Hunter Education Course

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by chuck

You can't do that in the field?

I don't think the average person will do a good enough job of passing that down about every single species.

[Salavee]

Lots of parents do that - and do a great job of it. That's a non-issue. However, those parents with an abundance of knowledge and experience to pass on are a minority .
Other new Hunters don't have knowledgeable parents or relatives to mentor them. That is an issue, as the mandatory courses as they are now, don't come close to filling the gap. It seems, at least to me, that the current Hunter ED course has to be re-structured, broadened and made somewhat more difficult... kinda like a strict mentor.

[Salavee]

xxxx

[couleefolk]

I am not familiar with Alberta's courses, but have been involved with Manitoba's for years. Our best program that I have seen is our Junior Rifle program, which our club teaches hunter safety about a .5hr each week over the course of the winter, along with actual firearm handling every week. We have had a lot of experienced hunters come back to tell us how their kids were correcting some of their habits, and how they knew their kids were right. I also know that after a lot of folks, young and old, had passed the online hunter safety, failed the practical portion where they have to go and be tested. This means that they have to start from scratch, redo the online course and get retested. For almost the same money, they can take a 3 evening course and get some actual training. It amazes me how people can't make time for these useful courses, even though it takes time to hunt also. I also have talked to people that have taken the PAL course, passed no problem, and then taken the Manitoba Hunter Safety with my father, and found out they knew diddly squat about anything when it came to firearms, let alone hunter safety. I have also talked to a lot of folks that found that their licensed hunter friends that passed the quick courses were lacking in knowledge of hunter safety, and they quit hunting with said folks. Most often a person that has not been taught properly does not even realize what is all involved. My father has done a lot of courses, and I have been approached time and again by folks that tell me how much they were glad they took the course with him, and how much they learned. My father was also there to help those that were struggling to understand and pass their tests, he didn't believe in handouts. With the amount of shooters around, it should not be hard to offer a decent course to new shooters, but alas, everyone's time seems to be worth more than that of promoting a sport they say they love, and if you can't make profit off it they can't be bothered. Herein lies the problem. When I helped coach the club and teach hunter safety, it was all volunteer time, twice a week and occasional weekends, with a supper at the end of the year as a thanks. I prefer to see educated folks picking up firearms instead of the "man, I had to guess at a few of those to pass" folks.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

I don't think the average person will do a good enough job of passing that down about every single species.

A book won't do that either.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Lots of parents do that - and do a great job of it. That's a non-issue. However, those parents with an abundance of knowledge and experience to pass on are a minority .
Other new Hunters don't have knowledgeable parents or relatives to mentor them. That is an issue, as the mandatory courses as they are now, don't come close to filling the gap. It seems, at least to me, that the current Hunter ED course has to be re-structured, broadened and made somewhat more difficult... kinda like a strict mentor.

That's why I said 16. If a 12 year old has someone dragging them around hunting generally they care. Whether that is a parent or otherwise.

[Salavee]

'scuse the double post. I was editing and the first one got away.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by couleefolk

I am not familiar with Alberta's courses, but have been involved with Manitoba's for years. Our best program that I have seen is our Junior Rifle program, which our club teaches hunter safety about a .5hr each week over the course of the winter, along with actual firearm handling every week. We have had a lot of experienced hunters come back to tell us how their kids were correcting some of their habits, and how they knew their kids were right. I also know that after a lot of folks, young and old, had passed the online hunter safety, failed the practical portion where they have to go and be tested. This means that they have to start from scratch, redo the online course and get retested. For almost the same money, they can take a 3 evening course and get some actual training. It amazes me how people can't make time for these useful courses, even though it takes time to hunt also. I also have talked to people that have taken the PAL course, passed no problem, and then taken the Manitoba Hunter Safety with my father, and found out they knew diddly squat about anything when it came to firearms, let alone hunter safety. I have also talked to a lot of folks that found that their licensed hunter friends that passed the quick courses were lacking in knowledge of hunter safety, and they quit hunting with said folks. Most often a person that has not been taught properly does not even realize what is all involved. My father has done a lot of courses, and I have been approached time and again by folks that tell me how much they were glad they took the course with him, and how much they learned. My father was also there to help those that were struggling to understand and pass their tests, he didn't believe in handouts. With the amount of shooters around, it should not be hard to offer a decent course to new shooters, but alas, everyone's time seems to be worth more than that of promoting a sport they say they love, and if you can't make profit off it they can't be bothered. Herein lies the problem. When I helped coach the club and teach hunter safety, it was all volunteer time, twice a week and occasional weekends, with a supper at the end of the year as a thanks. I prefer to see educated folks picking up firearms instead of the "man, I had to guess at a few of those to pass" folks.

Great Post. Something like this would be a real bonus if there were a way to implement it in these parts.
Many years ago ( late '50's early 60's) Edm Fish & Game had a very similar program going. We used the indoor range at the old Edmonton RCMP K Div HQ when it was located on top of Grierson Hill . Lots of participants -young & old alike.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And that is a problem in itself, in that people are getting too used to waiting for someone else to tell them what they need to know, rather that taking some initiative to learn on their own.

A bit of a derail here. I do not think we should answer questions that are easily found by reading the regs. If one feels the need to be helpful a simple answer might be something like "General Regulations of 2016 Guide found no page 30.PERIOD"

Cutting and pasting is too much spoon feeding.

[Xbolt7mm]

This is a tough discussion. The currant course i dont think even comes close to teaching all that is required. Just follow the poached thread that's going in the hunting forum right now. There's some young people there that understand the difference between legal hunting and illegal but dont know what to do about it when they discover it. Now what's the fix, im not sure. Most of us know that its a good mentor, be that your dad or uncle or even a good friend that will teach the most, but what is taught is based on the moral values of the teacher. It really is a tough discussion with, im sure, a difficult solution.

[HunterDave]

I'm not sure what it is about Alberta and people lobbying for more and more legislation to save us from ourselves but there seems to be more than anywhere else that I've lived across Canada.

I think that in this case some people, particularly in urban areas, don't realize that a lot of rural kids were born and raised around firearms. They are taught proper firearms handling and safety at a very early age. My first rifle at about aged 6 was a daisy BB gun and as I got older I graduated to a pellet gun, .410 shotgun and finally a .22 at about 12 years old. I had friends allowed to hunt with a .22 at an earlier age than me but my Dad was a little stricter with me. It's not really that uncommon for a rural kid to shoot his first deer at age 12. I don't think that people with that type of background really need to attend a formal course and the way that it is now is perfectly fine.

As far as ethics and legalities go, if someone chooses to be unethical or become a poacher, how is a course as opposed to self study going to change their character?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

I'm not sure what it is about Alberta and people lobbying for more and more legislation to save us from ourselves but there seems to be more than anywhere else that I've lived across Canada.

I think that in this case some people, particularly in urban areas, don't realize that a lot of rural kids were born and raised around firearms. They are taught proper firearms handling and safety at a very early age. My first rifle at about aged 6 was a daisy BB gun and as I got older I graduated to a pellet gun, .410 shotgun and finally a .22 at about 12 years old. I had friends allowed to hunt with a .22 at an earlier age than me but my Dad was a little stricter with me. It's not really that uncommon for a rural kid to shoot his first deer at age 12. I don't think that people with that type of background really need to attend a formal course and the way that it is now is perfectly fine.

As far as ethics and legalities go, if someone chooses to be unethical or become a poacher, how is a course as opposed to self study going to change their character?

What you state is true but that was then. Now is different.-very different as you, no doubt, can see. Society has changed and laws have changed. Sure, there are some kids in todays world that are fortunate enough today to be raised in that older style environment. You, I and many others on this forum were introduced to firearms, shooting and hunting that way .. but that was in an era that is now long gone.

Adding legislation is not in anybody's best interest. The Hunter Ed legislation already exists, but has obvious shortcomings. Why not enhance it ? For sure, it will never change bad attitudes or destructive habits for some, but it would provide those who sincerely want to learn with a comprehensive knowledge base that they can expand on for the rest of their lives if they wish .. as we did. Right now, I think the Hunter Ed legislation to which they are currently bound by is incomplete and is selling new hunters short.
Fortunate are those who have family, friends or mentors who are there when they need them.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Salavee

What you state is true but that was then. Now is different.-very different as you, no doubt, can see. Society has changed and laws have changed. Sure, there are some kids in todays world that are fortunate enough today to be raised in that older style environment. You, I and many others on this forum were introduced to firearms, shooting and hunting that way .. but that was in an era that is now long gone.

Salavee, What makes you think that? I know plenty of kids around here that shoot pigeons in the barn with a pellet gun and hunt rabbits and grouse with a .22. It's not unusual to see a coyote rifle leaning behind the back door ready to take care of business as required. It hasn't changed all that much from when I was a kid.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Salavee, What makes you think that? I know plenty of kids around here that shoot pigeons in the barn with a pellet gun and hunt rabbits and grouse with a .22. It's not unusual to see a coyote rifle leaning behind the back door ready to take care of business as required. It hasn't changed all that much from when I was a kid.

?? .. you just agreed with what I said .."Sure, there are some kids in todays world that are fortunate enough today to be raised in that older style environment.

I also said that society and laws have changed.

[HunterDave]

Salavee, what I don't understand is what you mean about "older style environment"? What I'm saying is that it is not an older style environment or way of living. Maybe in the area where you live things have changed due to urban sprawl or whatever, but the farther North that you go from Edmonton firearms are a big part of kids lives. The lifestyle hasn't changed, it always has been, and it still is.

[nube]

Typical todays society.... Make enough rules you can't do a dam thing or look over your shoulder without doing something wrong or have to take another course or add more to the plate.
The online course teaches you the basics. Keeps you safe. What more do some of you want? Teaching a wide range of ages as well. A 10-12 year old kid isn't going to learn the same as an adult.
Most kids if left on their own to muddle through it won't cut it on their own. The rest of the teaching is up to the adults in the field.....

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Salavee, what I don't understand is what you mean about "older style environment"? What I'm saying is that it is not an older style environment or way of living. Maybe in the area where you live things have changed due to urban sprawl or whatever, but the farther North that you go from Edmonton firearms are a big part of kids lives. The lifestyle hasn't changed, it always has been, and it still is.

.. and those that are still able to do that would be the fortunate ones. However not everyone lives north of ..wherever?

I do understand what you're saying and I certainly support those that still choose to carry on the traditional ways. I started that way myself in the early '50s and I raised my kids that way.
Sometime, between then and now S--t happened. Society has changed and firearm laws have changed, unfortunately making many of those older ways illegal today. I'm not a big fan of the way things are. Just trying to be a bit practical by suggesting the less fortunate new hunters, wherever they may be located ,should have better Hunter Ed knowledge base to start from... . However, I could be OTL on that. Just saying.

[HunterDave]

A Hunter Safety Course is already available for those who aren't accustomed to a "traditional" lifestyle. Why do you think that training should be mandatory for those that are?

https://protrain.hs.llnwd.net/e1/sit...r%20Master.pdf

[Salavee]

I don't think that. I think it's the Gov't that thinks that.
Aren't all new hunters supposed to pass the Hunter Ed exam?
All I'm suggesting is that if they are compelled to take the Hunter Ed Course, make it a more comprehensive one.
The AHEIA Camps are great .. but a $400.00 option