claw back tags from guides. Also, the good guides, instead of the guides with all the permits, will stay in business. And it will allow your average Joe non-resident to draw a tag and a go on a reasonably priced hunt.

Any species that are on draw for residents should be off limits for non-residents and subsistence hunters. Or at least severely restrict the draw tags.

What is a DAO?

X100!!!! A DAO is an order of Government that allows, in this case APOS to self-govern. They do their own licencing, administer their membership, administer their disiplinary hearings etc.. The Government in a nutshell let's them do their own thing so to speak with minimal interference. Really the only thing Govt. is involved in is if they lay charges against a guided hunter, the guide or the outfitter. The Trappers Asssociation is trying to go the same route. Also the number of tags issued on a percentage IS NOT RELEVENT!! iT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ON A PERCENTAGE OF HARVEST!!! THE SHEEP TAGS WERE ORIGINALLY ISSUED ON THIS BASIS!!! So for instance in most WMUs that have a sheep season, there are 8 non-resident permits. So if you use the low 20% rule residents should have harvested 32 sheep before this was allowed. (math isn't my best attribute so I hope this is a correct number) Let's see if there is some actual harvest data available!!! I can tell you several letters have been forwarded to Minister Morton to re-visit the way these allocations are doled out as it is not even close to what was originally set up. Perhaps that's why APOS is running as a DAO.

[SouthAltaHunter]

There forsure is issues in some WMU's with outfitter tags. Nube I appreciate your facts but they are really not very clear. If anybody is interested phone Alberta Sustainable Resources and they can give you the information on tag percentages. For example WMU 302 in 2008 had 31 resident antlered mule deer tags. There is 10 outfitter allocations there. My math comes up with outfitter allocations at 32%. WMU 305 had 208 resident mule deer tags vs. 33 outfitter allocations, that is almost 16%. It would be nice if they had a spread sheet broken down into WMU'S. Some zones have under 10% and some have more that 10%. Forsure kinda a touchy subject. By any means I dont have the knowledge or answers to make this better, but it is a problem here in Alberta.

SouthAltaHunter

[nube]

I don't see how the fact sheet I pasted up is confusing you. Yes it would be nice to see it broken down into WMU but I do not know where to get that info. AS for this topic I am out on saying anything else further.
I can understand the frustration coming from some of you and yes it may be valid but the rest of you need to give your head a shake and take a look at what you are saying.
As if people are going to move hear for hunting.
If you think the people moving here are going to make up the 10's of millions of $$$$$ and then donate funds to better our resourses then you are really a dreamer of some sorts.
Good luck with this one guys and I hope you can figure it out for the best.

Originally Posted by nube

i don't see how the fact sheet i pasted up is confusing you. Yes it would be nice to see it broken down into wmu but i do not know where to get that info. As for this topic i am out on saying anything else further.
I can understand the frustration coming from some of you and yes it may be valid but the rest of you need to give your head a shake and take a look at what you are saying.
As if people are going to move hear for hunting.
If you think the people moving here are going to make up the 10's of millions of $$$$$ and then donate funds to better our resourses then you are really a dreamer of some sorts.
Good luck with this one guys and i hope you can figure it out for the best.

the number of tags is irrelevent!! These ALLOCATIONS were supposed to be based on percentage of harvest....which obviously they are not!!!

[bowchaser]

best response yet. Allocations should be out altogether. They should draw a tag like everyone else, then hire your outfitter. Next thing gov needs to do is administer APOS and not allow them to be self governing. Main reason there is so much animosity towards outfitters is due to their illegal and suspect activities, not all of them, without having their licenses revolked.

I am a registered professional with a designation, if I do something illegal I'm done. How is it possible Lloyd McMahon is still in business?

[j m]

Originally Posted by nube

I don't see how the fact sheet I pasted up is confusing you. Yes it would be nice to see it broken down into WMU but I do not know where to get that info. AS for this topic I am out on saying anything else further.
I can understand the frustration coming from some of you and yes it may be valid but the rest of you need to give your head a shake and take a look at what you are saying.
As if people are going to move hear for hunting.
If you think the people moving here are going to make up the 10's of millions of $$$$$ and then donate funds to better our resourses then you are really a dreamer of some sorts.
Good luck with this one guys and I hope you can figure it out for the best.

If only residents were allowed to hunt here, some would move here. The ones that do will have deep pockets and a passion for wildlife. The spinoff from even a handfull will make the guiding industry look like chump change. This is bigger than a few people making some extra cash in the fall. It is a year round economic benefit.

I have yet to see anything done by outfitters that better our resource, or Alberta in general. How many guides/outfitters end up using the $ from guiding to go out of province to hunt? You would be hard pressed not to admit that at least some of the hunts to Africa posted on this forum were funded this way. Or on other trips abroad? That money is gone from Alberta never to return. So where is the benefit to us?

[BearnDown]

Originally Posted by j m

If only residents were allowed to hunt here, some would move here. The ones that do will have deep pockets and a passion for wildlife. The spinoff from even a handfull will make the guiding industry look like chump change. This is bigger than a few people making some extra cash in the fall. It is a year round economic benefit.

I have yet to see anything done by outfitters that better our resource, or Alberta in general. How many guides/outfitters end up using the $ from guiding to go out of province to hunt? You would be hard pressed not to admit that at least some of the hunts to Africa posted on this forum were funded this way. Or on other trips abroad? That money is gone from Alberta never to return. So where is the benefit to us?

Thats really out there Bro lol. I'm just pulling numbers out of my azz, but I would wager a guess that if we nixed Outfitting completley, we may see a maximum of 1 or 2 Non-Residents or Non-Resident Aliens move to Alberta soley because they can't buy a guided hunt here anymore.

So what if an Outfitter goes on a guided hunt somewhere else with the money he makes on the hunting season? I'm a Welder/Mechanic, should Alberta ban Mechanical repair within the province because I took the money I made fixin Semi Trailers and bought a Drift Boat in Idaho a couple years ago? Dosn't make any sense lol.

Originally Posted by j m

I have yet to see anything done by outfitters that better our resource, or Alberta in general.

Have you looked? Or thought about it at all? The Outfitting industry brings some serious cash flow to small businesses in small towns. Just off the top of my head, motels, restaurants, gas stations, liquor stores etc. Have you ever seen a sign in front of a small town hotel or gas station that says "Welcome Hunters"? They put em there for a reason.

Originally Posted by j m

That money is gone from Alberta never to return. So where is the benefit to us?

What about his flight? What about the trip to Wholesale Sports to stock up on stuff for your trip? What about the new boots he buys for his trip? What about the tank of gas he buys to get to the airport? What about the parking fees at the airport? What about the airport taxes? What about the cup of coffee he buys while hes waiting for his flight? What about the wages he paid to his guides to go out and make him that money? What about the taxes he paid on the money he made?

The more I read your post, the further out there it gets.

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by redgreen

the number of tags is irrelevent!! These ALLOCATIONS were supposed to be based on percentage of harvest....which obviously they are not!!!

How would you base a number of allocations on a harvest? If nobody knows how many residents will be killing a certain number of animals, how do you let anyone else in on it? Do you guess?
"Well Mr. Minister we think that residents will kill 250 elk this year so we can only give out 25 allocations." What if only 120 residents kill an elk? What if 400 residents do?
It is not the outfitters fault that they are more successful than I am. That is my fault. If I want to kill a sheep I better be there every weekend before the season opens and spend countless hours on the mountain. Well I don't want to be divorced so that isn't going to happen. I only get 1 week of holidays so the idea of me spending it in the freezing cold if a storm rolls in for 4 or 5 days doesn't appeal to me. I don't have the gear to get back there for a few weeks at a time so I can't justify spending thousands to buy it. I don't have horses or any place to put them. I think there are a lot of residents with a very similar situation as mine.
If a certain number of animals need to be "managed", for lack of a better term, then who can the government trust to harvest a reliable number? The outfitters? Or the residents that may or may not go hunting this year because of holidays, colds, money problems, bad weather, family issues and so on. The outfitters are going come Hull or High Water. They will pull roughly the same percentage of animals as they do every year.
Better management in my view.

[SouthAltaHunter]

Originally Posted by nube

I don't see how the fact sheet I pasted up is confusing you. Yes it would be nice to see it broken down into WMU but I do not know where to get that info. AS for this topic I am out on saying anything else further.
I can understand the frustration coming from some of you and yes it may be valid but the rest of you need to give your head a shake and take a look at what you are saying.
As if people are going to move hear for hunting.
If you think the people moving here are going to make up the 10's of millions of $$$$$ and then donate funds to better our resourses then you are really a dreamer of some sorts.
Good luck with this one guys and I hope you can figure it out for the best.

By any means your fact sheet does not confuse me, if you would like to know the facts down broken into WMU's phone Bruce at Alberta Sustainable Resources and he could answer any questions (1-877-944-0313) By any means I am not trying to start any kind of a scrap here, but in some zones the facts are not fair.


SouthAltaHunter

SouthAltaHunter

[Setterman]

There has been some info posted on this thread from the HFT organization. I personally know the idividuals who work at this organization and they are great people. But how can the average resident hunter have confidence in that information when HFT is being run by a person who is an outfitter and by human nature may be biased. I do not believe that HFT is biased because I personally know these people but how can the average Alberta not????

[BTK]

I'm not sure that the few tags that the outfitters have really affects my hunting. I know that I'm going to get my antelope draw every 5-7 years, I know I'm going to get my mule draw every 2-4 years, I don't think the tags allocated to the outfitters would make a difference of a year or 2 would they?

I really don't have a problem with outfitters owning a small percentage of the tags available, if your really into hunting between your archery tags, general areas, and well manages draws there would be enough tags available for you every year.

I'm good for 4-6 tags a year if I want, then yu have to include Bird hunting. I think theres lots of tags to go around.

And someone said it earlier "Dream Hunt", remeber thats someone elses tag your filling

[j m]

Thats really out there Bro lol. I'm just pulling numbers out of my azz, but I would wager a guess that if we nixed Outfitting completley, we may see a maximum of 1 or 2 Non-Residents or Non-Resident Aliens move to Alberta soley because they can't buy a guided hunt here anymore.

Outfitters with good success are booked years in advance-by the same repeat hunters. Talk some of them if you have the chance. I know I did and was surprised when most said they would move here. It isn't that far out there. How many would choose Alberta as their retirement home if residency was mandatory to hunt? More than you think.

So what if an Outfitter goes on a guided hunt somewhere else with the money he makes on the hunting season? I'm a Welder/Mechanic, should Alberta ban Mechanical repair within the province because I took the money I made fixin Semi Trailers and bought a Drift Boat in Idaho a couple years ago? Dosn't make any sense lol.

There were comments about how much $ is brough in by the outfitters. I'm saying that it does Alberta no good if it leaves as quick as it came. Why not buy a drift boat from Alberta instead? Keep your neighbor working so he can buy goods brough in buy one of the trailers you built.

Have you looked? Or thought about it at all? The Outfitting industry brings some serious cash flow to small businesses in small towns. Just off the top of my head, motels, restaurants, gas stations, liquor stores etc. Have you ever seen a sign in front of a small town hotel or gas station that says "Welcome Hunters"? They put em there for a reason.

"Hunting" brings serious cash, only some of it from outfitting. How much does a guided hunter spend locally compared to a local? Residents support local business far more than once a year visitors. And residents do it year round.

What about his flight? What about the trip to Wholesale Sports to stock up on stuff for your trip? What about the new boots he buys for his trip? What about the tank of gas he buys to get to the airport? What about the parking fees at the airport? What about the airport taxes? What about the cup of coffee he buys while hes waiting for his flight?

Compared to what a non resident spends on gear before he leaves home? What they spend here is small time.How many hunters go to where they're going hunting and then buy all their gear when they get there? I would say none.

What about the wages he paid to his guides to go out and make him that money? What about the taxes he paid on the money he made?

He charged the hunter and expenses take their cut into profit. That's business.

I understand why some are getting defensive on this. If my part time job was being threatened I would be speaking up also. I honestly think we would benefit more without outfitting. Both financially and with animal quality.

[BearnDown]

Originally Posted by BTK

And someone said it earlier "Dream Hunt", remeber thats someone elses tag your filling

I don't think so, I think the tag belongs to whoever comitted themselves to getting it. Whether that be by workin hard and savin your cash to be able to afford the hunt, or putting into the draw religously till you get the tag, or just simply by goin out and buyin the hunt cuz you got enough cash to do it.

[BearnDown]

Originally Posted by j m

He charged the hunter and expenses take their cut into profit. That's business.

Where do you think those expenses go? lol They don't magically disappear, they form another Albertans wage (or part of his wage) and go directly back into the Alberta economy. Whether its paid to the Quad dealership, or Truck Dealership, or to the Safeway Store, or to his mortgage, or to the bank for his allocation loan payment, or to a guide who worked for him, or to the resaurant where he had lunch, or the school fees for his kids, or the jeans he bought last week.... its all still Alberta Economy no matter how you spin it.