Draw system overhaul

[35 whelen]

I'm not saying outfitting is the problem as far as tags maybe we get a few more ,but I highly believe that residents should have priority over some paying nonresident alien that can come every year, a If you're not a millionaire like some people on these forms times are going to get even tougher fuel, cost off food, lack of work, A residents should come first.

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[cody j]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Yes they are a problem - I know it won’t change the wait by much but non residents should not get tags over residents. Principles and perception matter if you want residents to buy into wildlife management. There is no reason a person can’t prove residency, and build priority while in a 3-5 year wait. Most tags take that long or longer anyway, and it would get rid of the pretenders

Unregulated….well no one likes it but that ain’t changing as long as we’re attached to Ottawa.

Your version of “hunting” doesn’t line up with the majority of Alberta residents. Very few are interested in flying around the world and plugging big horned animals. You think people are jealous or “cheap” but they aren’t, just different. Most of us want to hunt every year, eat wild game and occasionally draw an interesting tag. Horns often get fed to the family dog or tossed in the garage or garden. Score is for hockey games. I don’t begrudge you your safaris but don’t pretend that b&c records are the priority for management.

3-5 years is way too long, why would anyone want to take 5 years off hunting because they moved.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Yes they are a problem - I know it won’t change the wait by much but non residents should not get tags over residents. Principles and perception matter if you want residents to buy into wildlife management. There is no reason a person can’t prove residency, and build priority while in a 3-5 year wait. Most tags take that long or longer anyway, and it would get rid of the pretenders

Unregulated….well no one likes it but that ain’t changing as long as we’re attached to Ottawa.

Your version of “hunting” doesn’t line up with the majority of Alberta residents. Very few are interested in flying around the world and plugging big horned animals. You think people are jealous or “cheap” but they aren’t, just different. Most of us want to hunt every year, eat wild game and occasionally draw an interesting tag. Horns often get fed to the family dog or tossed in the garage or garden. Score is for hockey games. I don’t begrudge you your safaris but don’t pretend that b&c records are the priority for management.

You know that you can’t be a resident in two provinces right?
So if your a resident of alberta waiting 3-5 years you can’t hunt anywhere else as a resident either.

My version of hunting? You do realize that I’m born and raised here. My family still owns the land that my descendants broke 100 years ago.

Here’s a news flash, there isn’t enough game for everyone to hunt all the species that they want as often as they would like. I have learned to accept this, you obviously haven’t. That is a big part of why I hunt elsewhere.. because there is more opportunities. Nothing is going to change the frequency that you are pulling a tag unless there is less people in the pool drawing from it. The standard for non resident harvest is 10% of the total opportunity. That is fair. The issue is not the 10% but the 90%. Regulated hunting opportunities are also going to decrease due to increased fn pressure. So things are going to get far worse. So you and your buddy’s thay go and shoot a pile of animals under treaty cards are far worse than any outfitter

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Increase the price of draws
Increase the price of tags
Pay for the tag when you apply
Decrease the amount of people that can be added to group draws
6 month residency for hunting privileges

Pretty simple

If you don’t want to pay to play then feel free to stick to general whitetail, supplemental deer, general elk or undersubscribed tags

Or how about you have to be a resident for 12 years with a proof of owning a piece of property in Alberta, (youth excluded) as they can only start hunting at age 12 anyways. Get rid of all non resident hunting. Put draws back like it was, where it’s a random draw for tags and everyone has the same chance and once you pull that tag you automatically pay for the tag and can’t put in for that draw again for 3 years after. If you have never purchased a general whitetail, & Elk tag you cant apply either.

Pretty simple

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Yes they are a problem - I know it won’t change the wait by much but non residents should not get tags over residents. Principles and perception matter if you want residents to buy into wildlife management. There is no reason a person can’t prove residency, and build priority while in a 3-5 year wait. Most tags take that long or longer anyway, and it would get rid of the pretenders

Unregulated….well no one likes it but that ain’t changing as long as we’re attached to Ottawa.

Your version of “hunting” doesn’t line up with the majority of Alberta residents. Very few are interested in flying around the world and plugging big horned animals. You think people are jealous or “cheap” but they aren’t, just different. Most of us want to hunt every year, eat wild game and occasionally draw an interesting tag. Horns often get fed to the family dog or tossed in the garage or garden. Score is for hockey games. I don’t begrudge you your safaris but don’t pretend that b&c records are the priority for management.

There could be some changes to unregulated hunting. For example FN from out of province could and should have to follow the same rules as you and I. That’s how it’s done in BC.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

There could be some changes to unregulated hunting. For example FN from out of province could and should have to follow the same rules as you and I. That’s how it’s done in BC.

Forfeiture of head Should be mandatory on sustenance hunting
After all, it’s all about the meat right?

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Yeah if we all lived with mom and dad and had no families we would have lots of extra cash to spend hunting.

You should get your own jokes

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Forfeiture of head Should be mandatory on sustenance hunting
After all, it’s all about the meat right?

You'd think so

[FortMac]

Random draw tags aren't the answer.

10% of tags should go Random for a Unit and the other 90% to point holders.

Draws should cost more
Non residents should be capped at a certain % of draw tags, not a guaranteed %, just a maximum allowed
Mandatory hunter education course
Mandatory 1 year living in Alberta. Leave the province when you aren't working to "head home" and you aren't a Resident.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by cody j

3-5 years is way too long, why would anyone want to take 5 years off hunting because they moved.

My idea would be they can still hunt general tags and build priority, just can’t draw.

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You know that you can’t be a resident in two provinces right?
So if your a resident of alberta waiting 3-5 years you can’t hunt anywhere else as a resident either.

My version of hunting? You do realize that I’m born and raised here. My family still owns the land that my descendants broke 100 years ago.

Here’s a news flash, there isn’t enough game for everyone to hunt all the species that they want as often as they would like. I have learned to accept this, you obviously haven’t. That is a big part of why I hunt elsewhere.. because there is more opportunities. Nothing is going to change the frequency that you are pulling a tag unless there is less people in the pool drawing from it. The standard for non resident harvest is 10% of the total opportunity. That is fair. The issue is not the 10% but the 90%. Regulated hunting opportunities are also going to decrease due to increased fn pressure. So things are going to get far worse. So you and your buddy’s thay go and shoot a pile of animals under treaty cards are far worse than any outfitter

See above, looks like I wasn’t clear on what I meant.

I’m not treaty and I hunt alone. But if I get locked out by a bunch of rich guys then you can bet I’m not buying into your plans and will retaliate. That was my point - if we prioritize resident opportunities as much as the current political reality allows, it keeps things from going off the rails. It’s not what anyone thinks is ideal but it’s pretty damn good compared to everywhere else.

We aren’t going to agree so I’m just gonna leave it there.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Yeah if we all lived with mom and dad and had no families we would have lots of extra cash to spend hunting.

You might not be too far off! Easy to say raise the cost of draws and tags when you don’t have a mortgage payment, no house insurance, no property taxes, no utilities to pay every month, don’t have to worry about kids costs, and no vehicle payment. Maybe some are even collecting an alimony cheque every month!

[Hunter4ever12]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

I just recently completed the Mariam‘s turkey special license Hunt. I had a great time and realized that my 12-year-old who is going to be eligible to enter the draw system will never pull this tag with the current system. There are a few others that have the same problem. It may be time to upgrade our draw system to reflect the number of applicants. There needs to be a hybrid lottery system or something in the near future.
I think our draw system has been great but the reason for that is the number of applicants in past years. Change is now required. Any thoughts?

How’s it feel to start a thread that’s been beaten to death over and over on this forum?

[marky_mark]

I pulled a random year
2011
If you check our turkeys There was 10000 applicants
2021 There was 23000 applicants

Bull moose was roughly a 50% increase

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You might not be too far off! Easy to say raise the cost of draws and tags when you don’t have a mortgage payment, no house insurance, no property taxes, no utilities to pay every month, don’t have to worry about kids costs, and no vehicle payment. Maybe some are even collecting an alimony cheque every month!

If the cost of draws and buying licenses is the make or break point for you I’m not sure how your able to put gas in your truck to go out in the field? Maybe you just take the bus? I don’t know? Im a firm believer that if you really want to do something, you’ll find away. I also know that others would rather just complain and have their hand out looking for freebie’s

[marky_mark]

There’s no easy solution to the problem

The number of hunters is going down everywhere but in alberta

Maybe you put all the sheep draws on a lottery?
None of them have any significant amount of animals available?
Maybe do a 2 or 3 year transition with say the 50 highest priority holders
After that 100% lottery

Antelope and turkey
Increase the price of the tags and draws
Your not really doing these hunts for the meat
It’s cheaper to buy it at the store
A lot of people just apply because it’s too cheap not to

Elk moose mule deer
Increase the draw price and tag prices for bucks and bulls
Make a antlered animal 3x the amount of antlerless?
So if your hunting purely for the freezer you not getting left out, or if you taking the bus to you hunting spot. You don’t have to worry about bringing the antlers back with you

[HappyHunter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Increase the price of draws
Increase the price of tags
Pay for the tag when you apply
Decrease the amount of people that can be added to group draws
6 month residency for hunting privileges

Pretty simple

If you don’t want to pay to play then feel free to stick to general whitetail, supplemental deer, general elk or undersubscribed tags

I agree with your presented items, I think getting rid of the 999 would force people to either apply, be more strategic with there group draws, or not apply.
I originally liked the idea of building priority when they first implemented it, but feel it has pushed wait times up and out of reach for new hunters.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

If the cost of draws and buying licenses is the make or break point for you I’m not sure how your able to put gas in your truck to go out in the field? Maybe you just take the bus? I don’t know? Im a firm believer that if you really want to do something, you’ll find away. I also know that others would rather just complain and have their hand out looking for freebie’s

Like dirtshooter said when you live in mom's basement and get an alimony cheque money's no object. . Like I've stated before only allow 2 draws per year and get rid of priority only, this should ease some of the pressure.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by HappyHunter

I agree with your presented items, I think getting rid of the 999 would force people to either apply, be more strategic with there group draws, or not apply.
I originally liked the idea of building priority when they first implemented it, but feel it has pushed wait times up and out of reach for new hunters.

999 reduces the number of people drawing.

Ex: I have a p9 for antlered mule deer. Could have drawn on a 4, but I’m just keeping it in case my bow zone spot gets sold or goes dead. For the last 5 years someone else got to draw those tags. Force me to and I will, but that takes away your opportunity. Now yes one particular year I’m gonna jump into the lineup somewhere, but that’s 1 tag in what might turn out to be a decade.

Same with antlered moose. I had to put my vacation in ahead of the draws. So once the time off was secured, i drew with a p6 instead of the needed p4. Two years of extra tags going to someone who could make the time work

Why do you think that’s a bad deal?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by 3blade

999 reduces the number of people drawing.

Ex: I have a p9 for antlered mule deer. Could have drawn on a 4, but I’m just keeping it in case my bow zone spot gets sold or goes dead. For the last 5 years someone else got to draw those tags. Force me to and I will, but that takes away your opportunity. Now yes one particular year I’m gonna jump into the lineup somewhere, but that’s 1 tag in what might turn out to be a decade.

Same with antlered moose. I had to put my vacation in ahead of the draws. So once the time off was secured, i drew with a p6 instead of the needed p4. Two years of extra tags going to someone who could make the time work

Why do you think that’s a bad deal?

Exactly…
People who want to eliminate the 999/priority increase option don’t actually understand how it is a beneficial option…. Why do they think it was added in the first place?

I have explained it the same way you have… I use the grocery store scenario, I’m at the front of the line but my wife needs to grab another item…. So I let the person behind me go ahead, and I wait for her to come back so I can checkout… the person behind me checks out and gets home before I do. As soon as my wife comes back however it’s my turn in line…. So we checkout and go home.

999 allows those who aren’t in line to draw….to draw early, it also allows those eligible to draw first, to plan a bit ahead.

LC

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Exactly…
People who want to eliminate the 999/priority increase option don’t actually understand how it is a beneficial option…. Why do they think it was added in the first place?

I have explained it the same way you have… I use the grocery store scenario, I’m at the front of the line but my wife needs to grab another item…. So I let the person behind me go ahead, and I wait for her to come back so I can checkout… the person behind me checks out and gets home before I do. As soon as my wife comes back however it’s my turn in line…. So we checkout and go home.

999 allows those who aren’t in line to draw….to draw early, it also allows those eligible to draw first, to plan a bit ahead.

LC

Good analogy. Hope it helps a few understand better.

[MyAlberta]

Originally Posted by heretohunt

What has changed is we could realistically wait to draw a tag. New hunters will not have the same opportunity.
Definitely the non-resident posing as a resident problem needs to be addressed. I have a friend who has lived in Texas for 10 years and still has a resident win card.

I have an Alberta WIN, a Saskatchewan HAL and am testing for a BC FWID. If you are lying about your residency to advance your draw, or buy resident licenses, you are breaking the law. It's not a loophole.

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You might not be too far off! Easy to say raise the cost of draws and tags when you don’t have a mortgage payment, no house insurance, no property taxes, no utilities to pay every month, don’t have to worry about kids costs, and no vehicle payment. Maybe some are even collecting an alimony cheque every month!

I'd be paying alimony and living at home if I spent all my money on guided hunts lol. Maybe that's how it all starts....

[OL_JR]

I don't think there is any need for the jabs however I can't get behind a monetary solution to shortening draw waits. Work on the residency issue, tags for non residents. Maybe have a limited amount of tags per zone on lottery for residents etc...

For you that want to up the draw costs, what is a number you would be happy with?

Keep in mind, and I'm sure you guys have thought about this - it would have to be so absolutely cost prohibive that a lot of good people would simply be priced out. People who absolutely are as passionate and love the outdoors and hunting as much as you do.

Could be a sister, brother, good friend. Are you gonna look them in the eye and tell them that you were all for it?

[FortMac]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

I don't think there is any need for the jabs however I can't get behind a monetary solution to shortening draw waits. Work on the residency issue, tags for non residents. Maybe have a limited amount of tags per zone on lottery for residents etc...

For you that want to up the draw costs, what is a number you would be happy with?

Keep in mind, and I'm sure you guys have thought about this - it would have to be so absolutely cost prohibive that a lot of good people would simply be priced out. People who absolutely are as passionate and love the outdoors and hunting as much as you do.

Could be a sister, brother, good friend. Are you gonna look them in the eye and tell them that you were all for it?

$10-$15 per draw might work. Just needs to be enough to make someone think if they want it or not. $3 does nothing

[daveyn]

If you want to see some user input on the hybred priority draw system you are referring to you just need to take a look at the NB moose draw. It's pretty much the same system you are talking about and absolutely nobody is happy with that system. People waiting 25 years for a tag while others getting drawn 3 out of 5 years. it makes nobody happy and its pretty close to true lottery.
I believe the system we have is as fair a system as it could be, nobody gets drawn twice before anybody else has a turn that wants one. You get in line and wait your turn. If you want to put in for a tag in a zone with high apps and limited opps, well thats on you, but the only way you are ever going to get drawn is to keep putting in and get in line behind the guy who has been waiting longer than you have.
Our system, in my opinion, is fair and it works as well or better than just about any other one out there

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

I don't think there is any need for the jabs however I can't get behind a monetary solution to shortening draw waits. Work on the residency issue, tags for non residents. Maybe have a limited amount of tags per zone on lottery for residents etc...

For you that want to up the draw costs, what is a number you would be happy with?

Keep in mind, and I'm sure you guys have thought about this - it would have to be so absolutely cost prohibive that a lot of good people would simply be priced out. People who absolutely are as passionate and love the outdoors and hunting as much as you do.

Could be a sister, brother, good friend. Are you gonna look them in the eye and tell them that you were all for it?

Once it becomes "pay to play" as some here believe it should be it'll be a battle of the credit cards and eventually someone with more money than the previous "pay to play" endorser will up the ante and squeeze the original "pay to play" player out of the picture.

I mean there's a youtube video of a guy who paid for a sheep tag and a guy who drew the once in a lifetime sheep tag in the same unit it's called the duke hunt and it's a good example of what hunting can become with a pay to play mentality. They bring along the guy who drew the tag and tell him "you'll get your ram once we get my ram" as if it has already been decided that Mr Moneybags gets the bigger ram because he paid more. I'm guessing the only reason the guy who drew the tag was invited along was so that they could hold him back until the rich dude was finished shooting 8 rounds at "his" ram.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Once it becomes "pay to play" as some here believe it should be it'll be a battle of the credit cards and eventually someone with more money than the previous "pay to play" endorser will up the ante and squeeze the original "pay to play" player out of the picture.

I mean there's a youtube video of a guy who paid for a sheep tag and a guy who drew the once in a lifetime sheep tag in the same unit it's called the duke hunt and it's a good example of what hunting can become with a pay to play mentality. They bring along the guy who drew the tag and tell him "you'll get your ram once we get my ram" as if it has already been decided that Mr Moneybags gets the bigger ram because he paid more. I'm guessing the only reason the guy who drew the tag was invited along was so that they could hold him back until the rich dude was finished shooting 8 rounds at "his" ram.

Your complaining about a guy who bought a governors auction tag helping a guy who won the raffled tag?

You do know that the guy who won the auctioned tag, told the raffle winner that they know where the biggest rams in the state were. And if he wanted to kill a 190 inch plus ram he was more than welcome to come with them

That hunt is like our ministers tags… nothing to do with a normal draw
It’s like comparing apples to oranges
You can buy as many of those governor raffle tickets as you like. There is no limit like there is here, no daily cap.

[Dewey Cox]

"Now that I've drawn my tag, and am out of the running to ever get another, I think the draw system should be overhauled"

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You might not be too far off! Easy to say raise the cost of draws and tags when you don’t have a mortgage payment, no house insurance, no property taxes, no utilities to pay every month, don’t have to worry about kids costs, and no vehicle payment. Maybe some are even collecting an alimony cheque every month!

Really?

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Your complaining about a guy who bought a governors auction tag helping a guy who won the raffled tag?

You do know that the guy who won the auctioned tag, told the raffle winner that they know where the biggest rams in the state were. And if he wanted to kill a 190 inch plus ram he was more than welcome to come with them

That hunt is like our ministers tags… nothing to do with a normal draw
It’s like comparing apples to oranges
You can buy as many of those governor raffle tickets as you like. There is no limit like there is here, no daily cap.

Funny you say that, the gov tag holder in this case (Doug Sayer) was the chairman of WSF until 2016 or 2017.

All kinds of good reading on the subject of controversy when Doug was in that position with wsf. I'd like to thank the good folks at hunttalk for sharing.

Cliff notes: in 2016 it was released that Doug was pressing the ID governor to get rid of 2 IDFG commissioners who opposed his push to create more ID auction tags. The governor proceeded to not re-appoint the 2 commissioners who voted against Doug and in line with the residents of ID in this matter. The emails in relation to this were released after a FOIA request IIRC.

https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/hey...urtain.271624/

https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/rem...arming.271806/

These "pay to play" have done a great job convincing people and agencies that without the auction tags and special opportunities for them that wildlife conservation would suffer. They have weaseled their way in and built a model for themselves to have way more opportunity than the common man. At the end of the day it’s about filling a trophy room and bragging amongst themselves not conservation