Is it time to lobby for the NDP government to take over the licensing of outfitters?

[avb3]

First of all reference this story:
https://m.facebook.com/notes/fish-an...orid=805840723

The ministers tag was used illegally in the poaching of a big horn sheep in the Cadomin coal mine area.

The person who shot the sheep was a big horn guide from the area, so obviously knew where the boundaries were.

The issue is that APOS has virtually never withheld the license of an outfitter or a guide unless a client was wronged. One can find no instance of where an Outfitters license was pulled and only occasionally a guide license had been suspended.

Perhaps if the licensing Outfitters and guide was back in government hands, some of those that consistently break our wildlife laws would be out of business.

It's time for APOS to either act consistently, or for us as outdoorsman to strongly lobby this government to cancel the Delegated Administration Organization authority that APOS has.

It is time for those Outfitters & guides that break laws to lose the ability to make a living from Alberta's Wildlife.

[Redfrog]

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

When a guy poaches a sheep and gets a $2500 fine it sends a message that the courts think the sheep is worth $2500 and the offence is really not that serious because a guy who does not follow the rules is now suspended for a year, from recreational hunting.

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room with these destructions, " You need to go to your room and think about what you've done here today." Well DUH!!! what else would I do? Wasn't much of a price to pay was it?

Maybe the fine for the sheep should have been 25,000 and a year in jail, and it should be the same for everyone.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

Bus driver, taxi driver etc. convicted fo DUI
Stock trader convicted of insider trading

But agree fines need to be a lot higher to provide more of a deterent

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

When a guy poaches a sheep and gets a $2500 fine it sends a message that the courts think the sheep is worth $2500 and the offence is really not that serious because a guy who does not follow the rules is now suspended for a year, from recreational hunting.

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room with these destructions, " You need to go to your room and think about what you've done here today." Well DUH!!! what else would I do? Wasn't much of a price to pay was it?

Maybe the fine for the sheep should have been 25,000 and a year in jail, and it should be the same for everyone.

The problem is, that APOS nevet, or apparently never, sanctions their members.

Often they use the term double jeopardy as an excuse.

However other professions such as lawyers, accountants, doctors, dentists, excetra certainly can lose their license to practice if they are found negligent for numerous laws.

If a professional outfitter or professional guide breaks wildlife laws, they certainly should be subject to sanction above and beyond that a fine. If the law they broke is considered to be serious enough, or if they've done it a number times (we all can name some of the outfitters which have) then absolutely they should lose their license and ability to make a livelihood off Alberta's wildlife.

[NorthShore]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

I think most jobs that require a professional designation (engineer, biologist, doctor etc) can be lost if you commit a crime related to the work you are doing.

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by avb3

The problem is, that APOS nevet, or apparently never, sanctions their members.

Often they use the term double jeopardy as an excuse.

However other professions such as lawyers, accountants, doctors, dentists, excetra certainly can lose their license to practice if they are found negligent for numerous laws.

If a professional outfitter or professional guide breaks wildlife laws, they certainly should be subject to sanction above and beyond that a fine. If the law they broke is considered to be serious enough, or if they've done it a number times (we all can name some of the outfitters which have) then absolutely they should lose their license and ability to make a livelihood off Alberta's wildlife.

Are you sitting down?

You make some good points.

If a doctor or lawyer is guilty of criminal malpractice, they lose their license.Not sure there's much daylight between that and a poaching guide/outfitter.

You are also correct that APOS has a less than stellar record for aggressively enforcing their standards of conduct. We don't have the staff to increase the odds of getting caught , but we do have the ability to make it very costly qqwhne you are caught.

Having said that I still maintain that the penalties need to be substantially more than they are now so it is too expensive to break the law.

A $500 fine for 6 walleye in a 0 retention lake is no deterrent when the perp has been doing it for a couple years without getting caught.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Are you sitting down?

You make some good points.

If a doctor or lawyer is guilty of criminal malpractice, they lose their license.Not sure there's much daylight between that and a poaching guide/outfitter.

You are also correct that APOS has a less than stellar record for aggressively enforcing their standards of conduct. We don't have the staff to increase the odds of getting caught , but we do have the ability to make it very costly qqwhne you are caught.

Having said that I still maintain that the penalties need to be substantially more than they are now so it is too expensive to break the law.

A $500 fine for 6 walleye in a 0 retention lake is no deterrent when the perp has been doing it for a couple years without getting caught.

Hell, no I was not sitting down, I fell down had to pick myself up from the floor!

We appear to agree on this issue.

I honestly think APOS needs to address the issue loudly, clearly, and frequently, so there is no misunderstanding or weasel words used. That has been going on for way too long.

[Dacotensis]

There is no collared lion in this story, therefore not worthy...


Yes. It is time.

[wwbirds]

Couldnt find their own ***** if they were allowed to use both hands.
Apos is similar organization!

[45/70/500]

[QUOTE=Redfrog;2919047]

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room

can we here the rest of this story it wont cause the argueing that poaching stories do lol

[hal53]

The problem being with any Gov't. involvement it would turn into a worse goat roping than they have now. I could see some pencil necked geek with a pocket protector showing up at an outfitters camp and shutting down the hunt because the guides first aid ticket expired two days before. Maybe if somebody in the Gov't. would get some balls and tell APOS to clean up their act or somebody else will take over. The tail has been wagging the dog too long as far as the outfitting industry goes..

[Kurt505]

To start with, I say put an end to the ministers tag and any other high dollar sale of any tag. It's all a political game about dollars for douches. Make it about wildlife conservation first. Unfortunately I have a hard time believing any group will ever do this, it's dollars first, then wildlife second and I can't see it ever changing.

[Kurt505]

[QUOTE=45/70/500;2919134]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room

can we here the rest of this story it wont cause the argueing that poaching stories do lol

I believe he is referring to the palm sisters, not sure you want to hear the rest of the story, I've heard enough of it

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

A crime related to their business? Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers, Pharmacists... The list goes on and on. Basically anyone with a credible professional association tasked with licensing.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

To start with, I say put an end to the ministers tag and any other high dollar sale of any tag. It's all a political game about dollars for douches. Make it about wildlife conservation first. Unfortunately I have a hard time believing any group will ever do this, it's dollars first, then wildlife second and I can't see it ever changing.

The Minister’s tag DOES go to conservation. It was lobbied for on that basis.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by avb3

The Minister’s tag DOES go to conservation. It was lobbied for on that basis.

That' not why I want it gone. I want it gone so they open up more hunting opportunities for resident hunters to come up with the money. If they didn't get their pot of gold from one tag they'd be looking at other ways of coming up with it.

[Okotokian]

New idea to really generate funds for conservation from the Minister's Tag:

Make it valid to kill one animal, any animal, anytime, anywhere. Valid for one year.

Now THAT would generate funds!

[sns2]

Clearly, there is no longer any appetite for this organization as it currently exists. I would be in favour of tight legislation and gov't licensing, plus zero tolerance for poaching offences.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

New idea to really generate funds for conservation from the Minister's Tag:

Make it valid to kill one animal, any animal, anytime, anywhere. Valid for one year.

Now THAT would generate funds!

Including the national parks

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by avb3

First of all reference this story:
https://m.facebook.com/notes/fish-an...orid=805840723

The ministers tag was used illegally in the poaching of a big horn sheep in the Cadomin coal mine area.

The person who shot the sheep was a big horn guide from the area, so obviously knew where the boundaries were.

The issue is that APOS has virtually never withheld the license of an outfitter or a guide unless a client was wronged. One can find no instance of where an Outfitters license was pulled and only occasionally a guide license had been suspended.

Perhaps if the licensing Outfitters and guide was back in government hands, some of those that consistently break our wildlife laws would be out of business.

It's time for APOS to either act consistently, or for us as outdoorsman to strongly lobby this government to cancel the Delegated Administration Organization authority that APOS has.

It is time for those Outfitters & guides that break laws to lose the ability to make a living from Alberta's Wildlife.

YES, it is well past time that APOS and the Alberta Gov. to take the DAO to new levels, or end it.

There needs to be a regulation and penalty defined in the Wildlife Act or Wildlife Regulations for there to be any consistent course of punishment for Outfitters and Guides that break Wildlife and Property laws.

With the new Outfitter Agreement coming up for public consultation sometime soon (projected to be out this fall), there is an opening to get these conditions implemented in both Policy and Law.


Attached is what I am told is the current MOU between APOS and the ABGov.

[Redfrog]

[QUOTE=45/70/500;2919134]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room

can we here the rest of this story it wont cause the argueing that poaching stories do lol

WOW! You and that Kurt guy are a pair of oinkers.
I was simply helping the girls with their biology. My mother was upset because we had skipped out of choir practice that afternoon.

APOS Likely needs an assessment as any organization like a teacher's union or association would when questions about their operation are raised.

[DarkAisling]

I'm generally opposed to more government interference in our lives. Instead, I would argue that a takeover of the APOS board needs to be arranged by like minded individuals who are Outfitter-Guide permit holders within the organization.

As crazy as that may sound, I was involved in a board takeover of a not for profit organization fifteen years ago. The whole thing was pretty awesome, and it was really, really easy once the ranks were split within the organization: with the majority wanting the change that we promised and voting us in.

[schmedlap]

Originally Posted by NorthShore

I think most jobs that require a professional designation (engineer, biologist, doctor etc) can be lost if you commit a crime related to the work you are doing.

In the case of lawyers it is pretty much disbarment if convicted of ANY indictable offence, whether related to the professional practice or not. They may get one "mulligan" for a first DUI or similar unrelated relatively "minor" offence with no jail time, but that is about it.

[schmedlap]

[QUOTE=Redfrog;2919289]

Originally Posted by 45/70/500

WOW! You and that Kurt guy are a pair of oinkers.
I was simply helping the girls with their biology. My mother was upset because we had skipped out of choir practice that afternoon.

APOS Likely needs an assessment as any organization like a teacher's union or association would when questions about their operation are raised.

I tried the same excuse on my rather Victorian Mom, when the local Baptist Minister's 2 daughters skipped off on a multi-day camping tourist adventure with me and my buddy, sans permission (how were we to know?), and missed their weekly bible study, not to mention Sunday service. Their Dad was more understanding than my Mom. My Dad was more "understanding" than either - he had to put on the show of approbation, but on the side..? Those girls excelled in human physiology - I'm sure they went on to make their parents very proud (?).

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

When a guy poaches a sheep and gets a $2500 fine it sends a message that the courts think the sheep is worth $2500 and the offence is really not that serious because a guy who does not follow the rules is now suspended for a year, from recreational hunting.

Reminds me of when my mom came home and caught me with the twin sisters. She was pretty unhappy and outraged at my disgusting behaviour. She sent me to my room with these destructions, " You need to go to your room and think about what you've done here today." Well DUH!!! what else would I do? Wasn't much of a price to pay was it?

Maybe the fine for the sheep should have been 25,000 and a year in jail, and it should be the same for everyone.

If a Doctor is guilty of malpractice the authorities come down on them pretty hard. If a worker is injured on the job the immediate supervisor and everyone up the food chain are raked over the coals and they may suffer financially. I think the bigger question is: if a person is repeatedly incompetent in the most key aspects their job either wilfully or otherwise, should they still be in that industry?

[super7mag]

[QUOTE=Kurt505;2919185]

Originally Posted by 45/70/500

I believe he is referring to the palm sisters, not sure you want to hear the rest of the story, I've heard enough of it

Thelma and Louise.

[3blade]

the equivalent would be professional negligence or a criminal code conviction (nurse, cop, etc.) and there are no second chances. your license gets pulled and goodbye career. The same should be applied to APOS. Absolute disgrace.

The role of government is to maintain public resources and services. Fish and wildlife clearly fall under this category. so yes, they need to revamp or disband APOS and place outfitters under a official who is responsible and accountable to the public.

Speaking of, how do you all think this would go over in our current lion-lovin political climate? If it was to catch on that convicted poacher guides/outfitters are allowed to continue without being reprimanded..

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Speaking of, how do you all think this would go over in our current lion-lovin political climate? If it was to catch on that convicted poacher guides/outfitters are allowed to continue without being reprimanded..

...and this is my concern on this issue also. This may not be the time (and government) to be messing with the system.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

What other professions lose their jobs/business if the are convicted of a crime?

Hundreds. Millions of people have lost their jobs over the years for reason far less serious than that. People lose their job simply because someone doesn't like they way they look, their religion, the clothes they wear, whatever. They may not actually get fired but suddenly their position is terminated, there are a hundreds of ways companies/employers get rid of people at no cost to the company other than the minimum severance pay if they fire someone for no reason, or nothing at all if they lay them off. If they don't have a union you are hooped if an employer is out to get rid of someone. Labour relations can be worked around and often helps the employer more than the employee who is 'dismised' for no real reason.

[elkhunter11]

Speaking of, how do you all think this would go over in our current lion-lovin political climate? If it was to catch on that convicted poacher guides/outfitters are allowed to continue without being reprimanded..

Exactly why I believe that this is the perfect time to deal with this. Unless the government feels some pressure from the voters, they aren't going to do anything. If this was to get some media attention, the government would be forced to take action.