Sherwood Park Gun Range

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I am a member of the club that elkhunter11 mentioned he used to belong to. I have been a member since 1975 and frankly in the last 20 years the AFGA really has done nothing for the members of of club , and very few actually knew anything about the AFGA
Since we left the AFGA, our club has done nothing but prosper and is as strong or stronger than it ever was.
Cat

When we left AFGA, we stopped giving them over $60,000 per year, and put that money into the facility instead. SPFGA gives them several times that every year, so that would leave them that much more to put into the facility, instead of giving it to AFGA.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When we left AFGA, we stopped giving them over $60,000 per year, and put that money into the facility instead. SPFGA gives them several times that every year, so that would leave them that much more to put into the facility, instead of giving it to AFGA.

Exactly and getting liability insurance is not nearly as big an issue as the AFHA would have a person believe
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Exactly and getting liability insurance is not nearly as big an issue as the AFHA would have a person believe
Cat

We had no problem finding liability insurance, which we purchased before we left AFGA. Insurance can be purchased through CCFR and CSSA.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

We had no problem finding liability insurance, which we purchased before we left AFGA. Insurance can be purchased through CCFR and CSSA.

You might want to contact some of the current execs to share that Elk, I asked years ago if I could opt out of being an AFGA member and was told no... turns out I wasn’t a member anyway all these years . However I do receive Outdoor Canada and a Mark Work Warehouse discount card every now and then.

I have a feeling this might be a misunderstanding... BUT if not, what a gong show.

LC

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You might want to contact some of the current execs to share that Elk, I asked years ago if I could opt out of being an AFGA member and was told no... turns out I wasn’t a member anyway all these years . However I do receive Outdoor Canada and a Mark Work Warehouse discount card every now and then.

I have a feeling this might be a misunderstanding... BUT if not, what a gong show.

LC

I have already informed members of the executive as a result of them asking for suggestions in the poll. The simple fact is that the ranges are a huge cash cow for AFGA, even though many range members don't even hunt. Membership fees could be significantly lower, if the ranges broke away from AFGA.

[saskbooknut]

AFGA is a member directed organization to act on fish and game issues, is it not?
It is the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association.
If you don't participate, you don't influence.
Do they not represent hunters and fishers as a lobby group?
Maybe shooters do not see the need to lobby for fish and game, or maybe by not participating the organization is not representative?
Just wondering, since similar issues are evident in the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by saskbooknut

AFGA is a member directed organization to act on fish and game issues, is it not?
It is the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association.
If you don't participate, you don't influence.
Do they not represent hunters and fishers as a lobby group?
Maybe shooters do not see the need to lobby for fish and game, or maybe by not participating the organization is not representative?
Just wondering, since similar issues are evident in the Saskatchewan Wildlife Federation.

While it may be the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association, many members only join to access the range. Many do not hunt at all, and have no interest in hunting. And if the club does decide to break away from AFGA, any members that choose to, can still join AFGA on their own.

[Gifted Intuitive]

The Sherwood Park Fish and Game is not a shooting organization, it is a conservation organization. It has goals compatible with the AFGA and not gun organizations. Of the land mass where the range is located, what does Sherwood Park Fish and Game actually own ? The land where the range is located has a conservation easement to the Natures Conservancy, and the easement combined with the obligation to remove contaminants probably has a land value of zero or negative value.
Sherwood Park F & G sought environmental groups as investment partners to buy adjoining lands to limit residential encroachment. A few years back, a developer bought a quarter (160 acres) north and west of the range quarter and planned to develop a subdivision. The County did not oppose this subdivision. This would have closed the range but a conservation organization put up the money and purchased the quarter. Within the last year the Natures Conservancy bought more land east of the range. The quarter south of this recent purchase has been subdivided for multiple housing (Lafeyette Estates). The AFGA has played a key role in these purchases.
So you may wonder what benefit the AFGA offers members, you have to recognize environmental groups have put up major dollars ( my estimate about 1 million) in support of gun owners.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

Ranges need to decide if they are in the business of selling memberships, improving facilities and the shooting sports or being an agent for the insurance companies/F&G associations..

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

The Sherwood Park Fish and Game is not a shooting organization, it is a conservation organization. It has goals compatible with the AFGA and not gun organizations. Of the land mass where the range is located, what does Sherwood Park Fish and Game actually own ? The land where the range is located has a conservation easement to the Natures Conservancy, and the easement combined with the obligation to remove contaminants probably has a land value of zero or negative value.
Sherwood Park F & G sought environmental groups as investment partners to buy adjoining lands to limit residential encroachment. A few years back, a developer bought a quarter (160 acres) north and west of the range quarter and planned to develop a subdivision. The County did not oppose this subdivision. This would have closed the range but a conservation organization put up the money and purchased the quarter. Within the last year the Natures Conservancy bought more land east of the range. The quarter south of this recent purchase has been subdivided for multiple housing (Lafeyette Estates). The AFGA has played a key role in these purchases.
So you may wonder what benefit the AFGA offers members, you have to recognize environmental groups have put up major dollars ( my estimate about 1 million) in support of gun owners.

Has AFGA actually invested any money in the property? Or was it other groups that simply wanted to prevent the property from being developed? While SPFGA does want to maintain a good relationship with the people that put up the money, is it in the best interest of the members to pay AFGA hundreds of thousands per year, that could be spent on the facilities?
When I first joined my previous club about 40 years ago, most members hunted, but that has changed significantly over the years, and many members are now recreational shooters that don't hunt, and that would rather see their membership fees spent to maintain and upgrade the facility. I guess the poll that SPFGA sent out, may help to determine how the members feel about the situation.

[saskbooknut]

So the Nature Conservancy and AFGA put up money to buy land that allowed SPFGA range to survive.
Interesting fact that should have a significant bearing on future relationship.
Shooting sports, without plenty of non- shooting friends, are doomed.
We are a small minority, and if the Liberals have a correct reading of the situation, wears screwed.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by saskbooknut

So the Nature Conservancy and AFGA put up money to buy land that allowed SPFGA range to survive.
Interesting fact that should have a significant bearing on future relationship.
Shooting sports, without plenty of non- shooting friends, are doomed.
We are a small minority, and if the Liberals have a correct reading of the situation, wears screwed.

Until you see the breakdown of who contributed what money, you can't know just how much everyone actually contributed. SPFGA hands over hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to AFGA, so how does that compare to any financial contribution by AFGA to buy any land that benefits SPFGA? Over the years that would total millions of dollars handed over to AFGA, so should SPFGA still feel obligated to keep handing over that money? I agree with SPFGA reaching out to their members to see what they think.

[Gifted Intuitive]

I copied this from the Tofield Mercury Newspaper.

County delays decision on bylaw to get legal opinion on the issue of stray bullets
BY PUBLISHER · DECEMBER 19, 2011

By Patricia Harcourt
Staff Reporter

A public hearing into a land rezoning application heard objections from neighbours fearing that a later subdivision would impact wildlife and the historic nature of the moraine habitat.


The county won’t approve or deny the application until it receives a legal opinion on liability if stray bullets from a nearby gun range, which is only 300 ft. away, enter the proposed subdivision.

Dr. Stephen Carey, the applicant, has already built a subdivision in the area called Carey Ridge Estates. This latest 155 acres of land he wishes to develop into 30 lots is located at NW 21-50-20-W4.

However, the land must be rezoned from agricultural to country residential before the subdivision process can proceed. It is this application that Beaver County Council is considering and the reason for the Dec. 14 public hearing.

Particular information from the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association, which is located adjacent to the property in question, led council to delay any decision after the public hearing.



One pro-development councillor felt the information could stymie this and other applications, due to the potential danger of a firing range being so close to houses being built nearby. Dennis Miciak (Division 4) went to so far as to suggest the gun club might have to be shut down if it hampered the county’s desire to encourage growth that would increase the local population.

Patrick Harris, President of the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association, warned council of the potential for stray bullets to travel far enough as to enter the perimeter of the proposed subdivision, stating putting a subdivision down range of their property “doesn’t make sense.”

More see the Dec. 20/11 issue of the Tofield Mercury

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

I copied this from the Tofield Mercury Newspaper.

County delays decision on bylaw to get legal opinion on the issue of stray bullets
BY PUBLISHER · DECEMBER 19, 2011

By Patricia Harcourt
Staff Reporter

A public hearing into a land rezoning application heard objections from neighbours fearing that a later subdivision would impact wildlife and the historic nature of the moraine habitat.


The county won’t approve or deny the application until it receives a legal opinion on liability if stray bullets from a nearby gun range, which is only 300 ft. away, enter the proposed subdivision.

Dr. Stephen Carey, the applicant, has already built a subdivision in the area called Carey Ridge Estates. This latest 155 acres of land he wishes to develop into 30 lots is located at NW 21-50-20-W4.

However, the land must be rezoned from agricultural to country residential before the subdivision process can proceed. It is this application that Beaver County Council is considering and the reason for the Dec. 14 public hearing.

Particular information from the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association, which is located adjacent to the property in question, led council to delay any decision after the public hearing.



One pro-development councillor felt the information could stymie this and other applications, due to the potential danger of a firing range being so close to houses being built nearby. Dennis Miciak (Division 4) went to so far as to suggest the gun club might have to be shut down if it hampered the county’s desire to encourage growth that would increase the local population.

Patrick Harris, President of the Sherwood Park Fish and Game Association, warned council of the potential for stray bullets to travel far enough as to enter the perimeter of the proposed subdivision, stating putting a subdivision down range of their property “doesn’t make sense.”

More see the Dec. 20/11 issue of the Tofield Mercury

So what does that have to do with AFGA? The article does not even mention them. The ACA which is a separate organization bought land bordering the range, to prevent development of the area, which happens to benefit both them and SPFGA. By preventing the land from becoming a subdivision, SPFGA is also contributing to conservation. Looking at the history on their website, SPFGA is the result of two clubs combining, one a conservation group, and the other a shooting group, it isn't just a conservation club.

In November 1962 the club amalgamated with the Sherwood Park Pistol and Rifle Club,

So given how much revenue the range memberships bring in, why should so ,much of that revenue be given to AFGA, instead of being used to improve and maintain the facility, that the members pay to use?

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Exactly and getting liability insurance is not nearly as big an issue as the AFHA would have a person believe
Cat

Both of you are referring to a shooting range like 'way out there ' in the boonies. This is a discussion about the Sherwood Park Fish and Game property, a 'Resort', about 1000 acres, 1 hr east of a million + people , and situated in high density residential area where the land is subdivided into hundreds of small parcels.
Please explain your reasoning/logic by comparing shooting activity at a Fort Mac range to the Sherwood Park range. Down range from the benches at SPF&G, within with 2 miles, there is about 200 residences (or more). Down range in a 2 mile area of the Fort Mac range, in the muzzle blast area, count up the houses and tell us how many.
I live 1 1/2 (Maybe 2) miles west and 1/2 mile south of the shooting benches at the Sherwood Park range. I can hear the gunshots inside my house, not all shots, but some shots. Be understanding and sympathetic to those that live in the muzzle blast area.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

Both of you are referring to a shooting range like 'way out there ' in the boonies. This is a discussion about the Sherwood Park Fish and Game property, a 'Resort', about 1000 acres, 1 hr east of a million + people , and situated in high density residential area where the land is subdivided into hundreds of small parcels.
Please explain your reasoning/logic by comparing shooting activity at a Fort Mac range to the Sherwood Park range. Down range from the benches at SPF&G, within with 2 miles, there is about 200 residences (or more). Down range in a 2 mile area of the Fort Mac range, in the muzzle blast area, count up the houses and tell us how many.
I live 1 1/2 (Maybe 2) miles west and 1/2 mile south of the shooting benches at the Sherwood Park range. I can hear the gunshots inside my house, not all shots, but some shots. Be understanding and sympathetic to those that live in the muzzle blast area.

My local range is actually within our city limits, and many city residents can definitely hear the gunshots. Now if we were to affiliate with AFGA, that would not change what the city residents can hear, or reduce the impact on the surrounding area. And that also applies to SPFGA. So what do SPFGA members actually receive in benefits, by paying an extra $60 per year in memberships, so that SPFGA can remain affiliated with AFGA? Many SPFGA members would like to hear the answer, especially the ones that were upset with the membership increase for 2021.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

Both of you are referring to a shooting range like 'way out there ' in the boonies. This is a discussion about the Sherwood Park Fish and Game property, a 'Resort', about 1000 acres, 1 hr east of a million + people , and situated in high density residential area where the land is subdivided into hundreds of small parcels.
Please explain your reasoning/logic by comparing shooting activity at a Fort Mac range to the Sherwood Park range. Down range from the benches at SPF&G, within with 2 miles, there is about 200 residences (or more). Down range in a 2 mile area of the Fort Mac range, in the muzzle blast area, count up the houses and tell us how many.
I live 1 1/2 (Maybe 2) miles west and 1/2 mile south of the shooting benches at the Sherwood Park range. I can hear the gunshots inside my house, not all shots, but some shots. Be understanding and sympathetic to those that live in the muzzle blast area.

Playing devil's advocate, why on earth would you buy a home within earshot of one of the largest gun ranges in the province? Does not seem like a wise move by any measure.

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

My local range is actually within our city limits, and many city residents can definitely hear the gunshots. Now if we were to affiliate with AFGA, that would not change what the city residents can hear, or reduce the impact on the surrounding area. And that also applies to SPFGA. So what do SPFGA members actually receive in benefits, by paying an extra $60 per year in memberships, so that SPFGA can remain affiliated with AFGA? Many SPFGA members would like to hear the answer, especially the ones that were upset with the membership increase for 2021.

Within city limits but how close ?
Number of residents within the muzzle blast area as described in the Sherwood Park discussion ?
Members of SPF&G that do not want to contribute to Conservation projects can buy a membership elsewhere, like at your Fort Mac range.
Members that do not enjoy the camp ground can move on.
Members that do not enjoy the nature trails can move on.
Members that do not enjoy the Chalet can move on.
Members that do not want to enjoy shooting over multiple days while staying at the camp ground can move to the Fort Mac range and rent lodgings in Fort Mac ( Does the Fort Mac range have a camp ground ?)
Does the Fort mac range have a camp site with a near by Chalet that has a full kitchen with showers ? Use everything for free ! And a barbecue !
If your not aware or able to enjoy these, and many more benefits, for the $60, leave !

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by sns2

Playing devil's advocate, why on earth would you buy a home within earshot of one of the largest gun ranges in the province? Does not seem like a wise move by any measure.

In the past I have posted discussions about Slimy Realtors. I have posted the listings so see if they still show up. There was a property listed on the road about 400 yds from the gate. It was described as the most peaceful , most quiet place , not quite on earth, but a place nearby earth.
A subdivision was just put up for sale last summer, about 3/4 mile west of the range. Check if there are still listings for Lafeyette Estates. These are the lands of silence.
Shooting is prohibited after 8 p.m. Guess when the realtors show properties near the range.
A previous president had public maps for the area show the range property. With real estate listings you can go to a map that shows the surrounding properties.
Well the slime bucket realtors were somehow able to have the range property removed from the map in their listing.
I haven't been to the range in about the past 2 months but the sign on the gate does not say anything about a shooting range.
The township road 504 north of the range has no range signs. This is where the County has spent millions for intensive housing development.
If you go to the range turning onto twp road 502 from highway 833 you will see no range signs. The sign at the turn-off is one sided facing west.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

Within city limits but how close ?
Number of residents within the muzzle blast area as described in the Sherwood Park discussion ?
Members of SPF&G that do not want to contribute to Conservation projects can buy a membership elsewhere, like at your Fort Mac range.
Members that do not enjoy the camp ground can move on.
Members that do not enjoy the nature trails can move on.
Members that do not enjoy the Chalet can move on.
Members that do not want to enjoy shooting over multiple days while staying at the camp ground can move to the Fort Mac range and rent lodgings in Fort Mac ( Does the Fort Mac range have a camp ground ?)
Does the Fort mac range have a camp site with a near by Chalet that has a full kitchen with showers ? Use everything for free ! And a barbecue !
If your not aware or able to enjoy these, and many more benefits, for the $60, leave !

How close, within a mile or so of the range. Hundreds of homes within two miles. Fort McMurray has a heated, air conditioned clubhouse with full kitchen, showers , BBQ, walking trails for archery and blackpowder, and cabins to stay in overnight at shoots, or just for a night out away from the city. And there is an indoor range in the basement. As for ranges, they have 1000m rifle, nine handgun bays. Three trap fields, a skeet field, rimfire range , biathlon range and an archery range. It would be hard to find a better all around range in Alberta, and most SPFGA members would love to have such a facility if it was an option here.
As for who should stay or leave SPFGA, and where the money should go, shouldn't the membership have input into that? With over 5000 range members, paying over $800,000 in memberships, that is only fair. And apparently the executive agrees, since they sent the poll out to the members asking for input.

[wind drift]

The sole reason I choose to pay annual fees to SPFGA is for range privileges. If no longer being affiliated with AFGA resulted in those fees being lowered or more funds being available for range maintenance or reinvestment in amenities, I am fully in support of breaking away. I suspect the large majority of SPFGA members share that reason for paying their fees.

This may well be the case for other members of AFGA affiliated clubs. I think the AFGA is an organization in decline. The club culture is dying, being replaced by online communities. COVID is just adding force to this broader, generational change. The average age of the small proportion of AFGA members who attend meetings and non-range events is likely considerably higher than that of the overall membership. I just don’t see this trend reversing.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by wind drift

The sole reason I choose to pay annual fees to SPFGA is for range privileges. If no longer being affiliated with AFGA resulted in those fees being lowered or more funds being available for range maintenance or reinvestment in amenities, I am fully in support of breaking away. I suspect the large majority of SPFGA members share that reason for paying their fees.

This may well be the case for other members of AFGA affiliated clubs. I think the AFGA is an organization in decline. The club culture is dying, being replaced by online communities. COVID is just adding force to this broader, generational change. The average age of the small proportion of AFGA members who attend meetings and non-range events is likely considerably higher than that of the overall membership. I just don’t see this trend reversing.

Exactly the point I was making. Be sure to fill out the poll and let the executive know how you feel.

[hilt134]

The Clun near Canmore wanted close to a thousand start up and nearly half that every year

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

How close, within a mile or so of the range. Hundreds of homes within two miles. Fort McMurray has a heated, air conditioned clubhouse with full kitchen, showers , BBQ, walking trails for archery and blackpowder, and cabins to stay in overnight at shoots, or just for a night out away from the city. And there is an indoor range in the basement. As for ranges, they have 1000m rifle, nine handgun bays. Three trap fields, a skeet field, rimfire range , biathlon range and an archery range. It would be hard to find a better all around range in Alberta, and most SPFGA members would love to have such a facility if it was an option here.
As for who should stay or leave SPFGA, and where the money should go, shouldn't the membership have input into that? With over 5000 range members, paying over $800,000 in memberships, that is only fair. And apparently the executive agrees, since they sent the poll out to the members asking for input.

Sounds like an awesome facility.
And how many members ?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

Sounds like an awesome facility.
And how many members ?

When I left, there were around 2000 members. Membership was $200 per year when I left, so about $400,000 in annual revenue, but since all of the revenue was used to maintain and upgrade the facility, we managed to put together a very impressive facility for the members.

[Gifted Intuitive]

Originally Posted by hilt134

The Clun near Canmore wanted close to a thousand start up and nearly half that every year

What is a 'clun' ?
Do you mean first time members pay around $1,000.
What is the name of the range ?

[Gifted Intuitive]

The founding members of SGFG moved to its current location after being forced to relocate. This occurred during an era when hunting and guns were fashioned after a "classic" sportsman image. The primary issue during this era was habitat loss. If you drove the countryside in Alberta and Saskatchewan you would see 1000's of acres that had the surface deforested and rows upon rows of brush piles. This habitat loss was alarming to see. Habitat loss was a major concern for hunting/gun owners and habitat organizations like the AFGA gained prominence. The gun crowd was very different during these times. If you can remember Custom Gun , the atmosphere had an aura of sophistication. Weatherby's were the uptown status symbol. When you were at the range you met gun owners that came to develop marksman ship to make their gun shot better.(There was a member named Walther, very German, that could shoot his Win 94 with open sights, in the top half of the class in competitions. I think 260 Rem advised us of his passing.) Do you get the picture of where and when the SPFGA started.
What is the foremost concern now ? It is the loss of Gun habitat and Gun confiscation. On this forum it has been asked why organizations like the AFGA does not take a position supporting gun habitat and gun ownership.
Well the gun community was outsmarted. Someone from the AFGA responded and said they would loose their charity status if they supported lobby organizations. Gun owners have strongly believed guns are necessary for wildlife management (major stupid thinking). Gun confiscation is a reality given the recent order-in-council. If all the money that went to wildlife habitat, went to gun habitat, our freedom to enjoy firearms would be far greater. If money from hunting license sales went to gun habitat , things would be better. All you Nixon admirers, get on it !

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

Both of you are referring to a shooting range like 'way out there ' in the boonies. This is a discussion about the Sherwood Park Fish and Game property, a 'Resort', about 1000 acres, 1 hr east of a million + people , and situated in high density residential area where the land is subdivided into hundreds of small parcels.
Please explain your reasoning/logic by comparing shooting activity at a Fort Mac range to the Sherwood Park range. Down range from the benches at SPF&G, within with 2 miles, there is about 200 residences (or more). Down range in a 2 mile area of the Fort Mac range, in the muzzle blast area, count up the houses and tell us how many.
I live 1 1/2 (Maybe 2) miles west and 1/2 mile south of the shooting benches at the Sherwood Park range. I can hear the gunshots inside my house, not all shots, but some shots. Be understanding and sympathetic to those that live in the muzzle blast area.

I don't give a damm personally where you live my comment was about insurance and how the AFGA tried to use it as a lever for our members,nothing more.
You are the one who has started comparing our range to the
Sherrod Park Range .
Liability insurance has to do with safety of a range and if the range is an approved range then any safety issues would be addressed.
I will not be commenting any more about this, you need to try and pick a fight with someone else.
Cat

[338Bluff]

So through all of this has the SPFGA not been submitting resolutions to AFGA? Not sending voting delegates to the AGM?

I'm not understanding what the issue is other than some big winded diatribes from some guys who have an obvious axe to grind. I am not here to engage in an argument. Exactly what is the issue?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

So through all of this has the SPFGA not been submitting resolutions to AFGA? Not sending voting delegates to the AGM?

I'm not understanding what the issue is other than some big winded diatribes from some guys who have an obvious axe to grind. I am not here to engage in an argument. Exactly what is the issue?

SPFGA raised range fees significantly this year, and AFGA raising their fees significantly was a big reason for that. That in itself made some people question the value of handing over hundreds of thousands of dollars to AFGA every year. In the monthly SPFGA newsletter, a poll was included, that asked members if they wanted to remain affiliated with AFGA, or not. That is the short story.