Another school shooting in the States

[KGB]

Originally Posted by bat119

The antigun crowd will try an angle to blame the gun in this case the Father is getting the blame game. At 16 I had a 22, 410, 12ga. and a 303 hanging on the wall in my bedroom nobody got hurt.

Were you wearing a trench coat year around also?
I’m not anti gun, I’m very much pro gun and I’m very much pro safe secured storing of the firearms.

[KGB]

Originally Posted by vcmm

Elk my friend.... Instead of getting a time out or worse getting banned, It is time to admit it is always the tool used. Not the tool using it!!
Being a political sheep is in vogue............
There are people on here with an agenda.

I have no agenda and I do not blame the tool like you mentioned. I do blame the nut kid and I do blame a person who owned guns for improper securing his weapons. It’s like blaming a 5 year old for playing with matches and starting a fire.

[bat119]

Originally Posted by KGB

Were you wearing a trench coat year around also?
I’m not anti gun, I’m very much pro gun and I’m very much pro safe secured storing of the firearms.

I'm from a different era kids knew about firearms not like the kids today either afraid to touch one or too stupid not to know it can be dangerous it was a different time.
I have two safes and keep as many firearms in pieces as I can when I leave the house for an extended period all bolts, slides, cylinders and magazine nuts off my pump guns are stored at a friends house.
The story is about Texas, safe storage is a 38 in the nightstand for self defense.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by KGB

I have no agenda and I do not blame the tool like you mentioned. I do blame the nut kid and I do blame a person who owned guns for improper securing his weapons. It’s like blaming a 5 year old for playing with matches and starting a fire.

He is 17, maybe a few months from 18. No indicators. We are not talking about a 5 year old.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

He is 17, maybe a few months from 18. No indicators. We are not talking about a 5 year old.

Yup, the kid knew exactly what he was doing, probably went through being taught all the rules by his dad and most likely shot those guns many times over a number of years. Your not going to stop a determined 17 year old who lives in the same house as the guns have been stored in from getting at those guns, safe storage or not. We need to be careful what we wish for cause If this keeps going laws will be implemented and people will not be allowed to keep their guns in their homes at all simply because of the possibility of children, determined teenagers, young adults, crazy old adults, thieves, etc from getting their hands on them at some point if they want to. We forget the politicians and anti gun people have already lobbied that all privately owned firearms be stored in some sort of officially sanctioned and heavily monitored community storage vault. To access them you would have to provide 3 pieces of ID, answer where and why you want to use them, and what time they would be returned should you actually want to use them. How far do we we want to push this safe storage thing? I don't think we want to go down this road.

[doorout]

Wondering if months can pass with hearing about school shootings.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I get tired of everybody blaming the gun or how it was stored. As time goes by we have seen laws constantly get more restrictive and at the same time the amount and frequency of these shootings seems to go up correspondingly. When guns were available and stored openly, when there was no such thing as storage laws, registrations, background checks, mandatory training, licensing, etc, these type of shooting were almost unheard of. What needs to be addressed and dealt with and seems to be ignored by society and gov'ts is why these kids are doing this. There is some monumental failing of how society is raising kids that leads some of them to default to killing each other instead of dealing with their issues. Continually squeezing gun owners with more restrictions has not and will not solve this. It only distracts from and allows society to continue to ignore and not deal with the root problem that is causing this..

Excellent post !

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by fluxcore

You jumped to “sexual abuse” how did u come up with that ? Just curious

Kids use several "defense" mechanisms when they are being abused/bulled...over eating to make themselves un attractive...not bathing...acting out in inappropriate ways...etc.

Was the kid abused?? I have no idea... but chances are good due to his behavior.

[vcmm]

Originally Posted by KGB

I have no agenda and I do not blame the tool like you mentioned. I do blame the nut kid and I do blame a person who owned guns for improper securing his weapons. It’s like blaming a 5 year old for playing with matches and starting a fire.

At this point we no nothing about storage until charges are laid.
P.S. I was not saying you personally had an agenda.
Deezel summed a lot up

[Badgerbadger]

When hear of these things, I always wonder "where were the parents?"

The kid didn't understand that "no means no" when coming from anyone, including the object of his "affections". Obviously didn't understand the correct responses to challenges in life. Displayed other antisocial behaviours.

Why didn't the parents head this off at the pass, a long time ago? Why didn't they get him in treatment of some sort? Given he was so mal-adjusted, why did they have firearms in the house?

This kid is a minor, so I have no problem placing all the blame on the parents. They failed in their duty to their son, and their duty to society, and kids died because of it.

I assume that there are huge numbers of these kids whom parents actually do head off at the pass, before tragedies occur.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Badgerbadger

This kid is a minor, so I have no problem placing all the blame on the parents. They failed in their duty to their son, and their duty to society, and kids died because of it.

True the kid is a minor in legal terms, but would you absolve him of blame also if instead of shooting he had driven his car through a crowd of students killing kids because he is a minor? Not holding 'minors' responsible for their actions is a big part of the problem. We don't know the situation, what if the parents did everything right raising the kid and he still did it. I know a few kids that were 'raised right' and despite everything they did, that turned out to be real problems to society.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Badgerbadger

When hear of these things, I always wonder "where were the parents?"

The kid didn't understand that "no means no" when coming from anyone, including the object of his "affections". Obviously didn't understand the correct responses to challenges in life. Displayed other antisocial behaviours.

Why didn't the parents head this off at the pass, a long time ago? Why didn't they get him in treatment of some sort? Given he was so mal-adjusted, why did they have firearms in the house?

This kid is a minor, so I have no problem placing all the blame on the parents. They failed in their duty to their son, and their duty to society, and kids died because of it.

I assume that there are huge numbers of these kids whom parents actually do head off at the pass, before tragedies occur.

There is no shortage of deadbeat parents who have no idea what their kids are doing. There also is no shortage of parents who think their little johnny could do no wrong.

I think family values have changed for many households.

[vcmm]

This discussion is no different than most shootings. People blame everything they can. Except the problem. Mental health is one of the the biggest problems we face as a society. Something went seriously wrong over the last 20-30 years. I believe movie violence,games and social engineering are the biggest problems.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by vcmm

This discussion is no different than most shootings. People blame everything they can. Except the problem. Mental health is one of the the biggest problems we face as a society. Something went seriously wrong over the last 20-30 years. I believe movie violence,games and social engineering are the biggest problems.

I'm 45 and I don't remember mental health being a issue growing up. I assume it was dealt with by the tip of dad's boot or mom's wooden spoon. Ritalin and other medications seem to be the fix now.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by vcmm

This discussion is no different than most shootings. People blame everything they can. Except the problem. Mental health is one of the the biggest problems we face as a society. Something went seriously wrong over the last 20-30 years. I believe movie violence,games and social engineering are the biggest problems.

Agreed^^^

I will also go so far as to say the social engineering that removed prayer and the teaching of Judeo-Chrsitian ethics from schools, and the move to a completely secular society, has contributed as well as the points above. At one point life was considered sacred as it was given by God. Now it is punishable for a teacher to mention God in school. You remember that commandment, "Thou shall not kill?" Take away God, then you take away the belief in a heaven and a hell. If there is no fear of an afterlife where deeds will be repaid, then what is the worst that can happen? Nothing really. You are the master of your own fate, so if your life sucks, you hate people, then what is to stop you from mowing them down? Nothing.

This is not everything when it comes to these tragic massacres, but it sure as heck is a part of it.

[CaberTosser]

I’ll certainly agree with you on the mental health aspect, there could potentially be some correlation to violent games but the person would have to be susceptible to that in the first place so then one is back at mental health again. A normal person can let go of losing or taunting in an online game rather than festering and dwelling in their frustration and hatred. I could see how excessive gaming could have these people at a loss for real life social interaction, especially when they play practically in perpetuity. Of course such social misfits are also going to be experiencing bullying online as well, their being different is going to be noticed online just as it would be in person.

I do think it’s important to give the sociopath offenders as little press and fame as possible. One would imagine that investigators would be building profiles of the online activities of these killers and looking for danger signs. From there things would get a bit Orwellian perhaps, but what else can be done?

I also wonder & worry about the casual way in which people will medicate their kids and how those medications affect their developing minds.

As for the mention of religion, I don’t think a lack of that is much of a factor, it’s the lack of a conscience that is the biggest issue. Way more people have been killed in the names of various religions throughout history than have died in mass shootings or other acts of mass homicide so that one does not really seem to provide explanation to me. I’m agnostic but I have a pretty strong moral compass and I’m certain there are religious people who are not particularly nice to their fellow man so I can’t see that as being a reason. Kids can be taught morality without having to invoke various ancient fairy tales to do so. Some people are simply devoid of empathy more due to how their brain is wired rather than what they’ve been taught.

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

True the kid is a minor in legal terms, but would you absolve him of blame also if instead of shooting he had driven his car through a crowd of students killing kids because he is a minor? Not holding 'minors' responsible for their actions is a big part of the problem. We don't know the situation, what if the parents did everything right raising the kid and he still did it. I know a few kids that were 'raised right' and despite everything they did, that turned out to be real problems to society.

Didn't mean to say I was absolving him of blame. I was trying to indicate the parents need to shoulder a significant and possibly equal, share of the blame as well.

[Badgerbadger]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

There is no shortage of deadbeat parents who have no idea what their kids are doing. There also is no shortage of parents who think their little johnny could do no wrong.

I think family values have changed for many households.

Having parents share some responsibility for the misbehaviour of their minor children may snap some deadbeats into a bit less of a self-absorbed coma.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I’ll certainly agree with you on the mental health aspect, there could potentially be some correlation to violent games but the person would have to be susceptible to that in the first place so then one is back at mental health again. A normal person can let go of losing or taunting in an online game rather than festering and dwelling in their frustration and hatred. I could see how excessive gaming could have these people at a loss for real life social interaction, especially when they play practically in perpetuity. Of course such social misfits are also going to be experiencing bullying online as well, their being different is going to be noticed online just as it would be in person.

I do think it’s important to give the sociopath offenders as little press and fame as possible. One would imagine that investigators would be building profiles of the online activities of these killers and looking for danger signs. From there things would get a bit Orwellian perhaps, but what else can be done?

I also wonder & worry about the casual way in which people will medicate their kids and how those medications affect their developing minds.

As for the mention of religion, I don’t think a lack of that is much of a factor, it’s the lack of a conscience that is the biggest issue. Way more people have been killed in the names of various religions throughout history than have died in mass shootings or other acts of mass homicide so that one does not really seem to provide explanation to me. I’m agnostic but I have a pretty strong moral compass and I’m certain there are religious people who are not particularly nice to their fellow man so I can’t see that as being a reason. Kids can be taught morality without having to invoke various ancient fairy tales to do so. Some people are simply devoid of empathy more due to how their brain is wired rather than what they’ve been taught.

Yes, history has recorded many atrocities in the name of religion. What I think sns2 was eluding to is, that if a youth was not receiving any moral encourage or direction at home, at least through christian teachings at school they were getting some positives influences. I grew up going to church every Sunday and attending a Catholic school. Never once was I ever encourage by a priest or teacher to commit an immoral act or harm another human being.

[1899b]

[KGB]

^^ and that sums it up perfectly.

[Peter Abelard]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

Yes I am sure mental issues, sexual abuse?, or a hundred other factors will never be discussed....but that DANG firearm...will be the problem...no doubt !

The two need to be discussed together.

1) The reason why he was disturbed.

2) Was it's so easy for crazy to turn into a body count.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

As for the mention of religion, I don’t think a lack of that is much of a factor, it’s the lack of a conscience that is the biggest issue. Way more people have been killed in the names of various religions throughout history than have died in mass shootings or other acts of mass homicide so that one does not really seem to provide explanation to me. I’m agnostic but I have a pretty strong moral compass and I’m certain there are religious people who are not particularly nice to their fellow man so I can’t see that as being a reason. Kids can be taught morality without having to invoke various ancient fairy tales to do so. Some people are simply devoid of empathy more due to how their brain is wired rather than what they’ve been taught.

Not intending to preach a sermon, rather I was making sociological observations on how things have changed in our lifetimes, and its possible affect on people. My comments were not directed toward anyone in particular, rather the overarching mindset/conscience/moral compass of what was American society 30-40 years ago. Whether I'm a believer or you are an agnostic has nothing to do with things. Morality, even for agnostics with strong moral compasses, was shaped by Judeo-Christian teachings, because that is what western society's laws our were based upon. As well, the US was largely made up of people who would have stated they believed in God, and that at the end of their life they would be judged according to their deeds. To argue against that is folly. And by extension, a healthy fear of hell would likely have given innumerable people pause from giving in to one's basest emotions.

Anyhow, it is only one of many pieces to a tragic puzzle.

Much has obviously changed. Not for the better.

[ReconWilly]

Originally Posted by sns2

Not intending to preach a sermon, rather I was making sociological observations on how things have changed in our lifetimes, and its possible affect on people. My comments were not directed toward anyone in particular, rather the overarching mindset/conscience/moral compass of what was American society 30-40 years ago. Whether I'm a believer or you are an agnostic has nothing to do with things. Morality, even for agnostics with strong moral compasses, was shaped by Judeo-Christian teachings, because that is what western society's laws our were based upon. As well, the US was largely made up of people who would have stated they believed in God, and that at the end of their life they would be judged according to their deeds. To argue against that is folly. And by extension, a healthy fear of hell would likely have given innumerable people pause from giving in to one's basest emotions.

Anyhow, it is only one of many pieces to a tragic puzzle.

Much has obviously changed. Not for the better.

I agree with this observation, Stalin himself claimed that the communists would take over America by eroding their spirituality, their morality and their patriotism,evidence for these attacks is EVERYWHERE, and the results are becoming clearer and clearer by the day.

[32-40win]

Hard to say what is truth or fiction on a published part of the story I saw today, but, apparently he was rejected by one of the girls he shot, he kept asking her out, she kept saying no.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by sns2

Not intending to preach a sermon, rather I was making sociological observations on how things have changed in our lifetimes, and its possible affect on people. My comments were not directed toward anyone in particular, rather the overarching mindset/conscience/moral compass of what was American society 30-40 years ago. Whether I'm a believer or you are an agnostic has nothing to do with things. Morality, even for agnostics with strong moral compasses, was shaped by Judeo-Christian teachings, because that is what western society's laws our were based upon. As well, the US was largely made up of people who would have stated they believed in God, and that at the end of their life they would be judged according to their deeds. To argue against that is folly. And by extension, a healthy fear of hell would likely have given innumerable people pause from giving in to one's basest emotions.

Anyhow, it is only one of many pieces to a tragic puzzle.

Much has obviously changed. Not for the better.

I disagree with the general premise that a lack of morality (religious or otherwise) is the cause of increased mass shootings. Over the past 30 or 40 years, most western countries have seen a steady decrease in crime generally - with the exception of mass murder.

If declining morality is truly at the heart of it I think we'd expect to see crime rates rise generally, but we've seen the opposite.

[chickensashimi]

Originally Posted by sns2

Not intending to preach a sermon, rather I was making sociological observations on how things have changed in our lifetimes, and its possible affect on people. My comments were not directed toward anyone in particular, rather the overarching mindset/conscience/moral compass of what was American society 30-40 years ago. Whether I'm a believer or you are an agnostic has nothing to do with things. Morality, even for agnostics with strong moral compasses, was shaped by Judeo-Christian teachings, because that is what western society's laws our were based upon. As well, the US was largely made up of people who would have stated they believed in God, and that at the end of their life they would be judged according to their deeds. To argue against that is folly. And by extension, a healthy fear of hell would likely have given innumerable people pause from giving in to one's basest emotions.

Anyhow, it is only one of many pieces to a tragic puzzle.

Much has obviously changed. Not for the better.

I know parents teachers who called the rc's on the parents for spanking kids, and the kid, he more than deserved it!
Kids need learnins, weather it's the open palm to the rear or principals in our daily affairs, we are the enabler society, now these kids push the limits further and further, with little to no consequence.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by SlimChance

I disagree with the general premise that a lack of morality (religious or otherwise) is the cause of increased mass shootings. Over the past 30 or 40 years, most western countries have seen a steady decrease in crime generally - with the exception of mass murder.

If declining morality is truly at the heart of it I think we'd expect to see crime rates rise generally, but we've seen the opposite.

I wonder if these declining crime rates are due to declining conviction rates and cops tired of wasting their time to see criminals get off? Just a thought.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by chickensashimi

I know parents teachers who called the rc's on the parents for spanking kids, and the kid, he more than deserved it!
Kids need learnins, weather it's the open palm to the rear or principals in our daily affairs, we are the enabler society, now these kids push the limits further and further, with little to no consequence.

Pretty much true. My wife works at a school and the lack of respect the kids show to their teachers is shocking.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by 32-40win

Hard to say what is truth or fiction on a published part of the story I saw today, but, apparently he was rejected by one of the girls he shot, he kept asking her out, she kept saying no.

I also heard this ^^^