Draw system overhaul

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Once it becomes "pay to play" as some here believe it should be it'll be a battle of the credit cards and eventually someone with more money than the previous "pay to play" endorser will up the ante and squeeze the original "pay to play" player out of the picture.

I mean there's a youtube video of a guy who paid for a sheep tag and a guy who drew the once in a lifetime sheep tag in the same unit it's called the duke hunt and it's a good example of what hunting can become with a pay to play mentality. They bring along the guy who drew the tag and tell him "you'll get your ram once we get my ram" as if it has already been decided that Mr Moneybags gets the bigger ram because he paid more. I'm guessing the only reason the guy who drew the tag was invited along was so that they could hold him back until the rich dude was finished shooting 8 rounds at "his" ram.

You need to do your homework

Many many states have
Governors tags
Commissioner’s tags
Super tags
Super raffles
Auctioned tags etc

Here’s a list of all of the places that offer opportunities above and beyond what you get from a basic draw

https://www.huntinfool.com/resources/statewide-permits

No shortage of people applying and entering

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Funny you say that, the gov tag holder in this case (Doug Sayer) was the chairman of WSF until 2016 or 2017.

All kinds of good reading on the subject of controversy when Doug was in that position with wsf. I'd like to thank the good folks at hunttalk for sharing.

Cliff notes: in 2016 it was released that Doug was pressing the ID governor to get rid of 2 IDFG commissioners who opposed his push to create more ID auction tags. The governor proceeded to not re-appoint the 2 commissioners who voted against Doug and in line with the residents of ID in this matter. The emails in relation to this were released after a FOIA request IIRC.

https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/hey...urtain.271624/

https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/rem...arming.271806/

These "pay to play" have done a great job convincing people and agencies that without the auction tags and special opportunities for them that wildlife conservation would suffer. They have weaseled their way in and built a model for themselves to have way more opportunity than the common man. At the end of the day it’s about filling a trophy room and bragging amongst themselves not conservation

You can apply as many times as you want for the same raffles and you can buy the same auctioned tags as them.

How many ministers raffle tags did you buy this year?

I bet you’ll still complain that you didn’t win even if you didn’t buy a ticket

[leeelmer]

Residency is huge, this needs to be fixed.
Second, FN hunting is huge, and yes there is a fix, but the gov doesn't want to
FN is Federal but wildlife management is provincial, so legally they could allow as much unregulated hunting on reserve land as they want, so not to impede there Indian Act law. But anywhere off of reserve land you must draw and buy tags(this is where the provincial government mandate to manage wildlife in the province comes in)
Outfitting on private land should be ended. Why? Because as soon as you include money(and some its alot) then you breed illegal activities, trespass, paying land owners and such.
This would solve most of the problems with tags in zones that have mostly owned land.
Fines for poaching should be at minimum the cost of a outfitted hunt, so if you poach a Bull Moose and it would cost $10000.00 usd to buy a outfitted hunt, that's what your fine is minimum.
10% of draw tags in each zone are lottery(or points hybrid) 90% are points based.
Price of draw $15 per draw, and tag auto pay if won, and you can't apply for tags or any licences again until the cost of the tag has been paid.
Just my 2cents

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by FortMac

$10-$15 per draw might work. Just needs to be enough to make someone think if they want it or not. $3 does nothing

10-15 isn't going to make any notable difference

[stc77]

Do they even post the draw summary results anymore? I cant seem to find anything newer than 2016.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by stc77

Do they even post the draw summary results anymore? I cant seem to find anything newer than 2016.

Alberta relm has them
Same place where you apply for draws

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by stc77

Do they even post the draw summary results anymore? I cant seem to find anything newer than 2016.

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Alberta relm has them
Same place where you apply for draws

Yup! Here's the link that Mark is referring to: https://www.albertarelm.com/cust.drawsummary21.page

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Some of us prefer to work and do what they love
Not sit on the coach, smoking a pack of darts a day wondering why life is so hard

You think that makes you special? I have way more respect for the young man looking after his family trying to make ends meet that likes to get out now and then.

[Dean2]

Has anyone looked at the total number of draw applicants for 2020 versus 2021. I am wondering if making a person buy the Wildlife Certificate had any material impact on the number of people who put in. I only looked at Antlered Moose and Antlerless Elk, Moose total entries was only down 1500, from 90,171 to 89,494. but 999 went up from 30,379 to 33,010. Elk, 51,249 versus 2020 53,834, 999 15,501 versus 15,056 in 2020.

Would appear that the purchase of the WC made no statistically relevant difference in number of entrants, at least for those two.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You think that makes you special? I have way more respect for the young man looking after his family trying to make ends meet that likes to get out now and then.

Agreed, i have worked hard my whole life in trades, made enough to live but was there for my wife and kids. I chose not to persue a ladder climbing career, rather made ends meet on a meager wage and spent time being a husband and father. I loved my career, and my employer...just because i dont make $$$ is no reason i shouldnt be able to hunt in my own province the same as a weathly individual.. ill never afford to travel to other places and hunt exotics, and im not begrudging anyone who can, but just because im not the type of person who is or was able to make huge$$ or i chose family over career should not mean that in my own back yard i cant have the same opportunities for hunting that a rich person does.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You think that makes you special? I have way more respect for the young man looking after his family trying to make ends meet that likes to get out now and then.

Huh?
Actually I don’t think I’m special at all

I’ve been there with the young family trying to make ends meet.
Hunting has always been important to me, if I wanted a new rifle or a new scope I saved for it and found the best deal possible. Your obviously missing what I’m trying to say. If you want to do it you will find a way. If you can’t afford to pay $15-25 bucks for a draw application maybe don’t order so many things from skip the dishes. And if you aren’t lazy and do things like that… then maybe pick up a shift or two a week delivering it. I did. A little extra cash money goes a long ways. It’s about choices 🤷*♂️

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Huh?
Actually I don’t think I’m special at all

I’ve been there with the young family trying to make ends meet.
Hunting has always been important to me, if I wanted a new rifle or a new scope I saved for it and found the best deal possible. Your obviously missing what I’m trying to say. If you want to do it you will find a way. If you can’t afford to pay $15-25 bucks for a draw application maybe don’t order so many things from skip the dishes. And if you aren’t lazy and do things like that… then maybe pick up a shift or two a week delivering it. I did. A little extra cash money goes a long ways. It’s about choices 🤷*♂️

It shows you’ve never had a family to look after (and I mean one with kids)

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

It shows you’ve never had a family to look after (and I mean one with kids)

Incorrect

If you want to know my life story shoot me a pm
I’m sure no one else on here really cares other than you

[75ft Arborist]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I pulled a random year
2011
If you check our turkeys There was 10000 applicants
2021 There was 23000 applicants

Bull moose was roughly a 50% increase

That's why I've never applied!
10000 applicants apply for 150 tags, if everyone gets drawn before me that a 66yr wait till I'm drawn.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Huh?
Actually I don’t think I’m special at all

I’ve been there with the young family trying to make ends meet.
Hunting has always been important to me, if I wanted a new rifle or a new scope I saved for it and found the best deal possible. Your obviously missing what I’m trying to say. If you want to do it you will find a way. If you can’t afford to pay $15-25 bucks for a draw application maybe don’t order so many things from skip the dishes. And if you aren’t lazy and do things like that… then maybe pick up a shift or two a week delivering it. I did. A little extra cash money goes a long ways. It’s about choices 🤷*♂️

Some people choose to invest their time and money into their families instead of hunting, spending time with their children instead of overtime, stuff like that. In my mind this is the correct allocation of a young man's monies and time. I have tremendous respect for those guys. I do not want to see them penalized and will fight for those type of scenarios, to give them every chance to hunt, their life choices are every bit as important and in my mind more important than someone that invests everything into hunting.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

Some people choose to invest their time and money into their families instead of hunting, spending time with their children instead of overtime, stuff like that. In my mind this is the correct allocation of a young man's monies and time. I have tremendous respect for those guys. I do not want to see them penalized and will fight for those type of scenarios, to give them every chance to hunt, their life choices are every bit as important and in my mind more important than someone that invests everything into hunting.

That’s everyone’s choice
Same as if they choose to buy a new truck with big payments, a fancy new house or a fancy new boat or a brand new side by side

If it’s not worth your money then it’s pretty easy to stick to general tags or maybe only putting in for the ones you want to do instead of applying for everything because its virtually free right now

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

That’s everyone’s choice
Same as if they choose to buy a new truck with big payments, a fancy new house or a fancy new boat or a brand new side by side

If it’s not worth your money then it’s pretty easy to stick to general tags or maybe only putting in for the ones you want to do instead of applying for everything because its virtually free right now

So your big plan is to squeeze out those that don't have funds so that you and your monied buds have a better shot. Nice, real nice. We need more of guys like you. You are a special one.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

So your big plan is to squeeze out those that don't have funds so that you and your monied buds have a better shot. Nice, real nice. We need more of guys like you. You are a special one.

Who said squeeze out

I’d like to see draws cost more than a night out at the movies
If you can’t afford that than you have far bigger problems

[MountainTi]

The self righteousness is strong around here lol

And you're right Mark. It should cost more than a 7-11 hot dog for a shot at a tag

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

The self righteousness is strong around here lol

And you're right Mark. It should cost more than a 7-11 hot dog for a shot at a tag

It sure is.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Who said squeeze out

I’d like to see draws cost more than a night out at the movies
If you can’t afford that than you have far bigger problems

No one said it.

I fully agree with your second statement!

[270person]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

The self righteousness is strong around here lol

And you're right Mark. It should cost more than a 7-11 hot dog for a shot at a tag

Price of the tag at minimum imo. If not successful all but $10 gets credited back. That can go towards any number of wildlife areas.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

instead of applying for everything because its virtually free right now

Told how to fix that problem. Only allowed 2 draws a year. Put the onus back you to decide which 2 tags are more import to draw then move onto to next 2 tags you’d like.

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Who said squeeze out

I’d like to see draws cost more than a night out at the movies
If you can’t afford that than you have far bigger problems

You are saying squeeze out. You absolutely are.

If you aren't squeezing out people than what is the point of upping the application cost? You want change to shorten wait times yet somehow everyone should be able to afford more expense. Just gotta get their life together eh lol...

OK...

[338Bluff]

Lot of guys over 60 will be dropping out of the queue by time a 12 year old is 21. Why dump the whole system on its ear? I've been patiently waiting to pull so e P10 plus tags. When I have that's it for me.

Same tired argument every year.

[338Bluff]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

The self righteousness is strong around here lol

And you're right Mark. It should cost more than a 7-11 hot dog for a shot at a tag

Maybe....but probably the right price for a twelve year old. Maybe not cost until they turn 18?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

Lot of guys over 60 will be dropping out of the queue by time a 12 year old is 21. Why dump the whole system on its ear? I've been patiently waiting to pull so e P10 plus tags. When I have that's it for me.

Same tired argument every year.

He wants to squeeze out the older retired guys, youth, and the younger gentleman that are going to university or college just so he can fill his own boots.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by 338Bluff

Maybe....but probably the right price for a twelve year old. Maybe not cost until they turn 18?

For sure. And for seniors as well

[FortMac]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

You are saying squeeze out. You absolutely are.

If you aren't squeezing out people than what is the point of upping the application cost? You want change to shorten wait times yet somehow everyone should be able to afford more expense. Just gotta get their life together eh lol...

OK...

Where is the Squeeze out? The $40 for an application for the year is a deal breaker but the 100's in Gas is no sweat?

How many guys in the Edmonton and further north area applying for Turkeys? That zone is 4 hours + from Edmonton, even if I had the Turkey in a cage ready for you to shoot, that's 8 hours Highway driving. There's a tank of Gas at one time. Majority of people don't live where they hunt, if they did 150 Moose tags for 532 wouldn't be gone on opening morning and the Chinchaga or Swan Hills wouldn't be like a Walmart. People are willing to spend all sorts of money to go Hunting, won't bat an eye, But increase the draw price and it's like your trying to get a date with the Farmers daughter.

[HappyHunter]

Originally Posted by 3blade

999 reduces the number of people drawing.

Ex: I have a p9 for antlered mule deer. Could have drawn on a 4, but I’m just keeping it in case my bow zone spot gets sold or goes dead. For the last 5 years someone else got to draw those tags. Force me to and I will, but that takes away your opportunity. Now yes one particular year I’m gonna jump into the lineup somewhere, but that’s 1 tag in what might turn out to be a decade.

Same with antlered moose. I had to put my vacation in ahead of the draws. So once the time off was secured, i drew with a p6 instead of the needed p4. Two years of extra tags going to someone who could make the time work

Why do you think that’s a bad deal?

with the current system everyone can build priority. If we use antlered mule deer for example there were 12k tags, 50k actual applicants and 84k total applicants. Eventually the 30k that watch from the side line will then jump in and could take all the tags. If you plan your vacation like you said, there are still 2.5k that are higher than you and you may still not get drawn.
To LC's comment, the priority system needs to stay as lottery draw doesnt make sense, no objection there. but if people apply for every tag knowing that they may draw a tag for every draw, there will be reduced numbers across the board.
if the draws would go to license fee 100% up front, I wouldn't be able to afford half of the 12 or so draws. Right now though if 999 went out, there are still ways of building priority. With a younger family I wouldn't want to burn a hunt because of time restraint.