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Old 08-15-2017, 10:15 PM
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3blade 3blade is offline
 
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Default Stuck patch/cable...I screwed up

Ever have one of those days where nothing goes right?

Was cleaning my Winchester M88 this morning, using the Otis cable/pull through system. All clean, took the bore guide out and gonna run one last dry patch through to make sure the chamber and throat is clean. I don't know if I used the wrong size or doubled up the patch, but it gave me a little resistance at the start, and my mind was admittedly elsewhere so I did the stupidest thing possible. I gave it a real hard tug. Oh...****.

Tried pushing it back out with the cable, nope. Tried getting a hook in it from the chamber, nope. Poured a bunch of CLP down the barrel and let it sit for a few hours, nope. Tried hemostats from the chamber, nope just ripped a few threads off. Tried a small wooden dowel, nope, the one that fits down the barrel with the cable taking up space is too small to hammer on.

Short of a trip to a gunsmith and the usual hydraulic method, any ideas? Or gunsmith recommendations in the morinville/st albert/north Edmonton region?
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:32 AM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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Default Crud

We do a couple of Otis cable removals a year, it's not uncommon unfortunately. We use a perfectly fitted brass rod and oil as a lube and tap it out. Usually requires holding your longue just right. I am a believer that this is less harmful than the hydraulic form, but not everyone agrees.
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:00 AM
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Usually the Otis cable can be removed by simply turning or twisting the cable so it unscews from the jag and then u can use a proper sized push rod to remove the jag.
Hope this helps. Good luck
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:23 AM
propliner propliner is offline
 
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Yes, used a brass rod tapped smartly with a small hammer. I found the perfect rod at Can Tire.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:19 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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A bit of tightly wrapped electrical tape around a less well fitting rod might keep it centered away from the bore ...
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:29 AM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
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Call Rod Hendrickson.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:56 AM
BigJon BigJon is online now
 
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Pretty sure D'arcy Echols wrote an online article about removing a pull through cleaning device that broke off out of the bore.

May want to gogle that too...
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:58 AM
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http://echolsrifles.blogspot.ca/2015...e-bit.html?m=1
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:50 AM
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Default Stuck patch

Draino liquid
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl View Post
I am a believer that this is less harmful than the hydraulic form, but not everyone agrees.
What are your thoughts behind this?
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:04 AM
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I would try every possible method before using the hydraulic method myself.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:14 AM
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Why is that?
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Thanks, probably (exactly) what would have happened if I had tried any more bright ideas of my own. since this rifle is a family heirloom I'll be taking it to Rod.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:49 PM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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Default force

Ive been unable to find a true way of measuring the actual force exerted on the barrel internally. I have not slugged one following the hydraulic method but suspect you can likely note some swelling, even if minor. As opposed to a brass rod nick on a land requiring a light lapping. Also haven't had issues removing them our way, even after the client has mashed it pretty good, such as the one in the picture. I'm not claiming to be right here either, just know what has worked for me. Also, the article is about a bore snake, an Otis is a whole different monster, the pic attached below is an OTIS as the OP has stuck. By the way, I've never had to remove a cleaning rod before, but eventually everything happens once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
What are your thoughts behind this?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3257.jpg (27.7 KB, 178 views)

Last edited by Full Curl Earl; 08-16-2017 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Add
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:53 AM
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Remind me to never use an Otis pull through. Yikes that looks ugly.
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:08 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Just curious, but does anyone know what kind of pressure the hydraulic method produces? Does it actually produce anywhere near the pressure that is produced when the rifle is fired?
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:44 AM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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Default No

For me its the sustained force acting on the barrel with the hydraulics. Firing a cartridge produces high pressures briefly, not the prolonged force being held for a significant time frame, relatively, as in hydraulics. I believe any small deformation caused by the process isn't allowed to return quickly and can result in metal memory. And I have no evidence of this, nor am I interested in proving it's validity. Just one guys opinion.
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:53 AM
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CaberTosser CaberTosser is offline
 
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For all of those who think some magical damage will result from using a hydraulic method for removal I ask them this: How long do hydraulic cylinders on heavy equipment such as excavators last? Note this equipment will also use demolition hammers and compacting shakers that pulse quite heavily..... compared to a hydraulic cylinder a firearm barrel also has a proportionally thicker wall when compared to its bore diameter (which correlates to surface area and subsequently to overall force)

A barrel will not suffer damage from the relatively low pressures necessary for pushing out an item stuck in the bore. They are designed for far higher pressures than that.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:08 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl View Post
For me its the sustained force acting on the barrel with the hydraulics. Firing a cartridge produces high pressures briefly, not the prolonged force being held for a significant time frame, relatively, as in hydraulics. I believe any small deformation caused by the process isn't allowed to return quickly and can result in metal memory. And I have no evidence of this, nor am I interested in proving it's validity. Just one guys opinion.
As long as the stresses that are introduced are below the yield point of the material, the barrel should return to the original dimensions.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:47 AM
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I have a chart that shows typical pressures as the bullet moves down the bore from a rifle company. It drops dramatically as it moves - that's why the muzzle can be so thin on some barrels and not cause problems. When you are using hydraulics the entire bore is holding the pressure - completely different then firing a bullet. Secondly, how much pressure can "your" barrel handle before a bulge forms? I'm sure there are rough calculations, but without actually trying it it's hard to be sure. As I said earlier, I would try every other possible method before turning to hydraulics. I too am not interested in arguing, or trying to prove anything - these are just another guys $0.02
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:08 AM
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3blade 3blade is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl View Post
Ive been unable to find a true way of measuring the actual force exerted on the barrel internally. I have not slugged one following the hydraulic method but suspect you can likely note some swelling, even if minor. As opposed to a brass rod nick on a land requiring a light lapping. Also haven't had issues removing them our way, even after the client has mashed it pretty good, such as the one in the picture. I'm not claiming to be right here either, just know what has worked for me. Also, the article is about a bore snake, an Otis is a whole different monster, the pic attached below is an OTIS as the OP has stuck. By the way, I've never had to remove a cleaning rod before, but eventually everything happens once.
Holy smokes....how could that even happen?? no, I don't have it that stuck. It's 100% just a patch that jammed in the throat. Should be easy for someone with the right tools, either brass or hydraulic.

Also, it's pretty much the only way to clean an 88, unfortunately. Works fine when the idiot I mean operator does his part
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:02 AM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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Default Huh

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser View Post
For all of those who think some magical damage will result from using a hydraulic method for removal I ask them this: How long do hydraulic cylinders on heavy equipment such as excavators last? Note this equipment will also use demolition hammers and compacting shakers that pulse quite heavily..... compared to a hydraulic cylinder a firearm barrel also has a proportionally thicker wall when compared to its bore diameter (which correlates to surface area and subsequently to overall force)

A barrel will not suffer damage from the relatively low pressures necessary for pushing out an item stuck in the bore. They are designed for far higher pressures than that.
But rifle barrels and hydraulic cylinders are not made of the same material, so there might be some "magic" that results in someone becoming a pirate! I am not willing to tell folks something is completely safe without evidence is all. I know exactly where the force I apply is concentrated, and how much is exerted, and that's fine with me. Maybe next time someone does the hydraulic op, they could place a series of .0001 dial indicators along the barrel where the pressure will be applied and see if they catch anything? Barrels come in all sorts of wall thickness and materials, so should start with a thin wall to begin!
Now that would be evidence.
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  #23  
Old 08-17-2017, 11:43 AM
qwert qwert is offline
 
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I have never needed to drill out an obstruction or use hydraulics, possibly because
I NEVER use a wood rod.

My experience is mostly slugging with soft lead and any of the several .250 and .188 brass welding rods which I keep for similar needs.
I really should have a larger brass rod for doing .338 & .45 work.
Usually a bullet jammed in the lands can be tapped out using just the weight of a .250 rod.
IMHE, when needed, a bigger hammer is better. Too small a hammer will just peen or swell stuff, and too big seems to be just right as the hammer does the work.

Here is some good discussion.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...ullet-249393/?

speerchucker30x3 is
http://rdhgunsmithing.com/index.html
he is a frequent contributor on several smithing forums.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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  #24  
Old 08-17-2017, 01:02 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Just curious, but does anyone know what kind of pressure the hydraulic method produces? Does it actually produce anywhere near the pressure that is produced when the rifle is fired?
I don't know for sure. I can not see it producing anywhere close to the pressure of firing.

With a .22 Cal barrel and 24,000psi (.22lr) you would exert a little over 930lbs of force on the obstruction. That seems like more than enough when a light tap off a brass rod removes the blockages as well. That's assuming you actually get anywhere near a 22lr firing pressure, which I highly doubt.

With the high pressure rounds (22-250) at 65,000psi you would exert just over 2500lbs of pushing force. Proof rounds going another 25+% above that yet.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:07 PM
BigJon BigJon is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3blade View Post
Holy smokes....how could that even happen?? no, I don't have it that stuck. It's 100% just a patch that jammed in the throat. Should be easy for someone with the right tools, either brass or hydraulic.

Also, it's pretty much the only way to clean an 88, unfortunately. Works fine when the idiot I mean operator does his part
Brass muzzle guide and clean from the muzzle end.

Better yet, get the bore cleaned to bare steel and apply dyna bore coat and going forward keep anything but bullets out of the bore 'til you see a good reason to get in there with a cleaning device.
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  #26  
Old 08-17-2017, 11:38 PM
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Is this whole scenario about a patch in the bore or other junk? Too funny or "laughable" actually.

Last edited by gitrdun; 08-17-2017 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
Is this whole scenario about a patch in the bore or other junk? Too funny or "laughable" actually.
Huh?
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
Is this whole scenario about a patch in the bore or other junk? Too funny or "laughable" actually.


Please tell us what you're laughing about.
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Old 08-18-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
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Remind me to never use an Otis pull through. Yikes that looks ugly.
I had never seen one, but agree I would not want one of those stuck. No chance I will ever try one now.
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