Suppressors whats your thoughts to fight to get them legal in canada

[rugatika]

Jeez Louise. Why not? I never get all these stupid laws...well I do, they're meant to appease the drooling masses that the gov is doing something. Murder is already illegal, so is shooting someone...yet outlawing an "item" is suddenly going to make would be killer impotent?? Please.

[catnthehat]

Southernman also uses one in New Zealand, they have advantages but IIRC he didn't like the added weight and they are aa bit clumsy with their extra length.
Cat

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

BDB.....RyRy is Canadian thru and through Sir

So what if hes canadian his post would have been legitimate anyway bdb is showing his canadian thin skinnedness

[connexion123]

I'm for them being allowed. Lets get ALL of the firearms act repealed.

[BlackHeart]

It's a lot like gun registration....only the law abiding are affected and the criminal element break the the law regardless of restrictions.

Poaching: again do you think poachers are concerned with the current laws? There are a few operating in one of the area I hunt.....they use .22 caliber for the limited noise.....found the casing and bloody drag marks.....I have an idea who they are, but no solid proof yet.....just know who I've come across still cruising after dusk, while on my way out.

So do you really think a suppressor is going to change things for them? Actually it might improve things.....as they are going to move to a bigger caliber and wound less game.....once they've got their fill, I am assume most stop.....unless they are trophy hunting or market hunting. I would also bet poacher don't like to use more than one shot and abandon the game if another is required based on most law/others needing two shot to sound locate where the activity is occurring.

Criminals already know to use small caliber quieter guns. Or to not hang around their shootings, or find isolated spots to conduct acts, or use knives, or use the gun to only force compliance. So I doubt legalized suppessors are going to have the least impact on their habits....or the predetermined outcomes.

So the real question is how would allowing legal gun owners and hunters to use suppessors negatively affect society.

Or is it just another case of alarmist law making?

[stemorholake]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I have no issue with their use on ranges only.

For hunting...I feel that we have enough advantage over animals already and that loud bangs are a benefit from a safety perspective.

The fly in the ointment of course is that they would no doubt become very attractive to hoods and idiots... exposing us all to more bad press.

Agreed fully...they would end up in the wrong hands and we would look like the irresponsible gun owners.

[Hat in the Cat]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Myth, It actually increases your speed because you are increasing barrel length and also accuracy is not effect, just the same as with a brake.

The rifle length may be longer but not the barrel.

A suppressor is essentially a collection of muzzle brakes to collect and cool, which in turn slows down the gases behind the bullet so they do not leave above the speed of sound. It is the exiting of the supersonic gases and unburnt propellant that causes the sonic boom upon firing.

The gases have already imparted the velocity on the projectile prior to this process so there should not be any noticeable change in MV.

[KegRiver]

The way I see it, there's no reason to ban them being used by ethical hunters, but what about poachers?

It's bad enough the way things are, if suppressors/silencers were legal to use, I'd bet that every poacher would use them and that I suspect would make detecting illegal hunting activity just that much harder.

So my thought is, the advantages they offer ethical hunters are far outweighed by the disadvantages of having every poacher using them.

Now if we could keep them out of the hands of poachers, I'd be 100% for them.

[crunchiespg]

Having lived in a country that allows suppressors, and having used them for work and recreational purposes, I must say a lot of the stuff in this topic falls into myth territory.

They generally improve accuracy, but may change your point of impact slightly, but the groups do tighten in most cases.
They don't effect muzzle velocity.
They don't effect range.

Hearing protection is not sufficient for most centrefire calibres. You are still in a dangerous range of volumes with even the best ear defenders. Even double plugged, especially as so much noise goes through the bones of your skull.
Most suppressors on centrefire rifles won't lower it below hearing protection levels, so still a good idea to use ear defenders.
They do nothing for the supersonic crack.
These last two points combined mean that poachers won't suddenly become an issue. They are not like the movies. A suppressed 308 is still louder than an unsuppressed .22 generally. And the supersonic crack is still present, but that noise does disperse more quickly and is less disturbing to wildlife.

I've just been invited by a commercial suppressor manufacturer here in alberta to help demonstrate suppressors to some MP's in the next few weeks.
So the government are interested.
The law in Europe was almost identical to here, and the health and safety laws say the same thing. As soon as that is challenged it's almost impossible they wouldn't be allowed. The workplace laws says you must take mechanical measures to reduce noise, not just make people wear hearing protection. The source of noise must be reduced where possible.

Having used them both professionally and personally I'd have them on every rifle I own. There are barely any reasons not to.

Here's an interesting read.

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/Imag...uppressors.pdf

I'll report back what the MP's say after the demo.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by Hat in the Cat

The rifle length may be longer but not the barrel.

A suppressor is essentially a collection of muzzle brakes to collect and cool, which in turn slows down the gases behind the bullet so they do not leave above the speed of sound. It is the exiting of the supersonic gases and unburnt propellant that causes the sonic boom upon firing.

The gases have already imparted the velocity on the projectile prior to this process so there should not be any noticeable change in MV.

Excellent explanation but I always thought that the threaded end and the start of the suppressor added 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch depending on design. I know it doesn't add much but it is a slight increase. I think it is called "suppressor boost"

[crunchiespg]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Excellent explanation but I always thought that the threaded end and the start of the suppressor added 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch depending on design. I know it doesn't add much but it is a slight increase. I think it is called "suppressor boost"

The threaded part of the barrel goes from the crown backwards and the suppressor threads over this.
Immediately after the crown the suppressor is considerably wider than the barrel diameter. Otherwise you could have a rough/turbulent spot if it was the same diameter where the bullet went from the real barrel into the tight part of the suppressor. And you would lose the nice crown at the end of your barrel.

So they are no different to a muzzle brake with a cover fitted essentially. And do not add extra barrel length.

In theory the slight increase in pressure around the muzzle may continue to push the bullet for a fraction of a second. But I've never seen a measurable difference over a chronograph when shooting with or without a suppressor.

[lake side]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

The way I see it, there's no reason to ban them being used by ethical hunters, but what about poachers?

It's bad enough the way things are, if suppressors/silencers were legal to use, I'd bet that every poacher would use them and that I suspect would make detecting illegal hunting activity just that much harder.

So my thought is, the advantages they offer ethical hunters are far outweighed by the disadvantages of having every poacher using them.

Now if we could keep them out of the hands of poachers, I'd be 100% for them.

This goes right to the heart of gun control issues.

Law abiding citizens are not the issue, it's always the turds in the soup that seem to be the problem. Don't take away all guns or surpressors in this case, but make the laws stiffer for poachers.

I would love to build my own and legally use it.


LS

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

The threaded part of the barrel goes from the crown backwards and the suppressor threads over this.
Immediately after the crown the suppressor is considerably wider than the barrel diameter. Otherwise you could have a rough/turbulent spot if it was the same diameter where the bullet went from the real barrel into the tight part of the suppressor. And you would lose the nice crown at the end of your barrel.

So they are no different to a muzzle brake with a cover fitted essentially. And do not add extra barrel length.

In theory the slight increase in pressure around the muzzle may continue to push the bullet for a fraction of a second. But I've never seen a measurable difference over a chronograph when shooting with or without a suppressor.

Thanks, having used them and obviously more experience than me I appreciate the info.

[southernman]

I have two rifles in New Zealand set up with suppressors. A CZ .17 hrm and a 2506. Seams a few folks don't understand how much they reduce noise.
It's still noisy if it's above the speed of sound. A suppressor can only silence a sub sonic rifle round ie .22sub or .300 wisper. I have had a play with a sub sonic .308 and gave it up for a .222. Poor range and very slow killing.
I recond it's about a 20-30 debical reduction, and it's harder for someone or an aminal to determine the source of the sound. often a mob of deer will mill about for a few seconds while they figger out what way to flee.
Don't much matter her in Canada, but in NZ you can shoot as many as you can carry the meat out.
They have there uses, but do affect the balance and handling of the rifle. any noise reduction is good in a built up area.
I don't normally use one in the bush when hunting. And will normally carry one in a day pack in open country.
Mine are both over barrel suppressors and thread on to the out side of the barrel, the thread is one third of the way down the length of the suppressor.
Many guys chop the barrel shorter and fit a suppressor to about the factory lenth.
Am taking my older modle 70 in 7x57 back for the roar in NZ next month and am going to chop to 18" and fit a DPT over barrel suppressor.
Some place on here I posted up a couple of photos of my rifles in November. Can't find the link.

[southernman]

Found the thread. Can't cut and paste on this I pad. 30th Nov 2013. if anyone wants to see how they look on a finlight or a CZ American.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy Badger

I think you know what my point is.

As for coming up here....great... but I'd offer up the suggestion that if your intent is senslessly bash this country... that you barely know...perhaps it isn't the country for you.

Canada was founded upon the principles of Peace, Order and Good Government and in my mind 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

The US was founded on significantly different principles and seems to be failing miserably at most of them right now along with Peace Order and Good Government.

IOW we are far less a police state than that within which you currently live.... with the exception of some portions of our gun laws.

I do not lack the integrity to be enable myself to flip flop... I am Canadian and my loyalty is not divided or or swayed by confused loyalty.

I might dislike the government at times just like anyone else but I do not feel it is appropriate to express that by offering to insult all of my fellow citisens.
The government is not the nation nor is it the country.

Further, having spent no small portion of my life directly and actively opposing things like you suggest we are... and having lost friends doing that... I find the comment highly offensive.

Perhaps had you done the same you'd get that and be a bit less casual about throwing statements like that around....especially as an outsider looking in.

We are different than the US but we are far more different than the Soviet Union was and in may ways Canadians are more free than Americans have been in a very very long time.

YYYikes!!!

[rugatika]

Maybe we should pass a law that bowhunters have to yell BANG!!! in a bull horn when they shoot an arrow. To stop bowhunters from poaching ya know.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

YYYikes!!!

.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

YYYikes!!!

Sorry... there 's a bit of history at play here.
Last thing I'll say about that.

To the OP...sorry for my part in someone elses attempt to derail...we all have triggers.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Maybe we should pass a law that bowhunters have to yell BANG!!! in a bull horn when they shoot an arrow. To stop bowhunters from poaching ya know.

Apples and Oranges and you know it.

[toomanyhobbies]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Apples and Oranges and you know it.

Not really. Odds are good that poachers aren't heard anyway, it's just another gunshot. We do get quite a few of those out in the countryside you know. It would be most helpful in SW Ontario where there are a lot of people spread out everywhere to reduce the noise a bit. At the range it would help too.

It all boils down to whether you think there has to be a rule for everything, or you let people alone.

[Mulehahn]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Apples and Oranges and you know it.

It is and it isn't. Yes a suppressed rifle could shoot further, but most poachers operate near road ways and do not risk shooting and animal hundreds of meters off the road and being spotted so a bow would be ideal for poaching in most situations.

To address the issue of suppressors, they should be aloud. They so not make rifles "quiet," rather just make them palatable for most people. Especially near ranges. I do not know the reason so many ranges have closed in Alberta, but I after living in BC I know many ranges have been threatened and some closed because of residents complained, even thought in most cases the ranges were there first. Times could be set up that require the use of suppressors, such as before 8:30 and after 6 or something. I would much rather see our firearm right grow while trying to work with other groups then lose what dwindling rights we have!

[357mag]

The people that would misuse them, don't care about the law anyway, so why ban law abiding people from having them too? Poachers are going to poach, regardless of having a silencer or not. Gangbangers are going to do drivebys, silencer or not. So really why not? A law only affects those that would follow it in the first place. Any machinist that knows what they're about could make one, but they don't. Why? Because it's illegal. Won't stop someone that doesn't care about the law in the first place. Make them legal, and make it hurt real bad for misusing them (additional non-reducible 2 year sentence in addition to whatever other charges are pressed?). Simple. But we don't live in a world of common sense.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by crunchiespg

They generally improve accuracy, but may change your point of impact slightly, but the groups do tighten in most cases.
They don't effect muzzle velocity.
They don't effect range.

Just for the record I am not arguing this point with you. I have no experience or practical knowledge of a silencer. I have a question though. If a suppressor changes the point of aim would that not have changed either muzzle velocity or range of the rifle? Possibly an insignificant amount whether positive or negative?

[calgarychef]

Just think how supressors would benefit the neighbours to gun ranges. I've used suppressed firearms in the UK and as pointed out they still make a big noise and would be little use to poachers. They would help my ears though! Honestly guns are a LOT more pleasant to shoot with them and I see NO. Reason to disallow them. I think we will see them legalised here before too long.

[mikhughe]

I don't want to talk anymore nonsense than I have to but I heard or was told somewhere that when hunting animals it's better to kill them as instant as possible for some good reasons. One of those is that if it starts to run after it gets hit and starts panicking and so forth it releases endorphins and hormones into its blood stream and depending on how fast it dies the taste of the meat could be affected quite negatively. It may not be true but it sort of makes sense to me. So suppressors may make that a bit better? I guess.

Hearing the report of a firearms can be sort of a safety for other hunters in some cases though.

I never thought about it before but after reading some other responses here, use at the range would be amazing. It can ruin your experience sometimes if you go to site in and the guy beside you is shooting a cannon.

[fatboyz]

The reason the point of impact changes slightly is that the barrel harmonics are changed, same as when you add a brake.

[Mekanik]

Originally Posted by lake side

This goes right to the heart of gun control issues.

Law abiding citizens are not the issue, it's always the turds in the soup that seem to be the problem. Don't take away all guns or surpressors in this case, but make the laws stiffer for poachers.

LS

X2

The notion that I can't be trusted with An object because someone else might misuse it is insulting. We are all responsible for our own actions and should be punished or rewarded accordingly.

[Matt L.]

Range noise is the biggest reason to allow supressors. I also suspect it's the biggest reason not to allow them.

[58thecat]

While the nice people here pick fights, run each other down etc I will answer the original question as in a yes it would be awesome to be able to legally use a suppressor. I shoot a lot of 22 on my acreage at steel targets and know the locals wonder what the heck is going on sometime as I light up the Ruger and for fun run 25 through her as fast as I can switch mags and run another 25 through her...my idea of burning off some steam