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Old 03-21-2018, 10:18 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Default Caribou to costly to save

Guys did any of you read article in yesterday Edm Sun. Our wise F&W people just calculated cost to build 100 sq mile pens, close cutlines etc. Claim it will cost $1billion over 40 years. It would be much cheaper to offer us trapper a $1000 bounty per wolf, PROBLEM SOLVED.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:24 AM
slough shark slough shark is offline
 
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Don’t be talking logic and ways of saving money, frustrating as $1000 a wolf could mean removing 1000 wolves for a million dollars, leave it to the government to spend tens of millions on studies and more expensive unproven theories when it really is quite simple
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:48 AM
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This one? Justin and Climate Barbie deciding on what to do will not be good.

NDP suspends caribou conservation plan, calls on federal government for cash infusion

The NDP suspended portions of its caribou protection plan Monday and called on the federal government to step up on the file, citing a $1-billion price tag over the next four decades.

“Alberta’s approach … and fulfilling the requirements under federal law cannot and will not come at the expense of our economy,” said Environment and Parks Minister Shannon Phillips in a letter sent to Ottawa.

The province released its draft plan on Dec. 19 to help threatened woodland caribou populations recover in 15 different ranges. Hundreds of Albertans have since voiced concerns, Phillips said, referencing public meetings in communities including Cold Lake, Fort McMurray and High Level.

In the letter to federal Environment Minister Catherine McKenna, Phillips said the province needs a cash infusion “to restore habitat necessary to ensure population growth.”

Alberta so far has spent $9.2 million on caribou recovery, but restoration costs over the next 40 years are pegged at $1 billion, she stated. “Rearing facilities in our protection plan will cost in the neighbourhood of $75 million.”

Lisa Wardley, chairwoman of the Northwest Species at Risk Committee, said communities in northern Alberta feel ignored. She advocated for a detailed assessment to determine the effects of caribou range planning on local economies.

“My hamlet is within a caribou range,” Wardley said, speaking about her Zama City home about 600 km north of Grande Prairie. “There is no protected land in that range right now.”

She said communities currently have control over the land, but that would change under the proposed provincial plan.

“Predator management is a big thing, so in protected areas you can’t necessarily do that,” she said in an interview. “We have trappers that are actually creating that wildlife balance. Can they continue if it’s a protected area? We’re not sure.”

Wardley said she’s concerned the range planning would affect nearly 40 per cent of the province’s land mass and hinder forestry and energy industries. “In a nutshell, if it was in your backyard, wouldn’t you want a say?”

On Monday, the NDP kiboshed conservation plans pending the outcome of a socioeconomic plan, which means for now there will be no new parks created. But the province will still invest in other projects, such as industry-led efforts to maintain caribou populations.

Several United Conservative Party MLAs repeatedly asked about the issue during Monday’s question period.

Opposition leader Jason Kenney asked for Alberta Premier Rachel Notley to commit to examining the effects of caribou range planning on jobs.

“It goes without saying that is part of the socioeconomic assessment that the ministers have indicated to the federal government we want to see completed,” Notley responded.

http://edmontonsun.com/news/politics...0-f25c3d6b07a8
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:25 PM
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Our caribou are a relic ice-age species. They're taking longer to die off than mammoths, mastodons and ground sloths, but they're just as doomed. Even in totally protected areas like our mountain national parks, they've either disappeared (like in Banff National Park), or their numbers continue to drop (like in Jasper NP). We can spend billions and vent our rage about wolf killing or not wolf killing, extending their extirpation from Alberta if we wish, or just accept the inevitable.

There are many wildlife managers out there that would love to re-direct the resources spent on propping up caribou - into areas where they could really make a difference. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it's career suicide for them to speak up with those views.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:41 PM
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I think, to save the caribou, we'd have to re-locate some to parks and create more areas where they are protected. Really no different than the bison, they were doomed at one point. I don't believe the caribou will survive where they are, trying to restore the habitat and leaving them where they are would be too costly.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:58 PM
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Caribou don't need more parks, they need less wolves and gbears eating them. As the article stated, creating more parks will protect the predators also.

Look what happened on the island in the Great Lakes; no wolves, lots of caribou. Lots of wolves, no caribou. Open the Gbear season, give trappers the mandate or incentive to kill wolves (or poison the wolves) and the caribou numbers will recover. When there's video evidence of one g Bear killing 40 moose calves in a a single calving season, it's not hard to figure out what is happening to our ungulates. Every trapper who kills a pack of wolves can attest to the surge in ungulate numbers in that area, yet our biologists who study wildlife for a living still think we need more parks.

To give credit where it is due, Shannon Phillips has made some decisions based on reality instead of blindly following the advice given by provincial bios.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper;3756244[COLOR="Red"
]Our caribou are a relic ice-age species. They're taking longer to die off than mammoths, mastodons and ground sloths, but they're just as doomed. Even in totally protected areas like our mountain national parks, they've either disappeared (like in Banff National Park), or their numbers continue to drop (like in Jasper NP). We can spend billions and vent our rage about wolf killing or not wolf killing, extending their extirpation from Alberta if we wish, or just accept the inevitable.[/COLOR]

There are many wildlife managers out there that would love to re-direct the resources spent on propping up caribou - into areas where they could really make a difference. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it's career suicide for them to speak up with those views.
^^^This guy get's it. Quite a few years ago, a wise old biologist from BC said the same thing...in different words.
Caribou have been in decline for a good long time, long before there was industry in these parts. They are a species on their way out. Just the way it is.

Anybody remember the caribou patrol that drove up and down hwy 40 chasing them off the road between Grande Cache and Hinton? 2 vehicles if I remember right. A full time job.
Damn they're dumb
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:48 PM
parfleche parfleche is offline
 
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The stupidity and ignorance coming out of these laripoops mouth's is arm biting to say the least! Regarding what their plans are for the saving of the caribou, They should keep quiet as they are killing us with stress just reading their stupid plans!!
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slough shark View Post
Don’t be talking logic and ways of saving money, frustrating as $1000 a wolf could mean removing 1000 wolves for a million dollars, leave it to the government to spend tens of millions on studies and more expensive unproven theories when it really is quite simple
x2
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:02 PM
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I talked to guy from bc around Christmas and we argued about wolves . His argument was there is no proof wolves kill caribou. They only eat carion. WTF
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by expedition View Post
I talked to guy from bc around Christmas and we argued about wolves . His argument was there is no proof wolves kill caribou. They only eat carion. WTF
Farley Mowat tried to convince us that they only eat mice!
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:01 AM
-JR- -JR- is offline
 
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I know the area well where they are putting up the fence.
They built a small one a few years back maybe 200 x200 yards sq.
I think they had their hands full ,just with that .
They are not easy animals to feed.


One year hey gave out moose tags to anyone that wanted them to starve out the wolfs.....So what did the wolfs eat after the moose were shot out ,
I'll give you a guess it starts with the letter C.

Then they tried to kill all the wolves... they had helicopters going and brought in many bus loads of hunter to kill them.
The next year the wolfs just cam back in .

If a wolf wants in he will just dig a hole .


When A/O first started , I wrote ...A good wolf is a dead wolf.
I was jumped on by everyone on this site. Telling me stuff like we need wolfs to keep every thing in check.
Things have sure changed

Last edited by -JR-; 03-22-2018 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:10 AM
nube nube is offline
 
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Funny you mentioned the trying to starve the wolves to death method JR! They are trying that on my trapline. 800+ moose tags a year in my zone!
Caught 4 more wolves 2 days ago and guess what, those wolves are nothing but skin and bone and diseased like no other. Thing is it isn't killing them...... I have killed a pile of them this year again and sad to say I no piece of fur from any of them. They are all sick, mangy, lice infected and in poor health. It has nothing to do with the numbers of wolves in the area. There are not many left in most of my trapline now.
I'm done with wolves now till numbers go back up. It will be going back to Coyotes now. There was some money from the Gov't this year for trapping wolves but it was pennies and I am in the hole a great deal for wasting my time catching them especially this year because I left the coyotes alone. I figured I would give the new program a chance but it looks like it has been funded mostly by myself and the only good I have seen the last few years is my ungulate population has near trippled with the sign I have seen.
I have done my part!
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:14 AM
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Reeves1 Reeves1 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumper View Post
Farley Mowat tried to convince us that they only eat mice!

Not many on here old enough to remember that
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Old 03-22-2018, 10:49 AM
bushbug bushbug is offline
 
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if these people would quit trying to play god and leave mother nature alone they wouldn't have to look so stupid covering their asses for being so stupid before
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:06 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Bushbug, you are correct mother nature will kill off the wolves after all the caribou, moose, elk and deer are gone ( maybe a few cattle) then a long slow recovery will start again in 20-50 years.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bushbug View Post
if these people would quit trying to play god and leave mother nature alone they wouldn't have to look so stupid covering their asses for being so stupid before
Go for a trip in the Blackstone, Siffleur, or White Goat if you want to see how this works. Those areas have no Indians, no industry, few hunters, and no elk, moose or deer. We don't live in Disneyland where all of the creatures exist in harmony, and the wolves just eat the old and dying. In real life, the wolves eat the pregnant and young, and then eventually the wolves may starve to death. None of us will live long enough to see ungulates come back under the balance of nature regime. Smart predator management is the best thing for the hunters, ungulates, and wolves.
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by thumper View Post
Our caribou are a relic ice-age species. They're taking longer to die off than mammoths, mastodons and ground sloths, but they're just as doomed. Even in totally protected areas like our mountain national parks, they've either disappeared (like in Banff National Park), or their numbers continue to drop (like in Jasper NP). We can spend billions and vent our rage about wolf killing or not wolf killing, extending their extirpation from Alberta if we wish, or just accept the inevitable.

There are many wildlife managers out there that would love to re-direct the resources spent on propping up caribou - into areas where they could really make a difference. Unfortunately, in this PC world, it's career suicide for them to speak up with those views.
Haven't the anthropologists determined that early North American hunters hunted these species (mammoths and mastodons) into extinction?
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Old 03-22-2018, 11:21 AM
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Elk Island National Park east of Edmonton is a good example of bison recovery. Wolves are not an issue there, in fact the high number of deer and elk have become a problem. I'm surprised someone from the government hasn't suggested introducing wolves to the park.
Re-locating would be very costly but in my opinion it is the only way.
I was at the caribou recovery open house in Edmonton, asked many questions, got many answers, some made sense, others not so much. Regarding the moose hunter numbers it was suggested that if you remove the grocery store from a neighborhood people would move eventually , personally I think the wolf will just eat more caribou.
I left thinking wolves will always be on our landscape, caribou I'm not so sure.
Doug
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:21 PM
gman1978 gman1978 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dugh View Post
Elk Island National Park east of Edmonton is a good example of bison recovery. Wolves are not an issue there, in fact the high number of deer and elk have become a problem. I'm surprised someone from the government hasn't suggested introducing wolves to the park.
Re-locating would be very costly but in my opinion it is the only way.
I was at the caribou recovery open house in Edmonton, asked many questions, got many answers, some made sense, others not so much. Regarding the moose hunter numbers it was suggested that if you remove the grocery store from a neighborhood people would move eventually , personally I think the wolf will just eat more caribou.
I left thinking wolves will always be on our landscape, caribou I'm not so sure.
Doug
There are wolves in elk island park already but for the most part they probably leave the bison alone because there is easier chewing on other things.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:44 PM
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1 Billion over 40 years, lol. The Caribou with be wolf scat piles long before then. The ONLY way they could survive would be in long expanses of swamp with out us. It is far too late for that. They keep spending millions on experimental crap that no one will know if it worked until Our kids are Our age.

I know where there are some small pockets of migratory Caribou...biologist wants to know when and where...should have though of that before you made the trappers life hell. They will get nothing from me, ever.

Spruce
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:05 PM
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Elk Island park and Blackfoot have wolves......
I've caught one in a coyote bait just south of Cooking lake so they are not just in those parks and are expanding their area. They probably are doing just fine feeding themselves and last I heard there are 21 in the main pack that is known about.
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:47 PM
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May be instead of building this fence they should just relocate some Caribou to Elk island park.

If I under stand its the Oil Field and logging companies that are paying for the fence....am I wrong ?
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -JR- View Post
May be instead of building this fence they should just relocate some Caribou to Elk island park.

If I under stand its the Oil Field and logging companies that are paying for the fence....am I wrong ?
as I understand caribou need old growth spruce to survive . Elk island is mostly aspen I believe.

Last edited by expedition; 03-22-2018 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Spell check sucks
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:34 PM
TrapperMike TrapperMike is offline
 
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To really save the caribou we will have to get rid of the coyotes, bears, and yes the ravens (especially the ravens).
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:54 AM
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There are caribou who live year round within the boundaries of Jasper National Park. Nothing has changed there - no new roads, no new development or industry, no logging. Only new seasonal recreational access restrictions to portions of their winter/spring range, mainly designed to limit wolf access along trails and roads. Yet their numbers steadily decline.

The Banff National Park population recently ceased to exist - the last small herd wiped out in an avalanche.

I believe that you could shut down all the industry in Alberta's caribou habitat, close the towns, kick every last person out - and still the caribou would disappear. It might take a little longer, but they're a relic ice-age animal whose range ebbs and flows with climate, and the complicated web of factors involving predator & prey relationships.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:01 AM
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I agree thumper. Without human intervention the caribou are doomed.
A lot of the provincial governments conservation and recovery plans will hinder access by people on ATVs but won't stop a wolf pack. You can strategically lay rocks and logs on a trail and plant as many trees as you want and the predators will walk around or over them.
The original post was about the cost. The provinces are mandated by the feds to come up with a plan and implement it but the feds haven't mentioned funding yet.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:04 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
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Simple fact is " You can have wolves or you can have caribou, but not both" In the 60-80's we had almost no wolves but had lots of caribou, we even were allowed to hunt them.
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Old 03-23-2018, 08:27 PM
TrapperMike TrapperMike is offline
 
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From what I’ve witnessed and been told by different biologists ravens are more of the problem than we would believe.
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:49 PM
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Curious on the raven . Explain. Thanks
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