Gasoline price jump???

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Here is more facts for you. I also wear underwear. Not a commando kinda guy. Hate chaffing. So I guessed right. You are not knowledgeable on this topic. I am. I also don't share personal info on the internet just because you demand it as your logic makes no sense. If I owned a gas station. You won't believe me. If I am a fry cook at McDonalds you do.

Anyways. More facts for ya.

https://www.quandl.com/collections/f...dollar-futures

Currently gasoline futures are $0.79/litre whole sale. Then factor in taxes. (Alberta excise tax $0.1749, Federal excise tax $0.10, Carbon levy $0.0673, 5% GST on it all. Then since gasoline is a traded north American commodity you factor in transportation costs and retail costs. Note transportation and retail have profit margins...you admitted people don't have to service you for free.

So...

Wholesale Gasoline $0.79, plus all taxes except GST $0.3422 = $1.1322 times 5% GST = $1.19. Calgary high price this minute is $1.24/liter. Now the retailer / gas station makes a profit of $0.05/liter.

Hmmm.

Cheers

Sun

P.S. Notice I added no value for transportation. So companies are taking it on the chin in the chain.

In case someone wants to know why Vancouver is paying higher for gasoline.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/ta...ates-fuels.pdf

Federal Excise tax is $0.10 and provincial tax is $0.3328 for a total tax burden of $0.4328 plus the 5% GST on it all. So $0.79 + $0.4328 = $1.223 X 5% GST = $1.28 plus transportation (gasoline is shipped via existing kinder morgan pipeline. Call it $1.50 retail. So there is ~$0.21 / liter to cover transportation down the pipeline then trucking to retail outlets then profit.

https://www.gasbuddy.com/GasPrices/B...mbia/Vancouver

[Sundancefisher]

US prices also going up.



For reference...US pricing is $2.07 wholesale per gallon. That then give a mark up of $0.66 / gallon for transportation and profits at the transport and retail level. Works out to a 24% bump to wholesale.

Reason for this lower level is lower transport costs in the US. Higher volume sales in the US. Less taxes in the US.

Just a few fun facts.

For comparison.

Canada is $0.79 wholesale with a 56% mark up to sales price. Taxes in Alberta is 50% or wholesale. So a 6% mark up to wholesale is none tax...potential profit and/or transport costs.

[Sundancefisher]

Sorry for all the facts but I felt it would be criminal to let this go without helping out another thread of the same ilk.

[dodger]

It’s spring and all I hear are crickets.

Real numbers scare some people.

Dodger.

[Big Grey Wolf]

I agree US regular gas price also going up, by chart went up 40 cents/us gallon. I would be very happy if our gas went from 60 cents a liter all the way to 70 cents/liter.

[Sundancefisher]

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

And my statement about Supply and Demand is very valid. Canadian consumption has stayed relatively steady over the last several years at 40-42B litres/yr.
.

Looks like gasoline consumption in 2014 was ~45.5 billion litres

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...ce-2015-EN.pdf

2015 was 44.7 billion litres

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...ssociation.pdf


Current use from page 2 of the following link is 47 billion litres.

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...l.pdf?ext=.pdf

Recession took it's toll. Last year 2015-2016 was a growth of 5%. Pretty healthy in a tight supply and demand market as seen on previous post.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Looks like gasoline consumption in 2014 was ~45.5 billion litres

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...ce-2015-EN.pdf

2015 was 44.7 billion litres

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...ssociation.pdf


Current use from page 2 of the following link is 47 billion litres.

http://www.canadianfuels.ca/website/...l.pdf?ext=.pdf

Recession took it's toll. Last year 2015-2016 was a growth of 5%. Pretty healthy in a tight supply and demand market as seen on previous post.

Well I was going to stay out but I guess not.

Here is the site most canadian reports get their info from, myself included:
https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tab...ade37c-eng.htm

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

11850 gas stations in Canada. Yes it is rare when owners do the wrong thing.

I don't contradict anything when I say that nor that oil companies are not colluding.

Competition Bureau reviews the facts and lay charges if founded.

I gave you factual events that occurred in 1 province in just over 4 years.

You come back with how many gas stations in all of Canada as your rebuttal.

Did you actually look at the convictions?

How many times were the oil companies fined in addition to the service station owner? What does that tell you?

You said yourself in the above quote that the Competition Bureau only lays charges if founded?

So if they were convicted and fined, were they making a profit unfairly?

Isn't that what you asked in post #37, why no oil company has ever been convicted of making an unfair profit?

I showed you over 30 cases of it in just 1 province. And another 50 where the service stations were guilty of it.

Unless you don't consider collusion/price-fixing unfair?

Oh that's right, you admitted it was illegal, you never admitted it was unfair.

Well, back to work...

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Well I was going to stay out but I guess not.

Here is the site most canadian reports get their info from, myself included:
https://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tab...ade37c-eng.htm

Thought so. Can't blame you for using that site. It seems that they are missing some volumes likely do to their collection method.

I trust the numbers direct from the refineries recorded production.

[KGB]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

So let me get it straight: if we stop sending gas to BC, we will have higher supply than demand and the price of gas will go down?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

I gave you factual events that occurred in 1 province in just over 4 years.

You come back with how many gas stations in all of Canada as your rebuttal.

Did you actually look at the convictions?

How many times were the oil companies fined in addition to the service station owner? What does that tell you?

You said yourself in the above quote that the Competition Bureau only lays charges if founded?

So if they were convicted and fined, were they making a profit unfairly?

Isn't that what you asked in post #37, why no oil company has ever been convicted of making an unfair profit?

I showed you over 30 cases of it in just 1 province. And another 50 where the service stations were guilty of it.

Unless you don't consider collusion/price-fixing unfair?

Oh that's right, you admitted it was illegal, you never admitted it was unfair.

Well, back to work...

Collusion / price fixing is criminal and very bad. It is rare and when found prosecuted as it should. You will find in every industry there are the rare bad players. It doesn't make the industry bad.

In the end we agree that collusion and price fixing is bad. Some don't understand what that is and I have proven with facts that the gasoline prices in Alberta are very reasonable if not a sweet deal right now given wholesale pricing, taxes, transportation and the fact you agree companies can make a profit to survive.

It is illegal to call the gas station across the street and agree upon a price. That is collusion and price fixing.

It is not illegal to look at the competitors sign and adjust your price as you see fit. That is competition. That is business.

The gasoline retail sector is highly competitive. Companies are constantly watching each other. At the same time margins are very low as proven.

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Here's my beef with petroleum prices since the fall of crude prices-
When reg. petroleum was $1.21 back in 2012 or so, they said it was because oil was over $120/ bbl. That made sense as anyone and everyone knows that oil is needed for gasoline production.
When oil was below $40/bbl and gasoline was near $1.00, Esso, Shell, and PetroCan all said that the price of oil had nothing to do with the price of petroleum.
Sounds like collusion to me? And lies...
Just wait till oil hits $70+/bbl and they say that the reason gasoline is over $1.50/L is because of the high price of oil.

No lies. No collusion. Just facts as stated earlier. Going back to the past to explain the present rarely goes well.

Pricing is fair to today's market. Not sure where you got the Esso, Shell, Petrocan quotes from. Link would be nice to see actual context.

Likely it comes from supply and demand. Regardless the price of the bbl of oil you must realize gasoline is a fraction thereof and variable.



Companies predict future refined product values and competitor strategy and try to out strategy the market by predicting what would make the most money. If jet fuel, diesel, petrochemical feedstocks, etc. command higher profits then you make more of them and less gasoline. If too many companies make not enough gasoline then the price rises for gasoline.

In the end...today's gasoline price is not making much profit at all.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KGB

So let me get it straight: if we stop sending gas to BC, we will have higher supply than demand and the price of gas will go down?

If there is a glut or excess of gasoline supply in Alberta that will drop our price here most likely. At the same time refiners will make less because there is no profit and will try and find something else to make with it. Also they may ship to other jurisdictions (ie find a market).

Yes...it would cause a initial price drop depending how much warning refiners receive.

[gloszz]

Why is anyone surprised? Everything is expensive in Canada and no one even does anything. I mean you go to a lot of countries and when people are unhappy about something, they show it by going on strikes, getting aggressive etc. Here y'all are too happy about everything and too scared to offend someone. price of gas is 1.21 Euros in Austria right now and their hourly minimum is 8.27 euros so about.... $11.58 CAD. My family is paying $2.23 USD a gallon in the Houston area so that is approx $.78 USD. Feeling screwed yet? A gallon of organic milk I paid $3.48, and here a gallon of organic milk at Costco is like $8.78.

Things are getting bad in Canada, that's why so many immigrants who escaped their terrible countries are returning cuz this is getting worse than where they came from.

I am not insinuating anything but the countries of the Former Soviet Union seems to have nice prices. Belarus, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia and Ukraine. Average price there right now for gas is approximately $0.55 CAD. If they can do it, so can we!

[Head Lice]

Originally Posted by kingrat

Saskatchewan hasn't moved yet still around 109

Yeah but ......... look at where you have to live to get that price.

[pinelakeperch]

Originally Posted by gloszz

Why is anyone surprised? Everything is expensive in Canada and no one even does anything. I mean you go to a lot of countries and when people are unhappy about something, they show it by going on strikes, getting aggressive etc. Here y'all are too happy about everything and too scared to offend someone. price of gas is 1.21 Euros in Austria right now and their hourly minimum is 8.27 euros so about.... $11.58 CAD. My family is paying $2.23 USD a gallon in the Houston area so that is approx $.78 USD. Feeling screwed yet? A gallon of organic milk I paid $3.48, and here a gallon of organic milk at Costco is like $8.78.

Things are getting bad in Canada, that's why so many immigrants who escaped their terrible countries are returning cuz this is getting worse than where they came from.

I am not insinuating anything but the countries of the Former Soviet Union seems to have nice prices. Belarus, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia and Ukraine. Average price there right now for gas is approximately $0.55 CAD. If they can do it, so can we!

[pistolero1860]

Originally Posted by whiteout

How would knowing who he works for change what he is posted?

No one is arguing for higher prices, just explaining why the prices are affected by a multitude of factors and that Canada doesn’t operate in a vacuum when it comes to gasoline costs.

Since you ask:

Obviously, anyone working in oil production, or who owns or operates gas stations, or who otherwise has a vested financial stake in having gas prices rise, has a strong reason to want to see gas prices indeed rise. That makes their opinion heavily biased.

That would mean that he was indeed arguing for higher prices because it would increase his own profits.

That also means that the credibilty of that person's arguments would be zero.

[pistolero1860]

Originally Posted by hal53

He has nothing to fear...he has simply explained the whys and where fores of gasoline pricing in the market place. You and others are convinced that he is hiding something and once again it's the big bad oil companies fault that the gas price jumped. I'm surprised that he even tries to calmly explain it time after time to people whose minds are already made up and it seems they are carrying on just to get their post count up

If, as you claim that he has nothing to fear by answering the simple questions that I asked him, then why does he continue to deflect and evade answering those questions?

The fact that he seems so able to manipulate his alleged statistics of gasoline pricing to his advantage certainly does suggest that he has knowledge of oil production, gas station economics, and profits.

It doesn't prove that by manipulating those statistics to his own advantage that anything that he has said is actually true, and so justifies the increases at the pump, however.

For members claiming to be impartial, they seem doggedly determined to bamboozle the rest of us into mutely endorsing and accepting higher gas prices.

If they were actually impartial consumers, why on Earth would they do that, when it picks their own pockets along with the rest of us?

It seems the last resort when someone fears that they are losing ground in a forum debate is to accuse their opponent of "just trying to get their post count up".

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pistolero1860

Since you ask:

Obviously, anyone working in oil production, or who owns or operates gas stations, or who otherwise has a vested financial stake in having gas prices rise, has a strong reason to want to see gas prices indeed rise. That makes their opinion heavily biased.

That would mean that he was indeed arguing for higher prices because it would increase his own profits.

That also means that the credibilty of that person's arguments would be zero.

So deal with facts

Current Wholesale Gasoline sits at $0.80/liter, plus all taxes except GST $0.3422 = $1.1422 times 5% GST = $1.20/litre Calgary high price this minute is $1.25/liter. Transportation costs something to get to the station. Excluding transport the retailer / gas station makes a profit of $0.05/liter.

Is this criminal? Is this fair? Is there anything to complain about insofar as companies making too much profit?

That is what this whole thread is about.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by pistolero1860

If, as you claim that he has nothing to fear by answering the simple questions that I asked him, then why does he continue to deflect and evade answering those questions?

The fact that he seems so able to manipulate his alleged statistics of gasoline pricing to his advantage certainly does suggest that he has knowledge of oil production, gas station economics, and profits.

It doesn't prove that by manipulating those statistics to his own advantage that anything that he has said is actually true, and so justifies the increases at the pump, however.

For members claiming to be impartial, they seem doggedly determined to bamboozle the rest of us into mutely endorsing and accepting higher gas prices.

If they were actually impartial consumers, why on Earth would they do that, when it picks their own pockets along with the rest of us?

It seems the last resort when someone fears that they are losing ground in a forum debate is to accuse their opponent of "just trying to get their post count up".

Clearly for someone who knows nothing and refuses to look at simple math.

Website...clearly states current wholesale gasoline pricing.

Website...clearly states current Alberta tax.

Add two together.

Website...clearly states local gasoline prices.

Subtract.

End up with 5 cents profit per liter assuming no transport cost...a portion of that will be transport costs.

So you worry I am a math genius with deep ties in gasoline economics and trying to trick you.

Well...you got me. I am a genius. So give up already.

Sun

P.S.

Send me the $20 requested to stop the evil monkey from hexing you.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by Slicktricker

No I just don't whine and complain and need a box of tampons when something goes up in price or I don't get my way like you guys.

When my wage starts going up the same as everything else, I'll stop complaining. But as long as goons like you, and there's an awful lot just like you, keep swallowing the humongous loads of **** the big companies are feeding us, all in the name of capitalism, my complaints will continue to fall on deaf ears.

[big_plinker]

If everything goes up at the same time, it's called inflation.

If the only thing going up is the price of everything, and the money you get to take home after the government robs you to keep their bloated staff of deflectors employed, while doing nothing for infrastructure in this country, continues to remain the same, that's called the erosion of the middle class.

You might be clueless to what's going on here, but your kids won't be when their calling for your ignorant heads in 30 years because they're making minimum wage and living hand to mouth.

So.God.Damn.Short.Sighted.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

When my wage starts going up the same as everything else, I'll stop complaining. But as long as goons like you, and there's an awful lot just like you, keep swallowing the humongous loads of **** the big companies are feeding us, all in the name of capitalism, my complaints will continue to fall on deaf ears.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-livin...=United+States

Not sure of the accuracy of this website however points to Canada being better off than the US.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism.

Big companies are not to be blamed...however I caveat that after reading about how Amazon is killing the retail sectors in many respects.

Question is can a company adapt and change and make money or is there a new paradigm shift in retail that is here to stay. If so is Amazon becoming a monopoly? Monopolies are bad...big companies are not bad because they are big.

Then one needs to look at education and job selection. Also what makes one happy. Is it family or stuff.

I hate the phrase money can't buy happiness because lack of money can cause problems.

I don't blame someone with more money for having more money. If I want it that badly I would work my ass off for it. However some people work too much and don't enjoy what they have.

Cheers

Sun

[big_plinker]

Also, can someone explain to me with all their facts and knowledge, why we're paying the same price for gasoline now, with oil at around $70/barrel, as what we were paying when oil was at $140/barrel?

http://www.macrotrends.net/2516/wti-...ar-daily-chart

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

If everything goes up at the same time, it's called inflation.

If the only thing going up is the price of everything, and the money you get to take home after the government robs you to keep their bloated staff of deflectors employed, while doing nothing for infrastructure in this country, continues to remain the same, that's called the erosion of the middle class.

You might be clueless to what's going on here, but your kids won't be when their calling for your ignorant heads in 30 years because they're making minimum wage and living hand to mouth.

So.God.Damn.Short.Sighted.

Actually the inflation index is a calculation spread out amongst many common consumer goods. Some go up...some go down. If more goes up than down you have inflation.

If more go down that up you have deflation.

Inflation is a sign of a strong economy. Strong consumer growth driving demand so long as it is not directly linked to poor Canadian dollar performance. I have a 100 billion dollar Zimbabwe note that at the time could buy a loaf of bread. Now that was a yikes.

Inflation can also be different within a country. Alberta has always had higher prices.

A country need stable inflation.



as for wages here is a link.

http://www.macleans.ca/economy/busin...the-recession/

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Also, can someone explain to me with all their facts and knowledge, why we're paying the same price for gasoline now, with oil at around $70/barrel, as what we were paying when oil was at $140/barrel?

http://www.macrotrends.net/2516/wti-...ar-daily-chart

Gasoline is a commodity.

That commodity today costs $0.80/litre wholesale, plus taxes comes to $1.20. Then a small margin for profit at current prices.

Taxes are much higher than in the past. The price of the commodity costs more.

[big_plinker]

Here's a chart or two for you:





unless and have unadulterated access to the source of information, don't trust any information you get, on the internet or in the paper. Fake news existed long before the ol' orange faced wonder down south made it a buzz word. Nothing here is going to convince me that my dollar is going as far as it did over the past 40 years of my life. If you feel differently, I'm thinking you're belonging to an ever thinning minority, and God bless you.
But when 50% of 20-something are waiting on something catastrophic to happen to the world as their 'long term plans' (can't find the study now, but it was mind numbingly pessimistic), there's something wrong with our present, and our future.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Clearly for someone who knows nothing and refuses to look at simple math.

Website...clearly states current wholesale gasoline pricing.

Website...clearly states current Alberta tax.

Add two together.

Website...clearly states local gasoline prices.

Subtract.

End up with 5 cents profit per liter assuming no transport cost...a portion of that will be transport costs.

So you worry I am a math genius with deep ties in gasoline economics and trying to trick you.

Well...you got me. I am a genius. So give up already.

Sun

P.S.

Send me the $20 requested to stop the evil monkey from hexing you.

Just a quick interjection as you 2 have a separate (and very different??) discussion going-
You have mentioned a couple of times how transport isn't necessarily covered by sales, but that isn't accurate.
Transportation of fuel is covered under what is usually known as "Marketing fees".
Some companies break it out and some lump it with refining, but it is always accounted for and accounts for transport from wellhead to end-use dispenser.

Sorry for the interruption, you guys can carry on now...

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Just a quick interjection as you 2 have a separate (and very different??) discussion going-
You have mentioned a couple of times how transport isn't necessarily covered by sales, but that isn't accurate.
Transportation of fuel is covered under what is usually known as "Marketing fees".
Some companies break it out and some lump it with refining, but it is always accounted for and accounts for transport from wellhead to end-use dispenser.

Sorry for the interruption, you guys can carry on now...

You missed my point. Sorry. Maybe you got confused. Thread was about is there price gouging at the pump. Transportation is not free. They company pays.


I showed wholesale price plus taxes came to $1.20/litre.

At today’s price in Calgary that leaves 5 cents for transportation and profit.

Clearly not gouging.
If there is collusion. Lol. It is colluding to give gas away for no profit.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Here's a chart or two for you:





unless and have unadulterated access to the source of information, don't trust any information you get, on the internet or in the paper. Fake news existed long before the ol' orange faced wonder down south made it a buzz word. Nothing here is going to convince me that my dollar is going as far as it did over the past 40 years of my life. If you feel differently, I'm thinking you're belonging to an ever thinning minority, and God bless you.
But when 50% of 20-something are waiting on something catastrophic to happen to the world as their 'long term plans' (can't find the study now, but it was mind numbingly pessimistic), there's something wrong with our present, and our future.

Depends upon what you are buying. $600 when I was a kid bought me a cheap 20 inch electrahome TV. Cathode Ray.

Now I can get a 50 inch LED Sharp.

My spending power is stil ok.

I hate how things aren’t made to last anymore.