6.5 Grendel - Recovered ELD-M - Large Muley Buck

[gray7mag]

I was contemplating shooting the ELD X or the ELD Match for hunting in my 6.5 Creedmoor. I listened to a podcast from the guys at Gunwerks who have collectively killed thousands of animals between North America and Africa with match bullets and that's what they recommend, the ELD Match. So I developed a load for the 140 grain ELD Match. Since then, between me and two buddies with me, we've killed 2 bears and 3 deer with that rifle and load. One was the largest bodied mule buck I've seen in person. None of them went more than 15 yards and most dropped on the spot. I'd say they are pretty damn effective, and looking at my experience and the collective experience of the Gunwerks guys, I'd say its a winning bullet for game. Good work OP!

Gray

[gray7mag]

Forgot to mention, the ranges. Closest shot was 40 yards on a black bear we called in with a distress call, furthest was 350 yards on a mule doe.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by gray7mag

I was contemplating shooting the ELD X or the ELD Match for hunting in my 6.5 Creedmoor. I listened to a podcast from the guys at Gunwerks who have collectively killed thousands of animals between North America and Africa with match bullets and that's what they recommend, the ELD Match. So I developed a load for the 140 grain ELD Match. Since then, between me and two buddies with me, we've killed 2 bears and 3 deer with that rifle and load. One was the largest bodied mule buck I've seen in person. None of them went more than 15 yards and most dropped on the spot. I'd say they are pretty damn effective, and looking at my experience and the collective experience of the Gunwerks guys, I'd say its a winning bullet for game. Good work OP!

Gray

you have chosen wisely

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by BigJon

I disagree with this. Some bullets, such as modern Nosler ballistic tips 9of some calibers/weights) have a jacket and base that make up half or more of the weight of the bullet. Even with a lost core that's a good size chunk of projectile to continue penetrating and damaging tissue. That design isn't by accident.

I've never been bothered to see jacket/core separation. I've seen it a number of times on all manner of game (including elk and moose) with rib cage shots and shots that broke scapula/humerus on both entry and exit (with bullet recovered under the hide).

I also shoot and kill game with the high weight retention/penetrating bullets (Barnes TSX/TTSX) from time to time.

I am not strongly attached to one or the other, they all work. However I do like the wound channels created by the cup and core 'weight-shedding' type of bullets.

For what it's worth the only big game I have ever hit and lost was a decent whitetail buck that I hit twice, broadside at 150 yards with a 168 TSX from a .30-06. I have to think I hit him well in the chest as it was an easy shot but I never recovered the deer and I just don't know. Followed him a long ways, he bedded down and bled a couple times and eventually I stopped finding blood and lost his tracks amongst other deer tracks.

Other animals killed with that same box were hit and miss type of performance. Good performance on 1 elk (quartering shot through shoulder to rear of rib cage on opposite side at 60 yards) and 1 moose (two shots broadside at 100 yards tucked close to armpit, he stood there wavering around with blood leaking out so I put the second one in and he trotted 15 yards or so and fell over). Two lung shot mule deer didn't travel far but they took awhile to expire. Both had a small hole through their lungs with a small amount of bruising around the wound.

Anyway, I probably veered off topic a bit but what I am getting at is core/jacket separation ain't so bad...haha

For me, it’s just a matter of if it is consistently loosing the cores
Once in a while, ok that can happen
I use the 156gr bergers out of my 6.5x284
I’m not implying they are the best thing in the world
But I’ve had constant results where the core and jacket have stay together on hard impacts. They have worked so well that I took them to the yukon for sheep, moose and grizzly. I did also have a frames loaded up as well. But On a broadside shot, I have to doubt they would have anchored any of the 3

I’ve had similar results as stinky with the 147gr eldm’s out of a creedmoor
I’d call them poor

I just looked at the ballistic tips and they totally changed them since I used them. I don’t think you can compare a hunting ballistic tip to a eldm. The tapered jacket on the ballistic tip will definitely outperform the eldm in terminal performance and weight retention. Might have to look at those again 👍

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

the 123 gr 6.5 does not have crap sd, it has excellent sd for the weight of bullet, the 6.5 line up has always had unusually high sd compared to anything else, so even the lighter 6.5 bullets have fantastic sd compared to all the normal hunting bullets from the usual cartridges

well, since some of us seem to have forgotten the perspective then...

.308, 168gr eld-m, bc .523, sd .253
.264, 123gr eld-m, bc .506, sd .252

45 grain weight difference(26.8% lighter), 0.044" diameter difference(14.3% less diameter)

lots of big game killed with 100 gr partition out of .243 to 300 yards with roughly 2950 fps launch that not too many seem to argue, partition bc .384, sd .242, that's 18.7% less weight than the 123 and 40.5% less than the 168 and 8% less diam than 123 and 21% less than 168, while the .243 partition example is going a whopping 10% faster with 4% less sd than the 123 gr Grendel...while burning 26% more powder

i know both the .243 and Grendel combo's work well and compare well to each other, i'll take the slower heavier fatter Grendel over the faster lighter .243, both will get'r'done, the Grendel just more efficient by doing essentially the same thing with 26% less powder burned and arguably the higher sd of the Grendel 123 gr bullets would be better choice for any 3rd class game opportunities as well as being over 120 grains in weight with larger frontal area that many seem to prefer

the 6.5 Grendel in practical purposes is the 21st century love child of the .243 win & the 30-30, or you could also call it a 6.5 Creedmoor Short, or the baby .308 win

not trying to tout it as an 800 yard elk rig, but anywhere you'd choose a 30-30 or a .243 this will do the job of both nicely, and covers 0-300 yard big game work without breaking a sweat, which is where 98% of it all happens and 95% under 200 yards where it hardly matters at all what you use

Just so you know
Sd is just the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter
A 123gr 6.5 will have a lower sd than a 125 gr 6.5
SD is also considered to be an obsolete metric

[Stinky Coyote]

thanks to those who've congratulated and shared experiences

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9FB5WbKWM

some good data in there about both the 6.5 Grendel hornady factory 123 gr eld-m and 123 gr sst loads

may as well keep resources in the thread

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

SD is also considered to be an obsolete metric

ooh, if there's better comparator for penetration out there do tell please

if i were to want tougher bullets i think i'd go for the 100 gr ttsx over the partition but that partition would be a great choice also, we primarily mostly stick to class 2 game (deer/sheep size) so the eld-m is perfect, we don't chase elk and get the odd moose tag so not enough reason to look for tougher bullets, prefer doing more damage inside a couple feet of penetration

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

ooh, if there's better comparator for penetration out there do tell please

if i were to want tougher bullets i think i'd go for the 100 gr ttsx over the partition but that partition would be a great choice also, we primarily mostly stick to class 2 game (deer/sheep size) so the eld-m is perfect, we don't chase elk and get the odd moose tag so not enough reason to look for tougher bullets, prefer doing more damage inside a couple feet of penetration

Your trying to say that a 140 gr eldm would penetrate the same a 140gr solid?
Same sd

[6.5 shooter]

Marketing is a wonderful thing when half your bullets energy is wasted on the next ridge line .... Each to there own.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Your trying to say that a 140 gr eldm would penetrate the same a 140gr solid?
Same sd

Now your just getting silly

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Your trying to say that a 140 gr eldm would penetrate the same a 140gr solid?
Same sd

no, it's a good comparator assuming some common sense items such as similar bullet profiles(modern spitzer shapes, aerodynamic pointed boat tails) and construction type (rapid controlled expansion or delayed controlled expansion)

the bullets we use all expand at some rate, and as soon as they expand the sd goes down, and it will continue to drop every inch they penetrate as the bullet frontal area changes, so common sense tells you a 140 gr ballistic tip won't penetrate as deep as a 140 gr accubond in same caliber bc/sd etc. but a 123 gr ballistic tip in .264 vs a 168 gr ballistic tip in .308 have nearly identical shape and sd and will penetrate the same depth for same impact velocity, the heavier bullet will dump more energy per inch along the way as the main difference between the two and therefore expect more damage potential internally from the heavier of the two, depth should be same though

so that's where the 6.5 bullets really offer flexibility as they start with such good sd that lets you use more rapid expansion bullets to really dump more energy internally while maintaining good penetration depths, you don't need really tough bullets in 6.5 to do awesome work and you can get away with less powder as well due to this efficiency

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by gray7mag

I was contemplating shooting the ELD X or the ELD Match for hunting in my 6.5 Creedmoor. I listened to a podcast from the guys at Gunwerks who have collectively killed thousands of animals between North America and Africa with match bullets and that's what they recommend, the ELD Match. So I developed a load for the 140 grain ELD Match. Since then, between me and two buddies with me, we've killed 2 bears and 3 deer with that rifle and load. One was the largest bodied mule buck I've seen in person. None of them went more than 15 yards and most dropped on the spot. I'd say they are pretty damn effective, and looking at my experience and the collective experience of the Gunwerks guys, I'd say its a winning bullet for game. Good work OP!

Gray

Gunwerks has a paid relationship with hornady
Just like how they no longer use nightforce scopes
$$$ money talks

Ask Aaron what they have killed more with
The 140 gr berger or the eldm’s

Anyways
Enough derailing by me

Bullet jacket core separation at low speed = yes
Animal dead and recovered = yes
Have I experienced the same with this bullet = yes

Would i recommend them = no

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Now your just getting silly

All im saying is it is a obsolete metric
Do you really need a number to tell you that a 147 gr should penetrate further than a 123gr of the same caliber? Nope
It has zero merit between bullets of different construction
From eldm’s to even eldx’s it’s going to penetrate differently

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Gunwerks has a paid relationship with hornady
Just like how they no longer use nightforce scopes
$$$ money talks

Ask Aaron what they have killed more with
The 140 gr berger or the eldm’s

Anyways
Enough derailing by me

Bullet jacket core separation at low speed = yes
Animal dead and recovered = yes
Have I experienced the same with this bullet = yes

Would i recommend them = no

Yes Berger would be the answer....did they use ELDM bullets..(don't know)...did the use Berger TARGET bullets quick answer yes till Berger changed the color of the box then it was "hunting" bullets..... Marketing is a fine tool.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Yes Berger would be the answer....did they use ELDM bullets..(don't know)...did the use Berger TARGET bullets quick answer yes till Berger changed the color of the box then it was "hunting" bullets..... Marketing is a fine tool.

Oh I agree

I just don’t see a jacket core separation as being a success
The out come is a dead animal though

Maybe the heavier match bullets don’t peel back 4/5 of the distance to the base during impact since they are longer. And it allows the cup to hold more of the lead?
Maybe they shed the jacket of the tip and it allows for a more traditional mushroom shape once it’s gone?
There is an uncountable number of variables

Personally I’d just like to constantly see at least some lead still in the cup

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

All im saying is it is a obsolete metric

not a chance, this number is the main basis for the future imo

the future in ballistics regarding hunting bullets will be in SDRR and ERR

sectional density reduction rate and energy reduction rate

you heard it here first, from me, months ago

i checked to see if hornady was hiring and ready for the next evolution of hunting bullet ballistics but got crickets, their loss

however, i have documented when i came up with this well just in case they try to round about me, i like hornady though, i wouldn't expect them to do that, they are progressive and leading edge so maybe just not ready yet to go to this next level

but this is the direction of next generation hunting bullet ballistics, and i'd love to build the test standard and initial database of all currently available centerfire rifle bullets, it will lead the way in bullet development to have a far deeper look at what really happens after impact and show then new goals to strive for in constructions and designs...it will also show a ton of people what they thought they knew...wasn't really so

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Oh I agree

I just don’t see a jacket core separation as being a success
The out come is a dead animal though

Maybe the heavier match bullets don’t peel back 4/5 of the distance to the base during impact since they are longer. And it allows the cup to hold more of the lead?
Maybe they shed the jacket of the tip and it allows for a more traditional mushroom shape once it’s gone?
There is an uncountable number of variables

Personally I’d just like to constantly see at least some lead still in the cup

see my above post, these numbers can be counted, we just aren't doing it yet

also, if you can entirely explode a bullet over 20" of penetration like maybe best of west was doing with 168 bergers on 700 yard elk then how is that not incredible successful bullet performance? i agree that exploding a bullet in only 6" would be a bad idea for big game but ideal for coyotes...so it's all being done, we just don't have the right data to explain it logically is all

if 100% retention is one's goal and most of the energy and wound channel potential is in the hillside then that's your choice and likely successful performance also, and somewhere in between is where most will, and do, land

[Pioneer2]

Shoot either.Saw Burgers blow up on 2 elk hit in the ribs at 500 + 600 yards from a .300 RUM.

[Flight01]

Seems this thread is an opinion piece.
Here’s my opinion:
Congrats to the OP and son. That’s awesome. No doubt an accurate rifle and good results.
My experiences: hornady sst in 338 absolutely disintegrated at 135 yards on a big bull moose, kept shooting till he was down. 2 jackets recovered with none of the 200 grains of lead to be found. Lungs were soup ,not recognizable. Was it a failure? I wasn’t impressed , so I switched to Interbonds. No bullet recoveries since . What else did I notice?? animals reacted differently. Always running for the hills at Mach speed instead of the typical, drunken sailor stagger.
My last bear was a case where I thought maybe I had missed. Walked around the clover patch for 20 min before finding blood.(bullet exit path) Tracked for 70 yards before finding blood in the bush, he was dead at 100 yards but so weird that the effects were different.
The correct answer lies somewhere in between for me.
I want immediate and significant upset followed by penetration. I might have to hand load some 210gr nosler partitions.

Back to OP. If it’s accurate and kills then your good to go. I wonder what retention is like in a true rib /lung shot? Different camps when it comes to bullet weight retention vs energy dump. I’m in the middle camp.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Flight01

Seems this thread is an opinion piece.
Here’s my opinion:
Congrats to the OP and son. That’s awesome. No doubt an accurate rifle and good results.
My experiences: hornady sst in 338 absolutely disintegrated at 135 yards on a big bull moose, kept shooting till he was down. 2 jackets recovered with none of the 200 grains of lead to be found. Lungs were soup ,not recognizable. Was it a failure? I wasn’t impressed , so I switched to Interbonds. No bullet recoveries since . What else did I notice?? animals reacted differently. Always running for the hills at Mach speed instead of the typical, drunken sailor stagger.
My last bear was a case where I thought maybe I had missed. Walked around the clover patch for 20 min before finding blood.(bullet exit path) Tracked for 70 yards before finding blood in the bush, he was dead at 100 yards but so weird that the effects were different.
The correct answer lies somewhere in between for me.
I want immediate and significant upset followed by penetration. I might have to hand load some 210gr nosler partitions.

Back to OP. If it’s accurate and kills then your good to go. I wonder what retention is like in a true rib /lung shot? Different camps when it comes to bullet weight retention vs energy dump. I’m in the middle camp.

my moose first shot quartering towards at 125 yards did the drunken sailor, entered behind shoulder, near lung tip, all of the liver and kept rocking into the paunch on offside, didn't exit, but looked to be every bit of 1.5-2' penetration, i didn't go looking for the bullet, but the liver is what was incredible...you see in the video that football size cone of damage in the gel and the slow mo showing the disruption around that? that's what the liver of that moose took, it was like it was hit with a 10 gauge, a solid football size amount of that liver was hamburger, that's why he wasn't going anywhere

the very same day i shot a small 3 point (doe size) buck at the same distance and more broadside, typical entrance with slightly larger exit and a 2" cone of damage through the middle...

to see the difference in what the exact same bullet did inside a small critter vs a large critter at the same distance on the same day was very enlightening! you would never have known they were shot with the same gun, same cartridge, same bullet...the damage on all 3 shots of that moose was impressive, the deer...meh

for most shots on most class 2 game, this bullet is going to pass through easily and leave plenty in the hill side, but when it gets tested in a larger critter or with some major bone...it's going to show you what is possible, i have seen several examples of each of these types of hits now and i'm a big fan of what happens when that eld-m gets tested to it's potential and leaves it all in the ring, it's just basic average performance when shooting deer through the side and leaving plenty outside of the ring

so, someone on this forum once said something similar to 'the more you do this, the less answers you will have'

things like 338, or magnum, or thousands of ft/lbs sound impressive, but don't necessarily translate as expected in terminal performance, i believe we can do better to explain this

[gray7mag]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Gunwerks has a paid relationship with hornady
Just like how they no longer use nightforce scopes
$$$ money talks

Ask Aaron what they have killed more with
The 140 gr berger or the eldm’s

Anyways
Enough derailing by me

Bullet jacket core separation at low speed = yes
Animal dead and recovered = yes
Have I experienced the same with this bullet = yes

Would i recommend them = no

Good point about the paid relationship, I was more pointing to the fact that they recommend the ELD Match over the ELD X, which is supposed to be their hunting bullet.

Also the bergers they're using are essentially a match bullet as well.

[Brobee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Bullet jacket core separation at low speed = yes
Animal dead and recovered = yes
Have I experienced the same with this bullet = yes

Would i recommend them = no

+1, that's been my experience with the grendel too.

Best,

Brobee

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

the 123 gr 6.5 does not have crap sd, it has excellent sd for the weight of bullet, the 6.5 line up has always had unusually high sd compared to anything else, so even the lighter 6.5 bullets have fantastic sd compared to all the normal hunting bullets from the usual cartridges

well, since some of us seem to have forgotten the perspective then...

.308, 168gr eld-m, bc .523, sd .253
.264, 123gr eld-m, bc .506, sd .252

45 grain weight difference(26.8% lighter), 0.044" diameter difference(14.3% less diameter)

lots of big game killed with 100 gr partition out of .243 to 300 yards with roughly 2950 fps launch that not too many seem to argue, partition bc .384, sd .242, that's 18.7% less weight than the 123 and 40.5% less than the 168 and 8% less diam than 123 and 21% less than 168, while the .243 partition example is going a whopping 10% faster with 4% less sd than the 123 gr Grendel...while burning 26% more powder

i know both the .243 and Grendel combo's work well and compare well to each other, i'll take the slower heavier fatter Grendel over the faster lighter .243, both will get'r'done, the Grendel just more efficient by doing essentially the same thing with 26% less powder burned and arguably the higher sd of the Grendel 123 gr bullets would be better choice for any 3rd class game opportunities as well as being over 120 grains in weight with larger frontal area that many seem to prefer

the 6.5 Grendel in practical purposes is the 21st century love child of the .243 win & the 30-30, or you could also call it a 6.5 Creedmoor Short, or the baby .308 win

not trying to tout it as an 800 yard elk rig, but anywhere you'd choose a 30-30 or a .243 this will do the job of both nicely, and covers 0-300 yard big game work without breaking a sweat, which is where 98% of it all happens and 95% under 200 yards where it hardly matters at all what you use

Seems to me, youre touting the bullet more than the cartridge. It you feel the 123 gr anything is a 300 yd BG bullet out of a Grendel cartridge, you just have to do a bit more BG shooting to see the error in your thinking. Keep it to 100 yds effective range and you may finds a small following. There are a LOT of better cartridge & bullet combinations for any type of BG at all ranges, although not all are are suitable for those with a profound objection to a bit of recoil. Just what are you trying to prove with all this Grendel stuff anyway.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Seems to me, youre touting the bullet more than the cartridge. It you feel the 123 gr anything is a 300 yd BG bullet out of a Grendel cartridge, you just have to do a bit more BG shooting to see the error in your thinking. Keep it to 100 yds effective range and you may finds a small following. There are a LOT of better cartridge & bullet combinations for any type of BG at all ranges, although not all are are suitable for those with a profound objection to a bit of recoil. Just what are you trying to prove with all this Grendel stuff anyway.

It was the bullet that turned me onto the Grendel as the ideal way to drive it. I always look at things bullet first, what i'd like to drive it next.

Just trying to prove this is the best angry squirrel cartridge and bullet combo on the planet.

Just following up and presenting findings to date...that's all. Run what ya brung, run it well and enjoy. Running it well is the most important thing, nice to have choices.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

All im saying is it is a obsolete metric
Do you really need a number to tell you that a 147 gr should penetrate further than a 123gr of the same caliber? Nope
It has zero merit between bullets of different construction
From eldm’s to even eldx’s it’s going to penetrate differently

He forgot about momentum ..again .

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

It was the bullet that turned me onto the Grendel as the ideal way to drive it. I always look at things bullet first, what i'd like to drive it next.

Just trying to prove this is the best angry squirrel cartridge and bullet combo on the planet.

Just following up and presenting findings to date...that's all. Run what ya brung, run it well and enjoy. Running it well is the most important thing, nice to have choices.

Fair enough. Keep it to shooting angry squirrels and you cant go wrong, or ..
use a 6.5x55 loaded to anemic velocities and get about the same results as a Grendel with just a wee bit more powder and recoil. At least you can always carry an extra Swede round in your pocket, loaded up to its average MV.. just in case things go sideways.

[Stinky Coyote]

momentum, we've been over this, now that's an obsolete argument lol

we could redo the whole thing though? try to figure out why the momentum behind a 1000 grain 700 nitro express launched with 8900 ft/lbs ke and 2000 fps launch couldn't make the elephants brain pan, knock them out but could get back up after a bit, but little 7x57 Bell shot 800 elephants with 173 gr round nose military bullets at 2300 fps...he killed 1011 elephants, a good bunch of the remaining were killed with a 6.5x54 with 159 gr fmj

momentum has zero to do with ballistics discussions and is irrelevant term or figure

is there a horse laying around here somewhere?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Fair enough. Keep it to shooting angry squirrels and you cant go wrong, or ..
use a 6.5x55 loaded to anemic velocities and get about the same results as a Grendel with just a wee bit more powder and recoil. At least you can always carry an extra Swede round in your pocket, loaded up to its average MV.. just in case things go sideways.

lol, yup, could use that 156 gr round nose to deal with a big bad grizzly bear perhaps, being able to run what you brung will have far more to do with the outcome than what you brung

what do first nations like to kill polar bears and all sorts of big critters with that we wouldn't dream of using for such game?

and ya a fellow on here downloaded a 7-08 with 130's to 2400 fps for his kid...pretty Grendel like set up right there, his kid pounded a nice first deer and nothing to it, reloaders have great flexibility, i like those numbers and performance is pleasing so far, so i just buy factory ammo and gear that already does that, like 10% more speed or bullet weight is going to really drop em extra dead, it's interesting how we stigmatize certain things as being so much more than other things in this ballistics discussion when a lot of it is just smaller percentages and the game can't seem to tell the difference like shot for like shot and often the spectacular performance from ones you don't expect and unimpressive from ones you thought would turn the critter into a canoe

[58thecat]

https://www.hornady.com/heat-shield

The Hornady ELD-X® bullet is the most technologically advanced hunting bullet on the market. It is match accurate and delivers dramatic terminal performance at all practical ranges. With the highest BC's in its class, it retains its aerodynamic shape throughout its entire trajectory path with the Heat Shield tip. Offering match grade accuracy, it excels beyond a match bullet's (BTHP or tipped) ability to provide true controlled expansion and lethality at any practical range.

The advent of the Heat Shield® tip has major ramifications in match bullets as well. Hornady includes it in a new line of bullets called ELD® Match – Extremely Low Drag Match.

one punches paper/targets and the other big game animals.....we owe it to the game we pursue to use the right designed bullet....

[Stinky Coyote]

https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...165590&slide=0

such a big difference eh?

https://www.longrangehunting.com/att...-x-jpg.165590/

trying to get the image directly to post for convenience, lets try this



so they are 6.5 bullets there, the 143 eld-x and 147 eld-m are the same dimensionally, the eld-x loses some weight for trade in some copper, which would likely be fantastic when you start running higher velocities like in the PRC...the slower Creedmoor or even slower yet Grendel velocities the Eld-m are fantastic...or as the long range hunting crowds have discovered the Eld-m is for them too as they shoot so far to get those velocities down and get better performance

so...get tougher when you go faster, but moderate velocity cartridges at normal hunting distances...tough to beat the eld-m regardless how it's marketed