Wapiabi elk

[----->shooter]

I need advice...maybe. Somebody tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here.
I'm planning to backpack deep(ish) into blackstone for elk. I know there won't be as many as southern and northern farmlands, but they should be there. The problem is in all my research I can't find any confirmation, It's all clouded by the larger herds to the south. The only Ray of hope is the minor harvests from previous years (single digits), luck maybe?
I'm going in for a scouting trip mid June, but if I'm guaranteed wasting my time, there are others places where my time could be of better use.
I'm actually looking forward to a hard couple days hike (call it mountain training) and I was hoping inaccessibility is the reason for the extremely low harvests.
Opinions anyone?

[Grizzly Adams]

Going there this morning. Let you know what we see. Last time was just Grizz tracks.

Grizz

[Big Grey Wolf]

We hunted elk in the Blackstone for years. It was a elk hunting mecca in old days hardly went a day without coming onto elk. Then wolves moved in along with logging companies with main Wirehouser road right through heart of the country. I have a map with over 250 elk marked on it from old days that I saw over the years. Now it is a disaster much like Ya ha Tinda.

[Rabbit Snarer]

One of the finest examples there are of a fantastic elk area which has been completely destroyed, and not by wolves either. The Opabin well was the beginning of the end.

[----->shooter]

Wolf, I figured that was the situation from what I had been reading, most of the info was over five years old though.
I won't lose all hope though, if there was elk there before development and wolf population explosions, they will be there again.
Development turns into maintenance, and with not enough to eat wolves move on or die out. I'm no expert but I refuse to believe "the end is nigh!", gotta stay positive😁. I'll check it out.
Alternatively, there are lots of other, hard to reach backcountry locations around there also. Any suggestions? You say ya-ha-tinda's no good either?

[----->shooter]

Grizz, please do share when you get back. Post here or pm me, Ill be watching.
Thanks.

[fatboyz]

Hey shooter.
There actually has never been logging in the wapiabi or Blackstone west of the gaps. It's foot or horse access only since 1986. Elk numbers are way down in the last 10 years just like Job, South ram and Panther. Gorgeous country but don't get your hopes up on an elk.out camping right now but shoot me a PM and I'll give you some first hand info. I have spent a lot of time in the Wapiabi and Blackstone over the last 25 years.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by ----->shooter

Grizz, please do share when you get back. Post here or pm me, Ill be watching.
Thanks.

More Grizz tracks. It's a major travel corridor, so no surprise. Not much sign of anything else, we only went as far as the Cave, but that trail links up with a bunch of others, none quad accessible, including the Bighorn trail that starts by Crescent falls. A Little scouting might be in order. Nice horse country.

Grizz

[peakseeker]

i've been going there for almost 35 years every year and yep the elk are their but like everyone else said, it's not what it once was. Beautiful place though. Grizz sign has increased alot in the last 15 years. cats as well. Just in my own experience.

[Nordegg2]

The elk population is way down. I spent 150 days in the blackstone and the wapiabi last year and I saw 3 elk. I also only saw tracks a couple of times. A couple years ago there was aprox 15-20 head but right now I would say there is as few as 6-7. Way to many predators for them to recover. Very sad as there should be 1000 elk in there. Just another sign of bad game management.

[antlercarver]

My opinion- is it good idea to be backpacking deep into a remote area to kill a 500 lb. animal, maybe with a quad or horse, but not on foot.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by Nordegg2

The elk population is way down. I spent 150 days in the blackstone and the wapiabi last year and I saw 3 elk. I also only saw tracks a couple of times. A couple years ago there was aprox 15-20 head but right now I would say there is as few as 6-7. Way to many predators for them to recover. Very sad as there should be 1000 elk in there. Just another sign of bad game management.

Curious what you refer to as "bad game management" in this area. What was done wrong that caused the disappearance of elk and moose?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Rabbit Snarer

Curious what you refer to as "bad game management" in this area. What was done wrong that caused the disappearance of elk and moose?

Clearwater Area Elk - WMU 328, 416, 417, 418, 420, 422, 426, 428, 429, 430, 432, 434


Elk provide a significant hunting opportunity, both for recreational and subsistence hunting. In addition, elk are an important source of food for predators, especially wolves. In the Clearwater Area, long‐ term trend surveys, hunter success and general public perception suggest that elk are currently experiencing a new phase of decline.



Ya Ha Tinda Ranch: 408
Upper Clearwater River: 142
South Ram River: 76
Ranger Creek: 33
Elk Creek: 1
Rough Creek: 1
North Saskatchewan River: 25
Nordegg: 14
Kootenay Plains: 90
Blackstone River: 10
Brazeau River: 0

Total Count: 800

Survey type conducted: Winter Range Trend Survey

Date of survey: January 23rd to 24th, 2008



12 WMUs containing vast areas of elk habitat and only 800 elk. It wasn't long ago that just one of these WMUs which is completely roadless contained over 4000 elk. Extensive research concluded that wolf predation was the overwhelming dominant factor in the elk population decrease.


Most of these areas are under draw licensing and no antlerless harvest. Licenced hunting is not responsible for any downward pressure on recruitment.


The "bad management" is perspective. Unlike some, many of us believe that it is good management to reduce predator populations in order to maintain higher population levels of ungulates so that we can enjoy them both visually and nutritionally. "What was done wrong" is the allowing of high wolf populations to become established.

The Alberta government enacted wolf population control measures in the 1900's, 1930's, 1950's and the 1980's. It is well past time to do it again.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Clearwater Area Elk - WMU 328, 416, 417, 418, 420, 422, 426, 428, 429, 430, 432, 434


Elk provide a significant hunting opportunity, both for recreational and subsistence hunting. In addition, elk are an important source of food for predators, especially wolves. In the Clearwater Area, long‐ term trend surveys, hunter success and general public perception suggest that elk are currently experiencing a new phase of decline.



Ya Ha Tinda Ranch: 408
Upper Clearwater River: 142
South Ram River: 76
Ranger Creek: 33
Elk Creek: 1
Rough Creek: 1
North Saskatchewan River: 25
Nordegg: 14
Kootenay Plains: 90
Blackstone River: 10
Brazeau River: 0

Total Count: 800

Survey type conducted: Winter Range Trend Survey

Date of survey: January 23rd to 24th, 2008



12 WMUs containing vast areas of elk habitat and only 800 elk. It wasn't long ago that just one of these WMUs which is completely roadless contained over 4000 elk. Extensive research concluded that wolf predation was the overwhelming dominant factor in the elk population decrease.


Most of these areas are under draw licensing and no antlerless harvest. Licenced hunting is not responsible for any downward pressure on recruitment.


The "bad management" is perspective. Unlike some, many of us believe that it is good management to reduce predator populations in order to maintain higher population levels of ungulates so that we can enjoy them both visually and nutritionally. "What was done wrong" is the allowing of high wolf populations to become established.

The Alberta government enacted wolf population control measures in the 1900's, 1930's, 1950's and the 1980's. It is well past time to do it again.

Thank you for all the facts and figures. It seems like the bad management you are referring to was an increase in wolf numbers and extensive research confirmed it. I have been unable to find any research which confirms this and would appreciate it if you could tell me the papers that do.

Also, I don't believe there is a single thing the government could have done to reduce wolf numbers or even stabilize them. Alberta is surrounded by wolves which would replace those killed immediately and a massive province wide toxicant program would be the only way of lowering numbers. Such a program would not be acceptable to the public or economically viable. Sorry. I am most interested in the research which concludes wolves are responsible for the decline in elk.

[FCLightning]

It looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck - but we need to research and study this thing to find out if it is indeed a duck.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

It looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck - but we need to research and study this thing to find out if it is indeed a duck.

Ya I guess its always good to keep studying until there is nothing left so it looks like you're doing something.Then it doesnt require any doing.Alberta management at its finest.

[Young Eldon]

Nate Web did a very good study of the wolves west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House 10 years ago. He was working on his Doctorate Degree at U of A. They were eating a lot of elk - should soon be running out of ungulates.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by Young Eldon

Nate Web did a very good study of the wolves west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House 10 years ago. He was working on his Doctorate Degree at U of A. They were eating a lot of elk - should soon be running out of ungulates.

Put some facts out, not insinuations and a glib conclusion. Webb's study mentions nothing about elk declining because of wolves. Could it have anything to do with some biologist turning hunters loose on cows and calves because they were in three farmers bales? It's still going on today except there are no elk to shoot, just female tags issued into Dec. The elk in this WMU are gone because of this. or how about this same biologists "spike season" in the 400 units which was going to provide more trophy animals. I encourage everyone to read Webb and the several papers on Ya Ha Tinda elk and see for yourself. An officer told me it wasn't wolves, it was mostly people knocking the ungulates down and cited one road with over 100 illegal kills on it in one fall and winter. Illegal, not native.

Wolves eat elk for sure, but blaming them as the primary cause for decreasing elk numbers is pure BS.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by Young Eldon

Nate Web did a very good study of the wolves west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House 10 years ago. He was working on his Doctorate Degree at U of A. They were eating a lot of elk - should soon be running out of ungulates.

Put some facts out, not insinuations and a glib conclusion. Webb's study mentions nothing about elk declining because of wolves. Could it have anything to do with some biologist turning hunters loose on cows and calves because they were in three farmers bales? It's still going on today except there are no elk to shoot, just female tags issued into Dec. The elk in this WMU are gone because of this. Or how about this same biologists "spike season" in the 400 units which was going to provide more trophy animals, remember that disaster. I encourage everyone to read Webb and the several papers on Ya Ha Tinda elk and see for yourself. An officer told me it wasn't wolves, it was mostly people knocking the ungulates down and cited one road with over 100 illegal kills on it in one fall and winter. Illegal, not native.

Wolves eat elk, but blaming them as the primary cause for decreasing elk numbers is pure BS.

[----->shooter]

Don't think I've read one post on any thread by this guy that hasn't been argumentative and snide or belligerent.
Moderators: when is enough, enough?
Just saying.
This conversation Got derailed and will go nowhere now.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by ----->shooter

Don't think I've read one post on any thread by this guy that hasn't been argumentative and snide or belligerent.
Moderators: when is enough, enough?
Just saying.
This conversation Got derailed and will go nowhere now.

I'm not the slightest bit snide or belligerent nor did i derail the thread, agreement is there that the elk are basically gone in your dream area and the conversation turned to "why". I would like to know as well, but would prefer facts, that's all I'm asking. I was hunting sheep and some elk there in the sixties so sorry if I don't buy into BS.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Rabbit Snarer

I'm not the slightest bit snide or belligerent nor did i derail the thread, agreement is there that the elk are basically gone in your dream area and the conversation turned to "why". I would like to know as well, but would prefer facts, that's all I'm asking. I was hunting sheep and some elk there in the sixties so sorry if I don't buy into BS.

\
.... then do your own research.....????????

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by hal53

\
.... then do your own research.....????????

I have, exhaustive, and the best by far for the area in question is Gunson and Schmidt many years a go. Unfortunately it was not allowed to finish or we may have had some answers although industrial activity was nothing compared to today. For all those who blame wolves that's the way this study was pointed. I don't think the answers are there for elk any more than they are for grizzly.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Rabbit Snarer

I have, exhaustive, and the best by far for the area in question is Gunson and Schmidt many years a go. Unfortunately it was not allowed to finish or we may have had some answers although industrial activity was nothing compared to today. For all those who blame wolves that's the way this study was pointed. I don't think the answers are there for elk any more than they are for grizzly.

So you are basing your conclusions on an unfinished study???... that's the best you can find?... or you haven't found a study yet that agrees with your anti-hunting stance????

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Rabbit Snarer

Thank you for all the facts and figures. It seems like the bad management you are referring to was an increase in wolf numbers and extensive research confirmed it. I have been unable to find any research which confirms this and would appreciate it if you could tell me the papers that do.

Also, I don't believe there is a single thing the government could have done to reduce wolf numbers or even stabilize them. Alberta is surrounded by wolves which would replace those killed immediately and a massive province wide toxicant program would be the only way of lowering numbers. Such a program would not be acceptable to the public or economically viable. Sorry. I am most interested in the research which concludes wolves are responsible for the decline in elk.

Your welcome. I also appreciate facts along with sound reasoning, unlike what you have offered. Read Hebblewhite's research in the demise of the Yaha migratory elk and the 90% reduction of moose and non-migratory elk populations.

The government along with citizen efforts significantly reduced wolf populations in four campaigns last century. Notice the cycle? It was time to have another wolf reduction ten years ago. Your claimed societal opposition to wolf control techniques is a matter of marketing. That can be dealt with. It's not too late to save the elk and moose from being extirpated from vast areas of Alberta, we can still effectively kill 90% of the wolves in short order once the orders are given.

Regardless, it won't be long now before disease issues will force the government's hand to get the wolf population back in check. Like it or not, high wolf populations are a fleeting dream for people that share your anti-hunting philosophy.

[purgatory.sv]

I am just a troll.

What I can contribute in this section is only personal observation.

Your post give information.

Thank you.

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by Young Eldon

Nate Web did a very good study of the wolves west of Sundre and Rocky Mountain House 10 years ago. He was working on his Doctorate Degree at U of A. They were eating a lot of elk - should soon be running out of ungulates.

Originally Posted by Rabbit Snarer

Put some facts out, not insinuations and a glib conclusion. Webb's study mentions nothing about elk declining because of wolves. Could it have anything to do with some biologist turning hunters loose on cows and calves because they were in three farmers bales? It's still going on today except there are no elk to shoot, just female tags issued into Dec. The elk in this WMU are gone because of this. or how about this same biologists "spike season" in the 400 units which was going to provide more trophy animals. I encourage everyone to read Webb and the several papers on Ya Ha Tinda elk and see for yourself. An officer told me it wasn't wolves, it was mostly people knocking the ungulates down and cited one road with over 100 illegal kills on it in one fall and winter. Illegal, not native.

Wolves eat elk for sure, but blaming them as the primary cause for decreasing elk numbers is pure BS.

I have meet Young Eldon I value his input.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Tell the rabbit to get off his butt and walk the foothills like the rest of us have been doing for the last 50 years both hunting and trapping. When you see more wolf tracks than elk or moose tracks very obvious who killed the elk.

[Rabbit Snarer]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Your welcome. I also appreciate facts along with sound reasoning, unlike what you have offered. Read Hebblewhite's research in the demise of the Yaha migratory elk and the 90% reduction of moose and non-migratory elk populations.

The government along with citizen efforts significantly reduced wolf populations in four campaigns last century. Notice the cycle? It was time to have another wolf reduction ten years ago. Your claimed societal opposition to wolf control techniques is a matter of marketing. That can be dealt with. It's not too late to save the elk and moose from being extirpated from vast areas of Alberta, we can still effectively kill 90% of the wolves in short order once the orders are given.

Regardless, it won't be long now before disease issues will force the government's hand to get the wolf population back in check. Like it or not, high wolf populations are a fleeting dream for people that share your anti-hunting philosophy.

Have read his and others research and according to them wolves are not the main factor in the Ya Ha Tindas resident elk decline or the migration herd from over 2000 down to about 300. They don't know.

I refuse to discuss the issue of reducing wolf populations with someone who believes he can get public support to kill 90% of Alberta's wolves one year and then follow up year after year indefinitely - that's delusional.

I do agree that decease, likely distemper will reduce them at some point unless prey populations fail slowly but that's a long ways away.

It's sad when someone who only wants the truth is branded an anti hunter, but does allow many to keep their head buried in the sand.

[fatboyz]

For the rabbit snarer for the area the OP is talking about, west of the rocks, there hasn't been any industrial activity of any kind (except trapping) in either the Blackstone or Wapiabi since prior to 1980. There has been no motorized use since 1986. Other than grown in meadows and slopes it's as it was more than 35 years ago. There are still some dandy moose taken in there, especially by outfitter the late Clayton Grosso.