Here we go again re: feral horses

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You see over grazing and wallowing? I see one of many big mineral licks to the right of the horses that Moose, deer, elk and horses frequent at a steady rate. This one can be viewed north of Yara creek on the trunk road. The immediate area around any mineral lick in any of the west country even when completely void of horses are grazed basically to the dirt. In this case it's a couple acre area and does not reflect the whole west or even close to it.

get ur self a wild feral pony and tie it up on ur front lawn ...save them ...

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rman

I read your responses above, and I am a little disapointed.
I'll start from the top and work down.
It is obvious you have a romantic sympathetic view towards he horses, that serve no other purpose but to provide eye candy for an interested few.
The fact that some of these horses have never seen the hand of man does not make them wild. It doesn't matter how many generations they have been out there, they are still decendants of domesticated animals. This still makes them feral, not wild.

I am not sure what proof you need that the horses are not impacting habitat. By the sheer fact that they are there, and are not supposed to be, they are negatively impacting the enviroment. Again, every blade of grass that a horse eats, could be eaten by an animal that is native to that habitat.

So will less grazing help the grass lands or allow for more aged grasses and new growth being choked out from unused grasses such as is happening at places such as the YaHa?
Yes every blade a horses could be eaten by other animals but when the grasses out there now arent fully being utalized it really isnt going to make a large change in other animals health.

Originally Posted by Rman

You say you feel the need for control, but still want protection? How is all of this to be paid for?
I have another very simple question. If you had only one dollar to spend on wildlife management, would you spend that dollar on elk, moose, and deer, or would you spend it on the horses?

Yep there should be control. And no ive never once stated they need to be protected. I actually if you read all the posts say they do not need protection!! And hunting of horses will cost more money than the currant catch program

Originally Posted by Rman

People are funny. They form opinions based on what they know, and on what they are told. If you keep calling them "wild" people believe it. Start calling them feral, and then educate based on that one word, I strongly feel opinions would change. We still have a seal hunt in this country, and still mine asbestos. Life will go on.

Finally, if brown trout are not a native species, then my opinion is they shouldn't be there.
So, because these horses are nice to look at, by people in a small area, my tax dollars are being spent to protect them? No thanks.

Actually at this time none of anyones dollars are going towards these horses!! SRD refuses to take responsibility as does any other groups. So until SRD will say yes horses are our baby you can talk all you want but nothing will happen on any major level.

Originally Posted by Rman

In summary, this is the deal. It is the truth. If I am wrong anywhere in my summary, please point it out.
These horses are decendants from escaped or freed domesticated animals. That makes them, by definition, feral. They happen to live in an enviroment that has allowed them to survive. Just because they can, certainly doesn't mean they should. You have said yourself that there is no way to eradicate these animals, and I agree.
You say that there is no proof that they are affecting other wildlife. Again, I say by the simple fact that they are there, and are not supposed to be, they have an affect. This is very simple logic, and if you can refute it, please try. It is not a question of how much grass and habitat there is.

And dont you think removing the many many thousands of cattle would be a better first step? They are alot harder on the forage areas wildlife use and waterways than the horses are.

Originally Posted by Rman

As with most things in this world, these horses cost money. That money is generated by taxes that we all pay. I'm also sure that donations are made. This is another matter, so I'll just stick with the taxes. There is only so much money available for wildlife management. The fact that some if this money is being spent on aniamls that don't belong, is a travesty. That money should be spent on actual wildlife. See my question about the dollar above.

Again you bring up managment and dollars spent but you do not realize they spend nothing on these horses and there is basically no managment plan as SRD does no want to fully be responsible or deal with this horse issue as they know what the public out cry can turn into if done certain ways and the info get spread out there.

Originally Posted by Rman

Opinion time: I see absolutly no difference in rounding up feral horses and taking them to slaughter and issuing tags (revenue generation) for hunters to shoot and eat them, except the hunter is actual showing more respect for the animal. Use the existing laws to manage horses, just like we do for everything else in this province. Hell, we can go and shoot a bison, but not feral horses? How does that even make sense?

The reasoning the difference between horses and bison is strickly do to way people look at the animals. You guys dont grasp that people in Alberta look highly at horses and they will care more about them being shot than bison are.

Originally Posted by Rman

Your proposed control and protection plan will cost money, and plenty of it. Where do you expect this money to come from?

You need to check into the cost of things. Capture permits has been going on for many many years already on and off. Like I stated things now cost nothing and issuing permits for capturing cost basically the price of the paper. So nothing is being spent as of now!!
Start a hunting season and you will have to have managment plans, tag issuing costs, policing, costs to fight illegal harvests so the costs will climb with that step alot farther than just issuing capture permits.
So in actual fact your way will end up costing you more dollars than the current capture system.

And ive never proposed protection once again!!! I am against it!!

Originally Posted by Rman

In closing, bottom line, these are feral animals and don't belong on the landcape. They have a negative impact from the fact that they are there. Eradication is not rellay a realistic option, but I don't see why they can't be rounded up, shot, re-domesticated, or whatever. Numbers will be reduced, and the survivors will go further into tougher to reach places, where you can still take all of the pictures of them you want.

R.

No arguing here but I do realistically know that a hunt will never take place just for the simple fact that there isnt a group that will take that step just because of the simple fact they are scared of the publics reaction and that is the truth on that.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Kauna

get ur self a wild feral pony and tie it up on ur front lawn ...save them ...

Ive actually had lots in my pens. And have removed more from the west country than most of you guys wanting them gone have all put together.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Ive actually had lots in my pens. And have removed more from the west country than most of you guys wanting them gone have all put together.

now ur talking keep goin ..sheepguide , they "don't " belong out there whether u like it or not.... no terd and grass picture taking by you is gonna change that !

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Kauna

now ur talking keep goin ..sheepguide , they "don't " belong out there whether u like it or not.... no terd and grass picture taking by you is gonna change that !

Thats your opinion and thats cool.

[sheepguide]

But guys such as you should learn to say that the horses should be gone because you feel they don't belong and shouldn't have a place out there.
But people keep trying to blame them for other issues that they really have had no part in as an excuse and that is easily seen by anyone willing to go look at the Ya Ha and its drastic elk population reduction!!!


I love anyone that brings up shooting horses and eradication of them on these public forums. As just from that alone I will always see horses out there. And at the rate many are going these types of things will push horses into protected status which will be a ****ty situation.

[sheepguide]

Here is one for you guys!

Many argue the disease factor but yet you then say we should hunt them and consume and use every part. Isnt that a little big conflicting? I sure wouldnt be pushing the issue for a hunt on an animal potentially carrying a disease!

[Rman]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So will less grazing help the grass lands or allow for more aged grasses and new growth being choked out from unused grasses such as is happening at places such as the YaHa?
Yes every blade a horses could be eaten by other animals but when the grasses out there now arent fully being utalized it really isnt going to make a large change in other animals health.




Yep there should be control. And no ive never once stated they need to be protected. I actually if you read all the posts say they do not need protection!! And hunting of horses will cost more money than the currant catch program



Actually at this time none of anyones dollars are going towards these horses!! SRD refuses to take responsibility as does any other groups. So until SRD will say yes horses are our baby you can talk all you want but nothing will happen on any major level.



And dont you think removing the many many thousands of cattle would be a better first step? They are alot harder on the forage areas wildlife use and waterways than the horses are.



Again you bring up managment and dollars spent but you do not realize they spend nothing on these horses and there is basically no managment plan as SRD does no want to fully be responsible or deal with this horse issue as they know what the public out cry can turn into if done certain ways and the info get spread out there.



The reasoning the difference between horses and bison is strickly do to way people look at the animals. You guys dont grasp that people in Alberta look highly at horses and they will care more about them being shot than bison are.



You need to check into the cost of things. Capture permits has been going on for many many years already on and off. Like I stated things now cost nothing and issuing permits for capturing cost basically the price of the paper. So nothing is being spent as of now!!
Start a hunting season and you will have to have managment plans, tag issuing costs, policing, costs to fight illegal harvests so the costs will climb with that step alot farther than just issuing capture permits.
So in actual fact your way will end up costing you more dollars than the current capture system.

And ive never proposed protection once again!!! I am against it!!




No arguing here but I do realistically know that a hunt will never take place just for the simple fact that there isnt a group that will take that step just because of the simple fact they are scared of the publics reaction and that is the truth on that.

Who paid for, and who all was invloved in the investigation of the shooting of these animals? That work was not done for free.
The fact that these horses can't be shot legally, is an indication that money has been, and will continue to be spent.

You keep talking about habitat and grazing. The horses are not supposed to be there, as they are feral. After this statement, there really is no argument to be had. Again, just because they can be there, doesn't mean they should.

You say you are not for protection, and yet they are already protected? Its not like I can go and shoot one, is it?
If they weren't already protected, and could be legally shot, I don't think there would be much of an issue regarding population control.
Issuing tags generates revenue. I am not sure why a study would have to be done on escaped and freed livestock to determine population and management?

The public's reaction is not based on facts, it is based on emotion. That is simple lack of education. There is a huge difference when a guy in a suit with a bunch of letters behind his name explains the difference between wild and feral, than some slob dressed in a mac jacket starts talking about wanting to shoot and eat a horse. Its media manipulation, no more and no less. They will never put an articulate fella on the evening news to talk about hunting. It doesn't fit the stereotype.

R.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

But guys such as you should learn to say that the horses should be gone because you feel they don't belong and shouldn't have a place out there.
But people keep trying to blame them for other issues that they really have had no part in as an excuse and that is easily seen by anyone willing to go look at the Ya Ha and its drastic elk population reduction!!!


I love anyone that brings up shooting horses and eradication of them on these public forums. As just from that alone I will always see horses out there. And at the rate many are going these types of things will push horses into protected status which will be a ****ty situation.

your passion for the feral horses is well put thru-out this thread ..but you are still wrong ..i wish there was a way all of them could be in ur pens .......there are many on here that would take them off the west landscape forever ..including me

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Kauna

your passion for the feral horses is well put thru-out this thread ..but you are still wrong ..i wish there was a way all of them could be in ur pens .......there are many on here that would take them off the west landscape forever ..including me

Like I said great opinion and you keep pushing for eradication and shooting. The pro horse people thank you for saving them. Your the only ones that don't see your doing the exact opposite of what you want.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Like I said great opinion and you keep pushing for eradication and shooting. The pro horse people thank you for saving them. Your the only ones that don't see your doing the exact opposite of what you want.

"save them" u right , just not at the expense of our natural habitat and species..what's wrong with that ..save ur breathe here and get a plan in motion..good grief

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by Kauna

your passion for the feral horses is well put thru-out this thread ..but you are still wrong ..i wish there was a way all of them could be in ur pens .......there are many on here that would take them off the west landscape forever ..including me

Tell ya what, you go to the government and tell them you want to head up a program to eliminate all the wildies from the eastern slopes. You head 'er up and fund it. You said there's lots of guys on here who feel the same, I'm sure they'll help you.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rman

Who paid for, and who all was invloved in the investigation of the shooting of these animals? That work was not done for free.
The fact that these horses can't be shot legally, is an indication that money has been, and will continue to be spent.

You keep talking about habitat and grazing. The horses are not supposed to be there, as they are feral. After this statement, there really is no argument to be had. Again, just because they can be there, doesn't mean they should.

You say you are not for protection, and yet they are already protected? Its not like I can go and shoot one, is it?
If they weren't already protected, and could be legally shot, I don't think there would be much of an issue regarding population control.
Issuing tags generates revenue. I am not sure why a study would have to be done on escaped and freed livestock to determine population and management?

The public's reaction is not based on facts, it is based on emotion. That is simple lack of education. There is a huge difference when a guy in a suit with a bunch of letters behind his name explains the difference between wild and feral, than some slob dressed in a mac jacket starts talking about wanting to shoot and eat a horse. Its media manipulation, no more and no less. They will never put an articulate fella on the evening news to talk about hunting. It doesn't fit the stereotype.

R.

Ive argued habitat and grazing for sure. As many blame horses for the decline in elk numbers. Ive argued the fact that there is not enough horse damage to affect the numbers one bit. Ive never argued if they are or aren't meant to be there. I will argue the reasoning of most as to why they should be gone. I see no reason the west country can not hold a number of horses. And other than because they shouldnt be is the only argument you have.

Should we reintroduce wildlife into areas mother nature has removed them from? Should we ever cull wolves? Should bighorns ever be reintroduced into the river breaks? Should ram mountain bighorns be helped? Should we be transplanting any animals to help populations out that are naturally declining?
Should we as humans even be out there as we sure belong less than them horses do but that will never happen.

But get rid of them dam horses because they just shouldnt be there. So far that is the only reasoning you guys can come up with.

[sjemac]

The horses are ultimately like ugly stepchildren that no one wants to claim. The province absolutely wants nothing to do with them. The Feds have some nominal authority over them as free-roaming livestock.

If someone was to take authority for them and commission a real scientific study regarding their impact on the ecosystem then maybe a lot of this debate would be settled. Perhaps the Wildhorse Association and Alberta fish and game should contribute some money to a study that will determine impact and make recommendations.

I doubt that will happen because the Wildhorse Association is essentially a "hobby" organization. Meaning that its members will carry-on trying to protect the horses regardless of what science tells them. The leaders of that group have turned a cause into their only form of recreation. They can't let it go even if there was clear evidence that horses were negatively impacting the environment. Their identity has become intertwined with the association itself. It is a part of who they are and a part they can't live without.


I do accept the fact that hunting will never likely happen. That doesn't change the fact that it would be the best control mechanism and should still be the one we as hunters are pushing. Again, why do we treat the horses differently than feral hogs, feral dogs, or overpopulated big game.?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Kauna

"save them" u right , just not at the expense of our natural habit and species..what's wrong with that ..save ur breathe here and get a plan in motion..good grief

But you cant even prove they are hurting natural habitat or species. You have no proof other than you dont like them there so dont try the habitat crap unless you can prove any of it which you can not. So keep fishing.

[Matt L.]

As I said Darcy, emotion. Just as strong as the emotions behind WHOAS.

[Rman]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

But guys such as you should learn to say that the horses should be gone because you feel they don't belong and shouldn't have a place out there.
But people keep trying to blame them for other issues that they really have had no part in as an excuse and that is easily seen by anyone willing to go look at the Ya Ha and its drastic elk population reduction!!!


I love anyone that brings up shooting horses and eradication of them on these public forums. As just from that alone I will always see horses out there. And at the rate many are going these types of things will push horses into protected status which will be a ****ty situation.

It really isn't about what guys feel. It is about what is right, how money is being spent, and how true wildlife are managed.
There really is nothing to blame as far as other issues go. They are not supposed to be there. That should be enough of an argument right there. You can't say for sure that there is no affect on other animals, any more than anyone else can say that there is. Your pictures prove nothing, either way.
I find it very unfortunate that you advocate the introduction and propigation of non native species into specialized habitat areas, for no other benefit except for photo opportunities. The consequences are truly unknown, and history provides us with a brutal track record of these types of things very seldom working out for the better.
We also know that once a precident has been set, it is a very dangerous slope with regards to how future items will be handled. The fact is, that due to public opinion, and mis-education, these horses are already protected. The chances of that changing are slim to none. That doesn't make it right. Hunting is the most cost effective way to control population. Tag sales generate revenue. Management should be non existant on an invasive species.

Sadly, all of the arguments on this forum will change nothing, and you will still be able to take your pictures and enjoy the horses. That still doesn't make it right.

R.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Tell ya what, you go to the government and tell them you want to head up a program to eliminate all the wildies from the eastern slopes. You head 'er up and fund it. You said there's lots of guys on here who feel the same, I'm sure they'll help you.

the cowboy has spoken...lol..

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sjemac

The horses are ultimately like ugly stepchildren that no one wants to claim. The province absolutely wants nothing to do with them. The Feds have some nominal authority over them as free-roaming livestock.

If someone was to take authority for them and commission a real scientific study regarding their impact on the ecosystem then maybe a lot of this debate would be settled. Perhaps the Wildhorse Association and Alberta fish and game should contribute some money to a study that will determine impact and make recommendations.

I doubt that will happen because the Wildhorse Association is essentially a "hobby" organization. Meaning that its members will carry-on trying to protect the horses regardless of what science tells them. The leaders of that group have turned a cause into their only form of recreation. They can't let it go even if there was clear evidence that horses were negatively impacting the environment. Their identity has become intertwined with the association itself. It is a part of who they are and a part they can't live without.


I do accept the fact that hunting will never likely happen. That doesn't change the fact that it would be the best control mechanism and should still be the one we as hunters are pushing. Again, why do we treat the horses differently than feral hogs, feral dogs, or overpopulated big game.?

Thats the biggest thing is no one wants to claim them.

And no they really shouldnt be treated different that the hogs and such but they are. That is a fact that will never go away. Im just scared that to many guys pushing eradication and shooting no matter the affectivness, these comments or ideas in the hands of organizations like WHOA society will give them the edge they need to push this protection plan forward.

A certain number of horses in the west country isnt going to hurt. If we can get proper control via capturing(the only way that will ever pass) we can keep them reduced and we can keep all parties involved happy.

[Kauna]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

But you cant even prove they are hurting natural habitat or species. You have no proof other than you dont like them there so dont try the habitat crap unless you can prove any of it which you can not. So keep fishing.

you are a very mixed up guy ....

[Rman]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

But get rid of them dam horses because they just shouldnt be there. So far that is the only reasoning you guys can come up with.

That should be enough an argument.
You said yourself that you'll never get rid of them all, and I agree with you.
Letting them run their own course isn't the answer either. I know you are for some kind of population control, but what does that look like? And why?

Why are we protecting escaped and freed livestock?
Since when is that a priority in wildlife management?
Why are we spending money on protecting and managing feral animals?


R.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

Are the feral horses to blame for the rapid and unexplained drop in elk numbers, yes.

Feral horses carry disease that can spread to wildlife populations.

Can you please post your documentation and proof as ive never seen one piece posted anywhere stating that are in fact to blame.


And where is the areas this wildlife is dying off due to disease? As its never been brought up by anyone as a cause other than you Nait. Id love to read up more on it so i really look forwarding your sources.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Tell ya what, you go to the government and tell them you want to head up a program to eliminate all the wildies from the eastern slopes. You head 'er up and fund it. You said there's lots of guys on here who feel the same, I'm sure they'll help you.

Give Alberta Lands and Forestry a call. They would love to take all protection off of these beasts and have them erradicated. It is the people who are hired by public opinion (politicians) that are too scared to upset the vocal advocates on this issue.

There is a Feral Horse Management plan in the works and research into Alberta Feral Horse evironmental impacts. It will be interesting to see what is published.



Do we allow recently released horses to be protected, or just those with a proven "Wild" lineage?

What do we do with the new feral horse populations that are expanding into lands that have not had "wild" horses for the last 100 years? Should these be managed under the current regulations or simply eliminated?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Give Alberta Lands and Forestry a call. They would love to take all protection off of these beasts and have them erradicated. It is the people who are hired by public opinion (politicians) that are too scared to upset the vocal advocates on this issue.

There is a Feral Horse Management plan in the works and research into Alberta Feral Horse enwhat evironmental impacts. It will be interesting to see what is published.



Do we allow recently released horses to be protected, or just those with a proven "Wild" lineage?

What do we do with the new feral horse populations that are expanding into lands that have not had "wild" horses for the last 100 years? Should these be managed under the current regulations or simply eliminated?

Hopefully logic and not emotions prevails and they do what is right for Alberta wildlife and habitat.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rman

That should be enough an argument.
You said yourself that you'll never get rid of them all, and I agree with you.
Letting them run their own course isn't the answer either. I know you are for some kind of population control, but what does that look like? And why?

Why are we protecting escaped and freed livestock?
Since when is that a priority in wildlife management?
Why are we spending money on protecting and managing feral animals?


R.

I dont see where they are spending money to protect and manage these horses? Can you please show that?

What does population control look like?

Auto closing corrals such as this one that used to be used when capture was utilized by many.


Winged corrals for herding horses into.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Give Alberta Lands and Forestry a call. They would love to take all protection off of these beasts and have them erradicated. It is the people who are hired by public opinion (politicians) that are too scared to upset the vocal advocates on this issue.

There is a Feral Horse Management plan in the works and research into Alberta Feral Horse enwhat evironmental impacts. It will be interesting to see what is published.



Do we allow recently released horses to be protected, or just those with a proven "Wild" lineage?

What do we do with the new feral horse populations that are expanding into lands that have not had "wild" horses for the last 100 years? Should these be managed under the current regulations or simply eliminated?

The biggest issue right now on recently released horses are the Native Reserves. They have been the biggest issue in the release of horses province wide. And yes any people ever caught releasing horses out there should be delt with and punished and these are the areas that should be target for this.


Oh hey Dale you didnt answer my question on where the private lands you had to shoot the horse as im sure you werent admitting to shooting a free ranging horse were you?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Give Alberta Lands and Forestry a call. They would love to take all protection off of these beasts and have them erradicated. It is the people who are hired by public opinion (politicians) that are too scared to upset the vocal advocates on this issue.

No matter who wants it or whom is scared no one will ever make the call for shooting or eradication as they are smart enough to know that is career suicide!

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by sjemac

Better than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fszCjQcxn0

Alberta horses are already ending up like the ones in the Aussie vid.

Bring in a cull and force the hunters to utilize the meat -- just like we do with other animals. Force them to take the hide too.

Why? I only watched the first half of the video, but all I saw was a normal slaughter house operation, no different than if they were killing cattle or pigs. What I didn't see was panicked, stressed-out, tortured animals that you referred to in an earlier post. Horse slaughter houses are already happening, and the animal rights people already don't like them. But as SG already said, it's not those that we, as hunters, need to worry about. It's the ones (majority) that are currently sitting on the fence that we don't want to turn against us. I can just see it now when the first trophy shots of some guy, with the wild horse he just shot, hit AO. Or how about the following taxidermy shots a few months later? There would be a huge backlash just from this board, full of people that already hunt, alone. Can you imagine the outcry when the same pictures hit facebook? It would just make us all look like idiots. I still don't understand why anyone would want to go out and shoot a horse for pleasure.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see where they are spending money to protect and manage these horses? Can you please show that?

What does population control look like?

Auto closing corrals such as this one that used to be used when capture was utilized by many.


Winged corrals for herding horses into.

What did the improper and unethical investigation into Nixon cost? That was directly due to the protection afforded the horses. I would say it cost well into 6 figures on top of destroying a mans life and reputation.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I dont see where they are spending money to protect and manage these horses? Can you please show that?

Taxpayer money is spent on Arial surveys, developing and implementing management plans including the expense of havng inspectors review every capture, research into ecological and industrial impacts, legal issues, and of course spending a pile of time dealing with WHOAS and their attempt to wrestle away control of these feral animals. Now the Canadian government is going to have to spend taxpayer dollars on this issue too.

I'm sure this list is not 100% complete. Eh, Pickle.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

The biggest issue right now on recently released horses are the Native Reserves. They have been the biggest issue in the release of horses province wide. And yes any people ever caught releasing horses out there should be delt with and punished and these are the areas that should be target for this.


Oh hey Dale you didnt answer my question on where the private lands you had to shoot the horse as im sure you werent admitting to shooting a free ranging horse were you?

Yes, a couple of native reserves are definately contributing to the problem. Maybe they are hoping to have the provincial government offer the same deal as occurs in BC where the band is paid to shoot the feral horses?


If you are sure, why ask?