Grazing Lease access

[jessepaul]

Grazing Lease queston and where to go with it from here.

I've tried contacting a Grazing Lease holder numerous times in past two years and have yet to get a reply from him. I've left him voicemails, tried phoning a number of times and have received nothing in return. I've wanted permission to bow hunt with foot access only on this land, and just left it be with the "no response thing" and hunted else where. This spring I would like to gain access by foot and no other means to shed hunt.

Ultimately what can I do to keep this legal and still gain access without his verbal response? I've done my part by respecting the Grazing Lease rules, the least he can do is get back to me and give me a response or some certain wishes upon my access.

Thanks

[ghostguy6]

Email SRD so you have the reply in writing. Most likely they will refer you to the county lands office for final approval, at least they did when I tried to access a lease. Keep a copy of any response you get in case something goes sour.

[thumper]

Last year, in your area (west of Sundre) , I tried to reach 5 different leaseholders, using contact information from the government website. 2 phone numbers were no longer in service, 1 had a message about being out of business with no opportunity to leave a message, one I left 2 phone messages that were never returned, and one I spoke with 'the wife' who promised that her husband would phone me right back - and I never heard from him.
I contacted the area land manager, and found that with all 5 leases, the contact information on the website was no longer valid. 3 leases had changed hands, with 1, the leaseholder had passed away and her son was handling the lease and I one the leaseholder's phone number had changed.

So - you may not be getting response because the contact information is wrong. Call the area land manager, he'll get a response for you - it's part of his job responsibilities.

[TreeGuy]

Thumper, were you satisfied with the land manager? Did it result in access?

[jessepaul]

Thanks everyone! I do know that I'm getting the right number, my neighbor keeps in touch with him frequently and gave me his cell number to contact him. I know he lets a F/G Warden hunt this land and really doesn't want a sole on it. Therefore he's basically not replying back to messages on purpose.

I can understand some of your situations Thumper but this isn't cool. I've been polite and very to the point with all my messages. Guess I'll just need to make a few phone calls and see where it takes me.

Thanks again

[thumper]

Yes, the land manager gave me his direct approval to access 2 parcels and provided me with updated contact information for the other 3.

I'll PM the OP with the Land Manager's contact info.

[TreeGuy]

Glad to hear, Thumper. We hunted out that way a couple of years back and had no problems with the lease holder. Foot only until Nov. 1 and could quad the road in after. Other than being philosophically opposed to livestock in the forestry, I have no complaints.

[jessepaul]

Again I would like to thank everyone for their advice and info sharing! And thank you very much "thumper" for the PM! You made my day as I've been frustrated with this issue, didn't know what my next step would be.

Glad to see us outdoorsmen sticking together and helping one another out!

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by jessepaul

Again I would like to thank everyone for their advice and info sharing! And thank you very much "thumper" for the PM! You made my day as I've been frustrated with this issue, didn't know what my next step would be.

Glad to see us outdoorsmen sticking together and helping one another out!

I know a couple of Grazing Lease holders and they are overrun with requests to hunt there, the phone never stops ringing. Knock on the door and a personal introduction might get you further. People like to know who they're giving access to.

Grizz

[Sneeze]

Ring around the rosie.

Stop letting these guys assume the superior position in the negotiations.

Call them - leave a message stating the day you are going to access public land they have the lease on, your name, your information and how you plan on following the access conditions.

Tell him if he has a problem with you accessing the lease that he needs to phone you back within x days.

Lick a stamp and mail him a registered letter too. It will cost like eight bucks.

Keep a copy.

Go hunting.

It isn't private land. Respect is a two way street.

[igorot]

Last year I requested a contact information from the Land Manager office. I always get a prompt response, if he is around. This year he was on vacation and get directed to somebody else.

here was her original response:

"Sorry I can’t give out private phone numbers, but I do know that Stan is listed in the Medicine Hat phone book under ****Ranching. I have left a message with Brad to ask if he will allow me to pass on his number. Let you know if I hear back from him on"

This is coming from the office that wrote the condition of the lease.

Just shake my head in disgust. Those who are not familiar with the condition of lease. It states that contact information of the lease holder must be available to the public.

[Flatlandliver]

Just shake my head in disgust. Those who are not familiar with the condition of lease. It states that contact information of the lease holder must be available to the public.[/QUOTE]

Some contact info is very outdated. The contact for one lease I was trying to access had the name of a gentleman who has passed years ago. I had better luck contacting neighbouring ranches or leaseholders to get the right info. Bit of a pain but it worked.

[Smokinyotes]

You are required to notify the lease holder and they are required to provide"reasonable" access. I would just leave them a message letting them know that you are going on the lease land on foot and leave it at that.

[RavYak]

Go knock on his door...

He can only deny you access if he has livestock present on the land or beside it.

If he won't give you reasonable access the only other way is to contact SRD and get them to issue an access order.

[Mike_W]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Go knock on his door...

He can only deny you access if he has livestock present on the land or beside it.

If he won't give you reasonable access the only other way is to contact SRD and get them to issue an access order.

How do you suggest knocking on the door? many lease holders don't even live near their leases and other than lucking out and finding his name on a map there is no way to contact them other than by phone.

Reading most conditions they can limit access at points in the year under certain conditions but most request notice of 7-10 days .... Notice doesn't = permission.

[thumper]

I don't see leaseholder addresses on the government website, so I can't send registered letters - nor should I have to. I also live hours away from where I hunt, so knocking on doors is not an easy option - nor should I have to.
It's a pretty simple system, - all the gov't has to do is keep the website updated when any lease changes are made (which could/should be automatically done) with phone numbers and/or email addresses, and then ensure that leaseholders permit access to the public when their grazing operations are not impacted by public access.

There's no need for confrontations - that's what the government land managers are there for! The more of us that request their assistance when lease-holders don't respond to inquiries or attempt to block access, the more they'll educate the leaseholders as to what their lease obligations regarding public access are, and the less problems everyone will have.

If the government website isn't kept current, then the land managers will eventually get tired of fielding all the calls of hunters trying to contact the leaseholder, and maybe they'll get it updated more frequently!

If leaseholders are troubled by too many phone calls, then they have the option of not listing any contact information, and permitting public access without contact after a certain date (usually Nov 1st when their cattle should be off). Many do exactly that, including general 'conditions' that are approved by the land manager, on where to park, no camping/fires, motorized access etc.

[Okotokian]

Stop wasting your time guys. If a leaseholder does not want you on "his" land, you will not get on the land. He'll make excuses, the government guy will look down at his boots and mumble, the leaseholder will put a cow on the land and tell you to beat it.

[OpenRange]

The website sucks for information. I own lease land and a big parcel I bought still hasn't been updated, and that's 3 years ago. Nothing beats knocking on the guys door and asking. Ranchers are old school and they don't just like to give permission over the phone, they wanna see the whites of your eyes so to speak. I go goose shooting and have to drive about an hour each way to my spots, I spend a day up in the area getting permission from everyone I feel I need to ask. If I miss someone I usually ask the next time I'm up there. I personally believe, and this is just my opinion, that if your that lazy to just sit back and call and not put in the leg work, then are you going to be a lazy hunter? Usually in my experience that is a correct observation. On a different note, Igorot, I'm 99% sure I know the person you are referring to and that man had a terrible horseback accident that had him in the hospital for months. He wasn't around for like 3 months. He's an old guy who thinks some neighbours are Communists, if you wanted to hunt there then you definitely should have done the leg work. Cypress County has the land map online and his house is listed right on the map. No excuse for not knocking in my opinion.

[igorot]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

. On a different note, Igorot, I'm 99% sure I know the person you are referring to and that man had a terrible horseback accident that had him in the hospital for months. He wasn't around for like 3 months. He's an old guy who thinks some neighbours are Communists, if you wanted to hunt there then you definitely should have done the leg work. Cypress County has the land map online and his house is listed right on the map. No excuse for not knocking in my opinion.

I think you misinterpreted what I am ranting. I feel disgusted to the SRD person not the lease holder. Lease holder phone # must be included on the lease information and must be made public, but the SRD personnel told me otherwise. If the main governing department does not know this lease conditions what are your chances of getting help from them.

BTW was just expanding my area of hunting. Been hunting that neighboring area for 5 years now and no they don't need me to knock on their door. Phone call is enough for them.

[abwtfanatic]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

You are required to notify the lease holder and they are required to provide"reasonable" access. I would just leave them a message letting them know that you are going on the lease land on foot and leave it at that.

X2, I wouldn't over think this issue. Leave your phone number on the message and it's in his ball park to call you if he wants to talk about.

[Big Sky]

Originally Posted by Sneeze

Call them - leave a message stating the day you are going to access public land they have the lease on, your name, your information and how you plan on following the access conditions.

Tell him if he has a problem with you accessing the lease that he needs to phone you back within x days.

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

You are required to notify the lease holder and they are required to provide"reasonable" access. I would just leave them a message letting them know that you are going on the lease land on foot and leave it at that.

Has anybody done this? How did it work out?

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Stop wasting your time guys. If a leaseholder does not want you on "his" land, you will not get on the land. He'll make excuses, the government guy will look down at his boots and mumble, the leaseholder will put a cow on the land and tell you to beat it.

I used to think this as well, but in my experience, its been the other way around. As long as you follow any specific access conditions and leaseholder conditions, you will be able to access the leased land.

In recent years, I've only had one issue where an older gent lost his mind when he found my friend and I on "his land." I had called the appropriate numbers (there were 3) and left messages with dates etc. No calls back, so I called the area land manager, he tried as well. No luck, so we just showed up.

Long story short, we were confronted aggressively, but all was good when the land manager was called. Leaseholder couldn't believe it, but since we had followed all the correct procedures, there was nothing he could do.

We ended up leaving since my truck would have been a prime target for this guy, but have been back a few times since without issue. Contacting the land manager is the key.

https://maps.srd.alberta.ca/RecAcces...ewer=RecAccess

Use the above site for phone numbers, if they aren't up to date, too bad. If they don't return your call, or are unwilling to allow access, contact area land manager. If he/she is being difficult, go over his/her head. Do this well in advance of your hunt.

We've actually had really good success accessing leased land since we started using the website and map.

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

Has anybody done this? How did it work out?

I've called and left messages, but if I don't hear back I'll always call the land manager so at least its documented. Quite a few leases in our area don't even require notification from November through May, so that makes it really easy.

Just follow the conditions and you will be surprised how much access you can get. I sure was.

[Mb-MBR]

On another note, we have Albertans coming here buying out farmers and some of those homesteads come with a lot of hectares of crown land. The new homestead owner has tried to restrict access and I had to inform 7 of them laws are different here.

Here it is advisable to notify the land owner if you are going to access the crown land and he does not have the authority to restrict access. All 7 were quite disappointed of the differing laws.

[LKILR]

[QUOTE=Big Sky;2370842]Has anybody done this? How did it work out?[yes I have. He never got back to me so I hunted on the land. Never had any problems. Make sure you access the land on foot only

[Smokinyotes]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

Has anybody done this? How did it work out?

I tried calling some people 3 times last fall and they never returned my call. The fourth time I called I just left a message that I would be hunting on their lease land in November. They never did call me back..

[thumper]

Quote " The website sucks for information. I own lease land and a big parcel I bought still hasn't been updated, "

That's just it OpenRange - you don't "own lease land", WE, the public do. You didn't just 'buy a big parcel', you simply bought the lease rights to graze animals on it. The public still 'owns' it, and has right of access when your cows aren't on it.

It doesn't matter to me how 'old school' ranchers might prefer to be contacted. I'm not driving from Canmore to the Cypress Hills or Rocky Mtn House, or the Peace Country on the off chance that a rancher might be home, to start 'knocking on doors'. (Very often, the leaseholder's home is nowhere near the actual lease)

I'll simply follow the rules, and only ask that the leaseholder does the same.

[sjd]

Sounds like its time for another Alberta Outdoorsman Article and some investigative reporting.

The whole process is a scam and weighted in favour of the lease holder over the public.

The access issue is only the second-most outrageous part of the whole process- the other is the tens of thousands of dollars per year lease holders are pocketing from oil companies for fictional damages that are lost to the public.

Bob Scammell has written extensively about this

[OpenRange]

Where I'm from we have agricultural lease land, we get a certain # of AUM's for the lease acres and we can use it year round if we choose to. That means I can go in with 300 cows for a month or go in with 30 or so for a year. My lease acres are fenced in amongst my deeded acres as are most ranches in the south. Its tough for a hunter to tell the difference between deeded to lease when your standing in a field with no fences for sometimes miles in either direction. This is why ranchers words weigh heavy with SRD. I have guys come out a few weeks before seasons open to scout and seek permission. I had one from St. Albert and one from Crossfield. You come to my door and show respect you will receive respect. Trying to call and I miss the message and you go around me to SRD doesn't show respect. All it does it **** guys off and shuts more doors to hunters.

[AbAngler]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

Trying to call and I miss the message and you go around me to SRD doesn't show respect. All it does it **** guys off and shuts more doors to hunters.

Why is it the hunters fault that you missed the message? The hunter has done what he/she was supposed to, you didn't.

In my previous post, I mentioned an older man who so mad at me that he was shaking and almost foaming at the mouth, because he was told I was in the right. Why was he so mad? Because in his mind, he OWNS that lease. This is the mindset that leads to problems and needs to change.