Caliber selection

[Traps]

Ever come across someone saying "good for anything in North America except the big bears" when someone talks about what cartridge to choose. Do you really need a magnum or a big cartridge to dispatch a grizzley or is it the biggest farce going? Me thinks its a farce, give it a minimum of 140 grains and a velocity window of 2500-3000 fps and your good. What do you think?

[lannie]

I agree with you Traps, there not made of fur lined steel.

[leo]

I know of 2 seperate occaisons of grizzly bears shot with a 22 rimfire, they wouldn't be my first choice, but they managed to defend their lives with it.

[gitrdun]

On the other hand, I've had two face to face encounters with grizzlys.nothing bad came out of it. Three years ago in the Yukon with a sow, I had my .375H&H, and that same year in WMU406 with what looked to be a set of twins, then I had my .444 marlin. As I said, nothing transpired out of neither, but in spite of the uneasiness that came over me, I was just a tad more comfortable with more serious firepower.

[3Dshooter]

In most hunting situations, a deer rifle with a good bullet will get the job done. Though in a hunting situation, I'm not gunna pack my .25 cal when I own a .338. And when things go wrong and/ or in tight quarters where things happen fast (and I've been there) then I want something that will handle 300- 500 grains at 2100- 2500 fps.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

I was just a tad more comfortable with more serious firepower.

And that argument is entirely between your ears.

[Whiskey Wish]

First of all I do not deliberately hunt bears so none of this is first hand knowledge.
Secondly all I have is anecdotal third party evidence so I would be interested in hearing from guys that hunt big bears on a regular basis.
A friend of mine who guided for years told me when they were shooting a grizzly ( NOTE - NOT SELF DEFENCE) he always told his hunters to shoot them in the front shoulder to "break them down" so they were unable to mount a charge. The large magnum calibers could break the front shoulder and penetrate into the vitals whereas a conventional caliber such as a 30-06 or .270 would not have enough punch to accomplish the task. A second shot into the vitals would then finish the job .
Now I readily admit this is all theoretical coming from me as a source but I would be interested in hearing from the grizz hunters who shoot them on a regular basis.

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

The large magnum calibers could break the front shoulder and penetrate into the vitals whereas a conventional caliber such as a 30-06 or .270 would not have enough punch to accomplish the task.

What a load of crap.

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by Traps

Ever come across someone saying "good for anything in North America except the big bears" when someone talks about what cartridge to choose. Do you really need a magnum or a big cartridge to dispatch a grizzley or is it the biggest farce going? Me thinks its a farce, give it a minimum of 140 grains and a velocity window of 2500-3000 fps and your good. What do you think?

You don't need a magnum, but I would never want to shoot at a Grizzly with a 140g intentionally, never mind one going 2500fps. I would say an 06 with 180g partitions would be the reasonable starting point, going up to whatever an individual can shoot accurately.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

The large magnum calibers could break the front shoulder and penetrate into the vitals whereas a conventional caliber such as a 30-06 or .270 would not have enough punch to accomplish the task.

Well whome ever you got your third hand info from sure hasnt seen much.
SG

[Whiskey Wish]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well whome ever you got your third hand info from sure hasnt seen much.
SG

Without getting into how much he has seen how is his info incorrect? I was open and honest at the start of my post and said I do not know first hand and asked anyone with experience to clarify. Telling me he hasn't seen much doesn't clarify anything.

Regards,
Dave.



#8 30 Minutes Ago
chuck Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 2,679



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish
The large magnum calibers could break the front shoulder and penetrate into the vitals whereas a conventional caliber such as a 30-06 or .270 would not have enough punch to accomplish the task.

What a load of crap.

In what way ? Care to follow up your stinging rebuttal with some actual information or is that sentence the limit of your knowledge on the topic? As I stated in my post I do not have first hand knowledge and was asking for someone who hunts bears regularly to give me, and everyone else who reads these postings, the benefit of your experience.
Regards,
Dave.

[sheepguide]

Ive personaly seen shoulder bones broken on griz by .270's and .280's. Ive also seen the same calibers brake heavy shoulder bones in some of the largest bodied moose in North America some moose ending up with 2 broken shoulders. They pack more than enough to kill big bears.
I personaly wouldnt have a hunter shoot for a shoulder bone on a bear but each to his own.
Most are more comfortable using large calibers for the simple reason is they do pack more energy and gives you a little more margin for error. But to say the other calibers are to small should have been mentioned to all the bears and large game that has been shot with the smaller calibers.
Shoot what you shoot well and place the shot where it needs.
Many bear outfitters have min. calibers for their hunts which agian is just there personal preference. And is largley due to that margin of error.
SG

[PoppaW]

If your in the bush holding a 243 and have a bear incident then you will use it. You might wish it was a 338 but you will use the 243. I'm thinking more than once. I would prefer a bigger gun. 338 up to 577 would be nice. I have put down black bears with a 270 and it worked great. I also saw a charging black take two 180's from a 30'06 and not even flinch. It did turn and run away and we never found it. A hunted bear is different from an aggressive charge. If hunting a grass eating bear then a double lung may work well. A charging bear will need a CNS shot to stop it.
I vote 375 H&H.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Most are more comfortable using large calibers for the simple reason is they do pack more energy and gives you a little more margin for error.

That seems to be it in a nutshell.

Can smaller calibers kill large bears? Of course. We all know it's been done. The shot has to be accurate though. But it's the margin of error issue. Despite best intentions and preparation our shots aren't always perfect. They CERTAINLY aren't perfect in crap-your-pants self-defence situations. If I'm purposely out trying to come into contact with grizzlies I'd like to be holding something that doesn't necessarily demand that I not make a mistake of any size.

[6tmile]

I am not an expert but have been around a few bear kills, blacks and grizz, I shot my first grizz this fall in the yukon even though it was with a 300 win mag, i feel that any 30 cal would be plenty in a hunting situation, charging could be a diffrent story as both the toothy critter and the shooter are not in a regular frame of mind. After skinning my grizz I was amazed at the skeletal functions and builds of this animal, upon further disection of the carcass I learned that grizzlies have no ball or socket joint in there front shoulders, the shoulder blades are connected by muscle and tendons tha t are all connected the the muscles that run over top of the shoulders giving them a large hump that everyone sees.

[LongBomber]

Originally Posted by PoppaW

A hunted bear is different from an aggressive charge. If hunting a grass eating bear then a double lung may work well. A charging bear will need a CNS shot to stop it.
I vote 375 H&H.

That is exactly where the difference lies. Yes you can hunt a grizzly with a small rifle. With the proper bullet placement, and waiting for good shot presentation the bear will be just as dead with a 270 as a 375. But dealing with an amped up bear is another thing.

To the OP's original question, the reason that guys mention everything up to a grizz is that a 270/30-06/300wmag etc is pretty much ideal for everything from whitetail to moose. They don't bite back, and a big griz is tough and can bite back, they have a presence when they appear at 20 yards.

Is a 270 ideal for griz? No, but it will work. I would not buy a rifle for a one time hunt like griz, but if I already owned a larger caliber rifle I would use it.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

In what way ? Care to follow up your stinging rebuttal with some actual information or is that sentence the limit of your knowledge on the topic? As I stated in my post I do not have first hand knowledge and was asking for someone who hunts bears regularly to give me, and everyone else who reads these postings, the benefit of your experience.
Regards,
Dave.

I've killed a dozen bears and been present for more the demise of more than double that. A 270 or 30-06 with a good bullet will break the shoulder of any bear that walks. I have a great uncle (deceased) that killed many Grizzlies with a Pre-64 270 WCF. In fact, of the guys I know who have killed the most Grizzlies, none of them used a "big magnum".

Here is a picture of Phil Shoemaker with an Alaskan Brown Bear that he killed in a full charge with the 30-06 pictured shooting 220 grain partitions. He chose that rifle as a backup on purpose and in a recent article in "Successful Hunter" compares it with a similar stopped charge using a 505 Gibbs.

[sheepguide]

One of the biggest if not the biggest grizz killed in Alberta was by the late George Bugbee on Limestone Creek and was shot head on with a pre 64 30-06.
SG

[Pathfinder76]

Experience has a way of making things crystal clear and the "magnum" mindset is one of easiest to poke holes in. Regardless of the quarry.

[Magbuck]

Originally Posted by Traps

Ever come across someone saying "good for anything in North America except the big bears" when someone talks about what cartridge to choose. Do you really need a magnum or a big cartridge to dispatch a grizzley or is it the biggest farce going? Me thinks its a farce, give it a minimum of 140 grains and a velocity window of 2500-3000 fps and your good. What do you think?

Bigger is better what I mean by that it is not necessary faster with big bullets I mean BIG bullets going slow. When I think of bear I would prefer a 180-220 grain bullet and with the velocity of 2500-3000 FPS you have something deadly. The bad thing about it is that if you are shooting deer on the prairies might not be the best thing to have but if you are shooting in the northern regions of alberta I think it would be perfect for deer to bear. That is why I would choose a 338-06.

[KegRiver]

There is a mounted Grizz in the Alberta Museum in Edmonton.
The plaque stats that it is the largest Grizzly ever killed in Alberta.
The plaque tells a story of a native woman killing this bear with a single shot 22 while out checking traps. Seem the Grizz charged her and she shot it with the only gun she had, a single shot 22.

I have never shot at a Grizz much less killed one. But I have shot upwards of a hundred Blacks. Most of those were shot with a Thuty Thuty. A few of them came very close to the size of a Grizz. So I would have to say, if you can hit the right spot, you can kill them with almost any caliber.
I suppose if one has a habit of poor shot placement, a 375 H&H or a 416 Rigby may be in order. For those who shoot well. IMO any caliber one is comfortable with, and is of legal size, would be a good choice.

[3Dshooter]

My grandfather grew up on a farm here in BC with a large family. Any bear that was seen on or near the farm was in desperate trouble. Once the bears had recovered from hibernation, they were sought after, trapped and hunted for meat, lard and grease. Black bears were the prey most of the time, but an occasional grizzly hit the ground too.

With one of his older brothers, my grandfather headed up the mountain on a grouse hunt. Blues were plentiful and the two hunters were looking to fill their pack boards. They surprised a grizzly late in the day... and at around 20 feet away, my grandfather decided to things were getting too close. A single shot dropped the bear and a quick insurance shot to the head followed... the gun of choice? single shot break action .410 shotgun loaded with a slug! It wasn't uncommon for them to hunt deer and black bear at close quarters with this combination,... but they didn't know any different, that's how things were done... Better them than me!!

[justinO]

I have never Killed a Bear I have never seen a grizzly up close. But one thing is a Fact they are Huge and from articles I have read can do serious damage after they have been shot even with perfect shot placement. Their adrenaline is something incredible when they are charging.
As for guns All this my great great grandfather killed a grizz with a 22 ok what is the debate here?? Yes you can kill anything with a 22 are you gonna go to africa with a 22 to kill an cape Buffalo or lion??? Bigger is always better physics don't lie. More energy is more energy Period. If you cannot shoot the bigger guns accurately then yes go with what you can shoot but dont say a 270 is better than a 338 for killing anything it's just physics. If you have 2 exact cars one with 800hp and one 500hp witch one will go faster??
All I know is if a Grizz was charging me I want the biggest gun I could get my hands on

[blackpheasant]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

There is a mounted Grizz in the Alberta Museum in Edmonton.
The plaque stats that it is the largest Grizzly ever killed in Alberta.
The plaque tells a story of a native woman killing this bear with a single shot 22 while out checking traps. Seem the Grizz charged her and she shot it with the only gun she had, a single shot 22.

I have never shot at a Grizz much less killed one. But I have shot upwards of a hundred Blacks. Most of those were shot with a Thuty Thuty. A few of them came very close to the size of a Grizz. So I would have to say, if you can hit the right spot, you can kill them with almost any caliber.
I suppose if one has a habit of poor shot placement, a 375 H&H or a 416 Rigby may be in order. For those who shoot well. IMO any caliber one is comfortable with, and is of legal size, would be a good choice.

I think this is the bear you speak of....Bella Twin's bear, it would appear she still has a pretty firm grip on that 22 lol

[justinO]

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

I think this is the bear you speak of....Bella Twin's bear, it would appear she still has a pretty firm grip on that 22 lol

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHAHAH Great point

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by blackpheasant

I think this is the bear you speak of....Bella Twin's bear, it would appear she still has a pretty firm grip on that 22 lol

LOL No kidding !!! She looks rather nervous too. You think maybe shes still vibrating after all these years?!!

I should laugh. I would die of fright if that happened to me!

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

LOL No kidding !!! She looks rather nervous too. You think maybe shes still vibrating after all these years?!!

I should laugh. I would die of fright if that happened to me!

IIRC there was more than one round put into that bear's head , as well!
Cat

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

IIRC there was more than one round put into that bear's head , as well!
Cat

Sush! LOL Okay so there was a whole bunch of shots fired. I believe the plaque mentioned 13 or 14. I wasn't going to mention that.
Me bad?

Never-the-less, it does illustrate that a howitzer is not necessary for killing a bear. A poor shot with one of those wheal-less canons that some folks carry these days, can get you in a whole heap of trouble too.

The point I'm trying to make is;

Learn to shoot with the gun you carry and caliber won't be that big of an issue.

For those who can handle a 416 or a 375, by all means use it. But don't try to tell the rest of us that those are the only options.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Sush! LOL Okay so there was a whole bunch of shots fired. I believe the plaque mentioned 13 or 14. I wasn't going to mention that.
Me bad?

Never-the-less, it does illustrate that a howitzer is not necessary for killing a bear. A poor shot with one of those wheal-less canons that some folks carry these days, can get you in a whole heap of trouble too.

The point I'm trying to make is;

Learn to shoot with the gun you carry and caliber won't be that big of an issue.

For those who can handle a 416 or a 375, by all means use it. But don't try to tell the rest of us that those are the only options.

x-zachary...
all the energy in the world does no good when hit somewhere non-vital or disabling. You can use a cannon and take the front leg off a grizzly, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stop him from chewing you up.
A 22 bullet in the eyeball will drop him in his tracks...

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

x-zachary...
all the energy in the world does no good when hit somewhere non-vital or disabling. You can use a cannon and take the front leg off a grizzly, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't stop him from chewing you up.
A 22 bullet in the eyeball will drop him in his tracks...

ok this argument is getting crazy. We have said already yes a pellet gun shot in the eye ball will kill a bear fine. But If your accuracy is the same in a 22 or a 50 cal what would you rather shoot the bear with to kill him faster?