New allowed big game calibers in Sask

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And bullet construction is far more important than SD, especially with the smaller calibers. A 50gr TTSX is going to penetrate a lot more than a 60gr v-max, even though the SD is less.

agree it's hugely important, to choose appropriate for game intended for most reliable results...you may get lucky and catch lungs with a v-max on a moose a few times but you'd be far more reliable in more situations choosing something that will hold together better...

what i'm trying to say here is the v-max may fly through the air with a higher s.d. but it's rate of diminishing s.d. will be so much higher than that of the ttsx that the ttsx will very quickly have a higher s.d. and therefore go deeper through the animal......

the only way this works is comparing same bullet construction for game intended....which is going deeper the 60 gr v-max or 50 gr v-max, 60 gr ttsx vs 50 gr ttsx? 60 gr solid vs 50 gr solid?

these discussions cannot predict with 100% accuracy the performance on game as chuck says, and i agree totally with that, we are simply using these figures (weight/s.d./velocity/caliber/ft/lbs) as parts of equations to compare to see what we may want next, to see what would be a minimum personal standard, to see whatever...this is all for comparing purposes only, hypothetical mostly, but enough good numbers there to actually predict pretty reliably what's most likely to happen in the field with a given bullet at a given impact velocity with a given construction type

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

i tried to learn more about momentum, momentum densities etc. but seem to come around to junk math so to speak, it's too tied into the s.d./velocity equation and doesn't seem to show a difference that explains why something longer and skinnier of the same weight goes deeper as well as s.d. and impact velocity does, i have looked for more info on this a few times but nothing that you'd want in the specs page of a bullet

You can do all the calculations you want. but they can't show you how much a bullet will penetrate. Factors such as weight retention and frontal area of the expanded bullet can't be calculated, and they are huge factors where penetration is concerned. As far as momentum goes, more velocity means more momentum, but more velocity can also mean more expansion, or more fragmentation, both of which reduce penetration. Therefore more momentum, can result in less penetration.

[Pathfinder76]

Sectional Density can be applied to solids to some degree. That’s it, that’s all.

[Pathfinder76]

All of these bullets are the same, all came from the same rifle shot into the same elk from roughly the same distance, and all would have been fatal. Every one of them now has a different sectional density. Add lead to the equation and that magnifies the issue.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

You do realize that expansion happens at the beginning of a wound channel and not the end right? So right when SD becomes important you alter it dramatically. In medium that never produces consistent results. Ever.

you haven't been picking up what i've been putting down, at all

not sure i can explain rate of diminishing s.d. another way...of course i realize that the s.d. is a changing variable based on construction type and that s.d. only actually becomes important after the hide, we use figures to compare, this is to predict...as accurately as we can...the most likely performance of a bullet, on game, using a multitude of common figures like weight/velocity/energy/s.d./b.c./construction type etc.

penetration does not exist without two things, s.d. and velocity, it doesn't matter what the s.d. is on the way to the animal, s.d. is a combo of weight/frontal area (weight alone doesn't tell the story...read; slap in the face vs poke in the eye). Weight needs velocity and lets call it aerodynamics to push through something, the skinnier it is the easier it pushes through something, the heavier it is for said skinny...the deeper it goes (that i suppose could be argued as momentum...but really it is higher s.d. so it covers momentum arguments).

i do believe a bit more expertise could come in to explain better the relationship of goes faster stops faster vs goes slower stops slower, drag vs velocity whether through air/meat and how exponential that drag goes up with velocity...so there's an efficiency and relationship there that is at play i'm sure but it's been awhile since i dug that deep into this, i just remember something about the rule....faster it goes faster it stops, slower it goes slower it stops...to me that's the only combo missing from our little predictions formulas, not momentum

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

All of these bullets are the same, all came from the same rifle shot into the same elk from roughly the same distance, and all would have been fatal. Every one of them now has a different sectional density. Add lead to the equation and that magnifies the issue.

totally agree, but you can measure it, and what i'm saying is....the s.d./velocity relationship (whatever it is or changes too) is penetration, end of story

not weight alone, not velocity alone

now if those ttsx had another half inch length to them and another 40 grains for example....would you have even found them in the animal? the s.d. would have been that much higher?

so if one of those bullets was a 140 gr and another was a 160, do you think, in most similar situations the 160 would go deeper or not? clearly the s.d. was adequate and the impact velocity...will not debate that at all

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

Sectional Density can be applied to solids to some degree. That’s it, that’s all.

no way, will never agree with that chuck

you can measure the s.d. of those recovered bullets and you can likely recall that load, the distance the elk was shot and come up with an impact velocity

and you can then find any other caliber ttsx with a similar starting s.d. and predict a very similar performance with same impact velocity...

that's the point of this, you can't predict closer performance any other way, using ft/lbs is pointless.....impact velocity and s.d. are the numbers

if you want to know what your 70 gr .223 is going to do to a deer at 300 yards with a ttsx or bonded bullet for that matter(any delayed controlled expansion)....you have a ton of ttsx data from your own experience now to draw on from your other cartridges that you can actually make comparisons, your finished s.d.'s don't matter as you know the initial s.d.'s are enough with that construction of bullet, so now you can say i killed that bull at 400 yards with not a .270 but an s.d. of .248 and impact velocity of 1950 fps and no issues....now you can reduce any cartridge/caliber down to these basic numbers and predict what will do the job similar to what you like

i have no doubt your .223 will smash deer if they allow it one day, and when you run math on the new 90-100 gr .224 cal bullets you can find some cartridges that will turn them into 3rd class game capable too, the penetration will be there with delayed controlled and enough impact velocity you'll see how far with what cartridge you're likely to duplicate results you already know and have done

[Stinky Coyote]

chuck, if you're interested in this topic, as i am too, you have a lot of dead critters and you're very detail oriented, i bet the data you could throw into a spreadsheet about all the cartridges you've killed with, the bullet constructions, the velocity at impact etc. that'd you'd bear out some interesting info if you just reduced it down to s.d./impact velocity

you'd see why your sub-magnums have done just as well as your magnums, or bettered them in many cases, most of our stuff is overkill anyway so it may be hard to see where your minimums may actually be but i bet you've pushed the limits of cartridges or bullet construction types a few times

you know it's not the diam. of the bullet that's important and you know the energy is not important....so what has made the smaller slower cartridges so effective for you through your career at this?

my argument is that the answer is a 1,2,3 formula... s.d./impact velocity....and bullet construction, in that order

would love to see that chart someday, seriously, not to argue, i have no interest in proving you or anyone wrong about anything, that's not fun for me, it's a knowledge thing, i'm trying to learn and or add, that's fun for me, that's all, you have a ton of data in your hunt life that would be neat to see through the s.d./velocity/construction type eyes imo

because of this i no longer view cartridges any other way, to me they reduce to these numbers, it doesn't matter the name of the cartridge, doesn't matter the diam. or ft/lbs etc. etc. so i reduce every single one down to these same raw little figures and then i can see what's most likely to be adequate for my tastes for a given situation

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You can do all the calculations you want. but they can't show you how much a bullet will penetrate. Factors such as weight retention and frontal area of the expanded bullet can't be calculated, and they are huge factors where penetration is concerned. As far as momentum goes, more velocity means more momentum, but more velocity can also mean more expansion, or more fragmentation, both of which reduce penetration. Therefore more momentum, can result in less penetration.

calculations do show you how much a bullet will penetrate, mostly
they can be calculated, mostly
agree, weight/frontal area are huge factors, it's s.d. you're talking about (starting/finished/etc.)
agree again, more velocity equals more penetration given same s.d.(expansion stays same)
agree again, more velocity creating more expansion will diminishing s.d. faster will reduce penetration
last point is about momentum, agree, as you're saying it...i just read it differently, it's the same as the point above, more velocity creating more expansion which will result in less penetration...you just said it a different way and how i read it is....rate of diminishing s.d. is increased by added velocity, therefore less penetration (ie; a ballistic tip from same gun impacting a deer at 100 yards and exploding without adequate penetration vs impacting deer at 800 yards and not expanding at all but going right through the deer....wildly different s.d.'s at play here, nothing else, not momentum, momentum is just a slight part of what's already covered in s.d. with velocity combined)

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You can do all the calculations you want. but they can't show you how much a bullet will penetrate. Factors such as weight retention and frontal area of the expanded bullet can't be calculated, and they are huge factors where penetration is concerned. As far as momentum goes, more velocity means more momentum, but more velocity can also mean more expansion, or more fragmentation, both of which reduce penetration. Therefore more momentum, can result in less penetration.

More momentum can result in less penetration ? Can you provide an instance where that applies ?

[Stinky Coyote]

we may have responded at same time, see the post above yours, i answered it

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

we may have responded at same time, see the post above yours, i answered it

or this will help, would you agree a 700 nitro has more momentum than a 6.5 swede? yet the swede pushing a 160 solid will out penetrate the 700 nitro...

Just a FYI .. momentum is mass in motion. In your example above, use a solid in both cartridges. Always .. apples to apples. So you really didn't answer it.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Just a FYI .. momentum is mass in motion. In your example above, use a solid in both cartridges. Always .. apples to apples. So you really didn't answer it.

oh but i did

700 nitro express vs 6.5 mannlicher, solid or not...as long as they are the same construction of bullet, just follow for a second, it will show you momentum answer

700 nitro express 1000 gr solid at 2000 fps mv, s.d. .292 momentum 285
6.5 Mannlicher estimated minimum mv 2067 fps with 160 gr, s.d. .328, 1518 ft/lbs and momentum only 50.

Can't find the links right now but have read that while the 700 nitro was designed for elephant hunting it would sometimes knock them out and bullet not get through the foot of skull to the brain pan. Whereas the the little 6.5 could.

So there's examples all around that show you momentum, including ft/lbs, are largely useless in comparing penetration ability. They will show you recoil energy though...the 700 nitro has 160 ft/lbs recoil energy in an 18 lb gun, the 6.5 mannlicher will be around 10-11 ft/lbs in a standard weight hunting rifle. That's a good way to use those figures. More momentum means more likely to land on your azz after you pull the trigger.

Back to those elephant brain pans. From recollection, to get through that foot of skull and reliably into the brain pans they determined that more velocity with higher s.d. was better than more energy and less s.d. Reducing it down further, they got it figured to you want over .3 s.d. and impact velocities over 2000 fps. It's a fascinating topic but relates to our own game and choices too.



The 6.5 Mannlicher...

"In the hands of the legendary African ivory hunter W.D.M. “Karomojo” Bell, the diminutive round proved deadly on elephant. He wrote:

"I once owned a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine of about 5-1/2 pounds that was simply lightning on elephant. I only once failed to kill an elephant with the 6.5 carbine and that was because of a faulty round.”

While some have dismissed Bell’s experience because he favored brain shots, a few have noted that an elephant’s skull is approximately a foot thick above the brow ridge, making extreme penetration essential regardless of perfect shot placement.

Frederick Courtney Selous also wrote of using the Mannlicher with good results on elephant. Kenya’s first game warden, Blaney Percival, was another enthusiastic proponent."

the above wasn't possible without s.d. and impact velocity...period

david vs goliath

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

oh but i did

700 nitro express vs 6.5 mannlicher, solid or not...as long as they are the same construction of bullet, just follow for a second, it will show you momentum answer

700 nitro express 1000 gr solid at 2000 fps mv, s.d. .292 momentum 285
6.5 Mannlicher estimated minimum mv 2067 fps with 160 gr, s.d. .328, 1518 ft/lbs and momentum only 50.

Can't find the links right now but have read that while the 700 nitro was designed for elephant hunting it would sometimes knock them out and bullet not get through the foot of skull to the brain pan. Whereas the the little 6.5 could.

So there's examples all around that show you momentum, including ft/lbs, are largely useless in comparing penetration ability. They will show you recoil energy though...the 700 nitro has 160 ft/lbs recoil energy in an 18 lb gun, the 6.5 mannlicher will be around 10-11 ft/lbs in a standard weight hunting rifle. That's a good way to use those figures. More momentum means more likely to land on your azz after you pull the trigger.

Back to those elephant brain pans. From recollection, to get through that foot of skull and reliably into the brain pans they determined that more velocity with higher s.d. was better than more energy and less s.d. Reducing it down further, they got it figured to you want over .3 s.d. and impact velocities over 2000 fps. It's a fascinating topic but relates to our own game and choices too.



The 6.5 Mannlicher...

"In the hands of the legendary African ivory hunter W.D.M. “Karomojo” Bell, the diminutive round proved deadly on elephant. He wrote:

"I once owned a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine of about 5-1/2 pounds that was simply lightning on elephant. I only once failed to kill an elephant with the 6.5 carbine and that was because of a faulty round.”

While some have dismissed Bell’s experience because he favored brain shots, a few have noted that an elephant’s skull is approximately a foot thick above the brow ridge, making extreme penetration essential regardless of perfect shot placement.

Frederick Courtney Selous also wrote of using the Mannlicher with good results on elephant. Kenya’s first game warden, Blaney Percival, was another enthusiastic proponent."

the above wasn't possible without s.d. and impact velocity...period

david vs goliath

With all due respect Stinky it looks like things are going sideways again.

I didn't ask what so & so did to an Elephant. I simply want to learn what
role momentum plays in the penetration scenario. Can you help me ?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

oh but i did

700 nitro express vs 6.5 mannlicher, solid or not...as long as they are the same construction of bullet, just follow for a second, it will show you momentum answer

700 nitro express 1000 gr solid at 2000 fps mv, s.d. .292 momentum 285
6.5 Mannlicher estimated minimum mv 2067 fps with 160 gr, s.d. .328, 1518 ft/lbs and momentum only 50.

Can't find the links right now but have read that while the 700 nitro was designed for elephant hunting it would sometimes knock them out and bullet not get through the foot of skull to the brain pan. Whereas the the little 6.5 could.

So there's examples all around that show you momentum, including ft/lbs, are largely useless in comparing penetration ability. They will show you recoil energy though...the 700 nitro has 160 ft/lbs recoil energy in an 18 lb gun, the 6.5 mannlicher will be around 10-11 ft/lbs in a standard weight hunting rifle. That's a good way to use those figures. More momentum means more likely to land on your azz after you pull the trigger.

Back to those elephant brain pans. From recollection, to get through that foot of skull and reliably into the brain pans they determined that more velocity with higher s.d. was better than more energy and less s.d. Reducing it down further, they got it figured to you want over .3 s.d. and impact velocities over 2000 fps. It's a fascinating topic but relates to our own game and choices too.



The 6.5 Mannlicher...

"In the hands of the legendary African ivory hunter W.D.M. “Karomojo” Bell, the diminutive round proved deadly on elephant. He wrote:

"I once owned a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine of about 5-1/2 pounds that was simply lightning on elephant. I only once failed to kill an elephant with the 6.5 carbine and that was because of a faulty round.”

While some have dismissed Bell’s experience because he favored brain shots, a few have noted that an elephant’s skull is approximately a foot thick above the brow ridge, making extreme penetration essential regardless of perfect shot placement.

Frederick Courtney Selous also wrote of using the Mannlicher with good results on elephant. Kenya’s first game warden, Blaney Percival, was another enthusiastic proponent."

the above wasn't possible without s.d. and impact velocity...period

david vs goliath

And what type of bullet was he shooting?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

And what type of bullet was he shooting?

dead horse it is...as you're not hearing it

in traditional chuck speak...question then, .375 h&h...260 gr accubond or 300 gr accubond, elephant about to stomp your azz...which barrel do you want to pull the trigger on and why?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

More momentum can result in less penetration ? Can you provide an instance where that applies ?

100 yard shot where a bullet fully expands, and then sheds 40% of it's weight, and does not exit, vs a 400 yard shot where the bullet falls below the velocity required for expansion, so it maintains it's shape and weight, and pencils through like a solid.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

With all due respect Stinky it looks like things are going sideways again.

I didn't ask what so & so did to an Elephant. I simply want to learn what
role momentum plays in the penetration scenario. Can you help me ?

i honestly was trying to help with that most extreme of examples, it's actually what led me to learn more about this topic as for a long time i understood as many do, more weight, bigger diameters, and more powder was always the answer

then you see stuff like bell and his elephants...1100 of them and how in the sam heck were these pea shooters getting it done? game changing info there

the momentum info is there

play with it a bit, google momentum calculator, sectional density calculator, etc. etc. you can input the known's from people including yourself who've actually killed various things with these various bullets at various velocities and you can see that some things are largely irrelevant, momentum is one of them...s.d. encompasses it

it's about efficiency for me, and i seem to be obsessed with logistics

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

calculations do show you how much a bullet will penetrate, mostly
they can be calculated, mostly
agree, weight/frontal area are huge factors, it's s.d. you're talking about (starting/finished/etc.)
agree again, more velocity equals more penetration given same s.d.(expansion stays same)
agree again, more velocity creating more expansion will diminishing s.d. faster will reduce penetration
last point is about momentum, agree, as you're saying it...i just read it differently, it's the same as the point above, more velocity creating more expansion which will result in less penetration...you just said it a different way and how i read it is....rate of diminishing s.d. is increased by added velocity, therefore less penetration (ie; a ballistic tip from same gun impacting a deer at 100 yards and exploding without adequate penetration vs impacting deer at 800 yards and not expanding at all but going right through the deer....wildly different s.d.'s at play here, nothing else, not momentum, momentum is just a slight part of what's already covered in s.d. with velocity combined)

Your theory only works on a non expanding bullet, where the shape and bullet weight remain constant. However, with an expanding bullet, the SD will change significantly, and it may not do that in a uniform matter. The frontal area may increase pretty much instantly, or it may expand more uniform. It may expand and remain expanded, or it may mushroom, and then the petals fold back, or even break off so the SD increases and then decreases. As well, the bullet may fragment, reducing the frontal area, the weight, or both. You can only measure the unfired bullet, and the recovered bullet, you cant measure it as it passes through the media, so you can't calculate the SD except before the bullet is fired, and after it is recovered.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

100 yard shot where a bullet fully expands, and then sheds 40% of it's weight, and does not exit, vs a 400 yard shot where the bullet falls below the velocity required for expansion, so it maintains it's shape and weight, and pencils through like a solid.

not to jump in, ok i am but this is exactly right imo

i tend to take it a bit further with the 'why though' and that's where i find out it's the s.d. that's diminishing so rapidly that's halting the penetration just as rapidly (a direct relationship) and where even though the 400 yard shot penciled through, the s.d. stayed high and therefore could get through with much less velocity (and or momentum if staying on topic)

all how we look at it, most of us are seeing the same things, just different view....i'm just trying to show the most accurate way to look at it that we currently have, by everything i've been able to find on the subject

not trying to feel good about myself here

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Your theory only works on a non expanding bullet, where the shape and bullet weight remain constant. However, with an expanding bullet, the SD will change significantly, and it may not do that in a uniform matter. The frontal area may increase pretty much instantly, or it may expand more uniform. It may expand and remain expanded, or it may mushroom, and then the petals fold back, or even break off so the SD increases and then decreases. As well, the bullet may fragment, reducing the frontal area, the weight, or both. You can only measure the unfired bullet, and the recovered bullet, you cant measure it as it passes through the media, so you can't calculate the SD except before the bullet is fired, and after it is recovered.

yes, as i've said many times, really hard to measure but you could, we don't need that...we do it already by choosing which type of bullet construction we prefer, controlled expansion (rapid vs delayed), frangible fragmenting etc. and how each reacts to the various mediums and angles of going through animals

we are simply comparing cartridges, i guess if you shoot 1100 elephants in the face primarily you have a pretty consistent medium from which to learn these things too...so we can take the data already collected for a century or more and simplify, and use to make comparisons...

starting s.d. of any bullet we use is irrelevant as chuck says, as we cannot reliably accurately measure finished s.d. or rate of diminishing s.d. through animals so we compare initial s.d. instead and known bullet constructions for game intended, so it's a very valid number whether it's a solid bullet or not! chuck isn't getting that part, we know it's going to change, we know approximately how much it will change (lots or little) for given impact velocities(distances)...

we can fairly accurately anticipate how one bullet from one cartridge will compare to another...or as i do it, i already have my s.d. and min impact preferences determined, bullet construction determined, by game intended, then it's easy to see where any cartridge will take me for my goals, max distance potential, max game size potential, etc.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

100 yard shot where a bullet fully expands, and then sheds 40% of it's weight, and does not exit, vs a 400 yard shot where the bullet falls below the velocity required for expansion, so it maintains it's shape and weight, and pencils through like a solid.

That is the same bullet at different terminal velocities so of course the bullets will behave differently. In terms of energy expended that makes sense, in terms of penetration not so much.

Try using two bullets of the same construction - one of 150 gr at a terminal vel of 2000 fps and the other a 250 gr at a term vel of
1600, both meeting the same resistance. Penetration ?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Try using two bullets of the same construction - one of 150 gr at a terminal vel of 2000 fps and the other a 250 gr at a term vel of
1600, both meeting the same resistance. Penetration ?

can i play too? same diam. bullet?

[Sask Bearman]

As a Sask hunter, I am left shaking my head at this new rule. 32mm case length??? What next??

[Stinky Coyote]

ok, .264 diam then

150 at 2000 fps is 1332 ft/lbs s.d. .307 (momentum 42)
250 at 1600 fps is 1421 ft/lbs s.d. .512 (momentum 57)

stands to reason by using the ft/lbs that could be same cartridge firing those two bullets as the b.c. of the 250 gr will be a lot higher than the 150 so higher retained energy down range...

so what you're asking is...momentum the factor that gets the 250 grain deeper, or s.d., or unsure the 250 is going deeper or not?

another interesting way to look at it, right on

i have the 250 gr going deeper, as i have momentum encompassed by s.d.

how do you have it and why?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

can i play too? same diam. bullet?

Same construction, different weights, different terminal velocities.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Same construction, different weights, different terminal velocities.

see above

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

dead horse it is...as you're not hearing it

in traditional chuck speak...question then, .375 h&h...260 gr accubond or 300 gr accubond, elephant about to stomp your azz...which barrel do you want to pull the trigger on and why?

He is shooting SOLIDS. SD has some validity with solids.

And bloody well neither. And here is exactly where your SD arguement fall on its face. I’ll take a 260 gr A-Frame over a 260 gr accubond for a body shot on an elephant and yet they have the same sectional density.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

ok, .264 diam then

150 at 2000 fps is 1332 ft/lbs s.d. .307 (momentum 42)
250 at 1600 fps is 1421 ft/lbs s.d. .512 (momentum 57)

stands to reason by using the ft/lbs that could be same cartridge firing those two bullets as the b.c. of the 250 gr will be a lot higher than the 150 so higher retained energy down range...

so what you're asking is...momentum the factor that gets the 250 grain deeper, or s.d., or unsure the 250 is going deeper or not?

another interesting way to look at it, right on

i have the 250 gr going deeper, as i have momentum encompassed by s.d.

how do you have it and why?

The SD of any bullet of any given diameter and weight is constant. If you decrease the caliber with the same weight you gain SD, and vice versa.
What I'm suggesting is that with two identical bullets of different calibers and different SD's, the heavier bullet will carry more momentum and thus more penetration. Even with the same or similar sd's.

eg: 30-06/150 gr/2950mv/ 2810 ME / SD .226/ 62.4 lb -fs momentum

vs

45/70 / 300 gr / 1880 mv / 2355 ME/ SD .212/ 80.6 lb-fs momentum

If we enter terminal distance in to the equation the 45/70 would need more velocity but we could use the .458 Win instead of the 45-70.. the basic concept won't change. Just use the same terminal velocity differences at any range. We are not comparing a 45/70 to a 30-06. Just momentum vs penetration.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by chuck

All of these bullets are the same, all came from the same rifle shot into the same elk from roughly the same distance, and all would have been fatal. Every one of them now has a different sectional density. Add lead to the equation and that magnifies the issue.

3 shots Chuck?


Shoulda used an accubond........


Kidding. But seriously, probably shoulda used an accubond