Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[Dr Death]

Again, we put forth a resolution. It was voted down. And so it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with ANY of the current proposed changes. The only reason we did so was because we were already aware changes were coming. Ram Crazy, perhaps you will wish there was only a five year wait between sheep as it may end up a 5-10 year wait for a draw and a 3-10 year wait beteen sheep!

[walking buffalo]

Back to real Meat of the matter.

Has anyone recieved any information regarding the data being used to justify these proposals? I know some here have obtained some information. Please share.


I wish some of our F&W biologists would spread the wealth on the data paid for by the Citizens of Alberta.

As a side question, How many F&W biologists killed a ram last year? I have heard first hand that several hunts were very successful. That's great. However, I do cringe at the thought of our Biologists possibly using govenment data for hunting purposes when the data is not available to the public, especially when there is such serious issues being marketed.

Welcome to the Dark Side....

Having being involved in several sheep aeiral surveys, I can attest to the fact that the recon from sheep observed on winter range is pretty well useless when planning a fall hunt. Personally, I'm glad a few of our biologists are out there hunting

[LongDraw]

Does anyone know how they count rams on Winter Range to determine they are 4/5 curl?

I always understood that they flew the winter ranges and just counted "rams". I was told by a biologist that when it comes to the count a ram was an obvious male observed from a helicopter, 3.5 yr old and 8+ yr old rams being counted the same as too difficult to tell if "legal" or age from the air?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Does anyone know how they count rams on Winter Range to determine they are 4/5 curl?

I always understood that they flew the winter ranges and just counted "rams". I was told by a biologist that when it comes to the count a ram was an obvious male observed from a helicopter, 3.5 yr old and 8+ yr old rams being counted the same as too difficult to tell if "legal" or age from the air?

Most are done from the air and determining legality on "rough" days can be tough but it's not that difficult on "smooth" days. I've been along on a number of the flights and with good conditions you can get a pretty accurate count, especially with image stabilizing binos. I'd be more concern about the timing of the counts. It seems some years they get done later than they should and then many of the sheep may have moved off the winter range and it gives a false picture of population trends. Look at the graph above for the Clearwater. There's no way populations are going up and down 40% every two years as indicated for the last 10 years on the graph.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Having being involved in several sheep aeiral surveys, I can attest to the fact that the recon from sheep observed on winter range is pretty well useless when planning a fall hunt. Personally, I'm glad a few of our biologists are out there hunting

You missed.


I didn't express the government info was limited to Winter Aerial surveys.


I congrantulated honestly each Bio hunter on their Ram success. These are people that have access to detailed harvest data, secured government and government contracted research, plus government paid time in the hills.

I'm glad that we have Bios hunting Sheep.

Where I am PO'ed is that these same Bios will not step up to the plate and make sure the Public has access to the same data, in particular for public input to such a serious concern regarding supposed "over-hunting" of Rams and the proposed solutions.


The number one reason why I left the Biology career was my inability to be dictated to by "Superiors".
Probably the right move for all involved.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by southunter

I think too many guys are looking at the number of sheep and or rams in the population as the perceived problem. From the data we can see the populations and number of rams has stayed consistent.

It was mentioned by sheephunter in post #287 that SRD said the problem was the reduced mass and horn length of the rams being killed over time. This would tell me that the rams with the fast growing genetics are being harvested and the smaller slower growing rams are left to do the breeding amplifying the problem with each generation. Perhaps that is why they are trying to change something now is in order to protect those good genes?

This concept "hunting induced horn size reduction in sheep" is a concept put forward by David Coltman.
SELECTION AND GENETIC (CO)VARIANCE IN BIGHORN SHEEP
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...volution05.pdf

Coltman's conclusion were countered by several associates, and proven to be false.
Bighorns and Little Horns Revisited
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf
Is Rapid Horn Growth Associated with Increased or Decreased Longevity?
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...hr%20FINAL.pdf


Coltman is now being funded by the ACA in a continued effort to prove his theory, this time using genetic markers. In the ecology world, there is a push to prove "Trophy HUnting" is detrimental to the population. The continued use of the flawed Coltman 2003 Paper is popular as it leads further Biased research towards the agenda of eliminating hunting of Mature animals.

Genetic linkage map of a wild genome: genomic structure, recombination and sexual dimorphism in bighorn sheep
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/524/abstract
Joshua Miller / David Coltman,University of Alberta,
A conservation genomic assessment of bighorn sheep harvesting
http://www.acabiodiversity.ca/archiv...011AwardYr.pdf


I am disappointed that Anne Hubbs used the Coltman paper in her presentation, yet she ignores several papers that proved Coltman wrong. This selective harvest of data is very concerning.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

This concept "hunting induced horn size reduction in sheep" is a concept put forward by David Coltman.
SELECTION AND GENETIC (CO)VARIANCE IN BIGHORN SHEEP
http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/p...volution05.pdf

Coltman's conclusion were countered by several associates, and proven to be false.
Bighorns and Little Horns Revisited
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...rt%20FINAL.pdf
Is Rapid Horn Growth Associated with Increased or Decreased Longevity?
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...hr%20FINAL.pdf


Coltman is now being funded by the ACA in a continued effort to prove his theory, this time using genetic markers. In the ecology world, there is a push to prove "Trophy HUnting" is detrimental to the population. The continued use of the flawed Coltman 2003 Paper is popular as it leads further Biased research towards the agenda of eliminating hunting of Mature animals.

Genetic linkage map of a wild genome: genomic structure, recombination and sexual dimorphism in bighorn sheep
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/11/524/abstract
Joshua Miller / David Coltman,University of Alberta,
A conservation genomic assessment of bighorn sheep harvesting
http://www.acabiodiversity.ca/archiv...011AwardYr.pdf


I am disappointed that Anne Hubbs used the Coltman paper in her presentation, yet she ignores several papers that proved Coltman wrong. This selective harvest of data is very concerning.

The B&C record book kinda pokes a big hole in Coltman's theory as well..

[Single Malt]

Hey all,

Here is an article done by Bill Wishart on horn circumference/size over time. He compares data from the 60's to data in the 2000's. It is a good read. Enjoy.

Single Malt

[Single Malt]

I just saw that the same article is linked above. Sorry for the double post...

[Dr Death]

This may have nothing to do with this discussion, but there have been 5 rams taken in the Crowsnest lake area in the past week. All First Nation kills.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dr Death

This may have nothing to do with this discussion, but there have been 5 rams taken in the Crowsnest lake area in the past week. All First Nation kills.

This is exactly who the draw will help.

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a First Nations mud slinging match but it would be interesting to know if SRD has any data regarding their harvest trends say over the last 40 years. It is another piece of the puzzle for sure.

[drake]

Although natives don't need a tag to kill a sheep, do they still have to register it?.....

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Dr Death

This may have nothing to do with this discussion, but there have been 5 rams taken in the Crowsnest lake area in the past week. All First Nation kills.

I hear tell first nations are in over 25 rams deep this winter so far down there.. I also hear tell SRD is shi*ting bricks over it..

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Hopefully this doesn't turn into a First Nations mud slinging match but it would be interesting to know if SRD has any data regarding their harvest trends say over the last 40 years. It is another piece of the puzzle for sure.

We wouldn't dream of it.

Let the intellectuals continue their chit chat over tea. Carry on good chap.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by chuck

We wouldn't dream of it.

Let the intellectuals continue their chit chat over tea. Carry on good chap.

Great input as always..

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Great input as always..

I've said more in five words on this thread than the rest of it combined. Should have put it on a pie chart I guess.

[drake]

Originally Posted by drake

Although natives don't need a tag to kill a sheep, do they still have to register it?.....

the reason i ask is quite obvious......if they don't need to register their heads how do biologists account for the harvest? Are we talking 5 rams a year or 50? This is a legit question....

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by drake

Although natives don't need a tag to kill a sheep, do they still have to register it?.....

Yes, Treaty harvest of bighorn sheep in Alberta must be registered.

[pika]

and good luck getting a conviction.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I hear tell first nations are in over 25 rams deep this winter so far down there.. I also hear tell SRD is shi*ting bricks over it..

The government could fix this problem as well, close all the forestry trunk road accesses and the pass behind crowsnest lake after November.

[whiskeywillow]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I hear tell first nations are in over 25 rams deep this winter so far down there.. I also hear tell SRD is shi*ting bricks over it..

..25 rams this winter??? ...ONE area? And WE now have our rights to hunting sheep in jeapordy??

...someone, somewhere in politics has to grow some balls

That is ridiculous.

[spurly]

The rams are being shot from highway #3. in the ditch. road closures, are not gonna help here.Only taking sheep off of the subsistence list will.

[stringer]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I hear tell first nations are in over 25 rams deep this winter so far down there.. I also hear tell SRD is shi*ting bricks over it..

where are you getting your information from,just curious

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Yes, Treaty harvest of bighorn sheep in Alberta must be registered.

I'm hearing that they don't ? Not picking on you here, just trying to find out forsure!

Why would a federal law, be up held by a provincial law??

If they truely dont have too, then there is no way to qualify how many bighorns are harvested by treaty natives!

Sorry for the side track !

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I'm hearing that they don't ? Not picking on you here, just trying to find out forsure!

Why would a federal law, be up held by a provincial law??

If they truely dont have too, then there is no way to qualify how many bighorns are harvested by treaty natives!

Sorry for the side track !

Big Potty is pickin' on me again.


Hunting By Treaty Indians in Alberta - see Registration of Harvest.

http://srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/F...ns-Jul2009.pdf


"Why would a federal law, be up held by a provincial law??

[flare]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I hear tell first nations are in over 25 rams deep this winter so far down there.. I also hear tell SRD is shi*ting bricks over it..

WOW, if thats true, thats crazy. Looks the government needs to change some things as to what animals can be harvested for subsistence (if thats even possible). I know if I was hunting for food to SURVIVE I would NOT be killing Sheep. I don't know what all the rules are involving First Nations hunting, but 25 rams seams to be excessive, do you really think 25 different individuals hunted them, or can individuals kill unlimited amounts ? How many sheep can you eat in this short of time?

Sorry, but I am not very "politically correct".

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I guess the thing to remember is that there are three options on the table, I definitely wouldn't say two of them benefit or disadvantage outfitters anymore than residents and the third would only benefit them if they did not see a similar 50% reduction in allocations like residents would face. There's alot of information missing in the three proposals to allow anyone to make an informed decision right now. We need a lot more answers to questions. I'd also like to know why the numbers used to predict wait times in a potential draw were so sugar coated. SRD did not paint an accurate picture of a draw scenario...far from it actually. And, they have not indicated if outfitter allocation numbers would be reduced by a similar percentage if residents go on draw. We need to keep asking why they used the numbers they did and what will happen to outfitter allocations if resident opportunity is reduced 50%. It's unfortunate that outfitter allocations will we set before a decision is made regarding changes to sheep hunting as one has such a profound impact on the other.

I have not been able to obtain the number of Rams harvested under Treaty rights. SRD obviously does have this information, at least for rams that have been registered. Non registered rams killed by Treaty holders would be considered Illegal Harvest, another number that needs to be looked in to.


As mentioned earlier, APOS is presently in negotiations for the next 5 year Allocation agreement for 2013-2017. I suspect APOS and the GOV will get this completed before any new sheep hunting restrictions are implemented.

This is a recent letter from our Ex SRD minister Mel Knight. Note that he states there is an Allocation Guideline of 10% of harvest going to Outfitters.





1997-2007 Licenced Ram harvest. Residents averaged 78.3%, Outfitters averaged 21.%.

According to the Allocation guideline, Outfitters are already taking twice as many Rams as they should be.

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/N...%20alberta.pdf

Over the last 10 years the number of resident licenses purchased for trophy sheep has averaged 1800 with about 85 additional licenses allocated to outfitters for non-residents (Figure 3). Annual average resident and non-resident harvest has been approximately 141 and 39 respectively

That's interesting. When I was talking with Gordon Burton the other day, he indicated that outfitters were entitled to 20% of allowable harvest. He pegged the allowable harvest of bighorn rams at 250, putting them under the 20%. You have to think that allowable number will drop in 2012 if SRD is as worried about sheep as they claim. I wonder why Knight used the 10% number?