Caliber selection

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by justinO

ok this argument is getting crazy. We have said already yes a pellet gun shot in the eye ball will kill a bear fine. But If your accuracy is the same in a 22 or a 50 cal what would you rather shoot the bear with to kill him faster?

IN a life or death attack by a bear I really don't think it matters what gun your using.
A 243 or a 444 will do the same thing.
A kill shot is a kill shot. Anything short of that and your dead meat...

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by justinO

ok this argument is getting crazy. We have said already yes a pellet gun shot in the eye ball will kill a bear fine. But If your accuracy is the same in a 22 or a 50 cal what would you rather shoot the bear with to kill him faster?

If your accuracy is the same, okay I would agree. But in my experience, that is true for very very few people.

Has it ever occurred to you big bore fans that not everyone can tolerate the kick of those canons?

For the record. I am one of those people who can't tolerate the kick of the larger rifles. And I'm not afraid to admit it.

[catnthehat]

I LOVE big bore rifles - when someone else is shooting the danged things!!
I can't tolerate anything bigger than a 6.5X55 these days - but then again, I don't have to!
Cat

[justinO]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

If your accuracy is the same, okay I would agree. But in my experience, that is true for very very few people.

Has it ever occurred to you big bore fans that not everyone can tolerate the kick of those canons?

For the record. I am one of those people who can't tolerate the kick of the larger rifles. And I'm not afraid to admit it.

If you go back and read my posts on this forum I specifically said that If the recoil effects you that's a totally different story. Accuracy is always the top of the list. My last post was just to stat the fact that a bigger gun will do more damage than a smaller one thats all I'm saying energy does not lie. Im not knocking the smaller calibers I just dont like people saying a 270 will do the same damage as a 338. I agree that if you can shoot a 270 with a .3 inch group at 100 yards but shoot a 338 with a 10 inch group at 100 then yes you should be shooting the 270.
Hope this clears things up.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by justinO

If you go back and read my posts on this forum I specifically said that If the recoil effects you that's a totally different story. Accuracy is always the top of the list. My last post was just to stat the fact that a bigger gun will do more damage than a smaller one thats all I'm saying energy does not lie. Im not knocking the smaller calibers I just dont like people saying a 270 will do the same damage as a 338. I agree that if you can shoot a 270 with a .3 inch group at 100 yards but shoot a 338 with a 10 inch group at 100 then yes you should be shooting the 270.
Hope this clears things up.

Your degree of damage intrigues me. Can you please quantify how much more damage a 338 does when compared with the 270? I assume you have killed many head of game with both.

[leo]

It all comes back to shot placement, and I can't believe no one has mentioned bullet construction! while most bullets perform as desired under 3000FPS that can change drastically when you are torching off rounds from a magnum cartridge at 20 feet . Even premium bullets can fail to penetrate under these circumstances. Rather it is a combination of an accurate, familiar firearm with a well constructed bullet and the proper sighting instrument for the task (usually a low power variable or open sights). And lastly are you wearing DEPENDS

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by chuck

Your degree of damage intrigues me. Can you please quantify how much more damage a 338 does when compared with the 270? I assume you have killed many head of game with both.

shot my 9th bull elk this year with a 338. Last 4 have been with the 338. The rest of them and countless other head of game have fallen with the following, 270, 30-06, 257 weatherby, 300 winmag. I have killled elk with all of these cartridges and there is nothing scientific about my observations. There is a reason that i have been packing a 338 for the last 5 years though. It makes them go down within site. They don't get to the thick timber. They don't make it 200 yards, they drop within sight!!!

I shoot it accurately and it is a workhorse. Do you need it? No? does it give me confidence? Yes! that is the most important thing. It would definately be what i would be packing for Grizz.

[Pathfinder76]

270, 280, and 280 AI respectively. All dropped "within sight". In fact they went a collective distance of 40 yds. Like I said, the theory is easy to poke holes in.

[surhuntsalot]

Originally Posted by justinO

I have never Killed a Bear I have never seen a grizzly up close. But one thing is a Fact they are Huge and from articles I have read can do serious damage after they have been shot even with perfect shot placement. Their adrenaline is something incredible when they are charging.
As for guns All this my great great grandfather killed a grizz with a 22 ok what is the debate here?? Yes you can kill anything with a 22 are you gonna go to africa with a 22 to kill an cape Buffalo or lion??? Bigger is always better physics don't lie. More energy is more energy Period. If you cannot shoot the bigger guns accurately then yes go with what you can shoot but dont say a 270 is better than a 338 for killing anything it's just physics. If you have 2 exact cars one with 800hp and one 500hp witch one will go faster??
All I know is if a Grizz was charging me I want the biggest gun I could get my hands on

Having been a Big Game Guide for almost 20 years, I have seen more bears meet their demise than most will ever see. I have also seen first hand results of damage done to tissue by different calibers. The idea that "bigger is better" is not always true. Bullet construction, and shot placement are two of the biggest factors. I had two bears taken on the same night. One fellow was using a .375 H&H with 300 grain bullets, the other hunter was using a .270 win with 130 grain ballistic tips. Both shots were about 40 yards, and you would not believe the hole the .270 put in that bear, while the .375 had a hole the size of a dime going in, and about the size of a loonie goung out. The sectional density and bullet construction play a huge role in the expansion, and tissue damage. You may have a cartrige that has more than double the muzzle energy, but if the bullet passes through the remaining energy is lost. So, if your .338 puts 2,300 .ft.lbs of energy into your target before the bullet exits, how different is that from a .270 putting 2,300 ft.lbs int a target.

Kinda like on the "Best Of The West" where if a single shot from a 6.5-284 can drop a bull elk in his tracks at 700 yards, why would a simmilar sized bull elk run almost 300 yards after a shot trough the vitals at 150 yards with a .300 Win Mag ?

[Traps]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

The idea that "bigger is better" is not always true. Bullet construction, and shot placement are two of the biggest factors.....you would not believe the hole the .270 put in that bear, while the .375 had a hole the size of a dime going in, and about the size of a loonie goung out......a .270 putting 2,300 ft.lbs in a target.

Good post surhunt, a lot of common sense in that post. Like was said before grizzley's aren't made of steel but people get this false sense of security and equate dangerous game with more rifle. The 7x57 was used to brain shoot elephants with 175 grain bullets. Sure it has a lot to do with sectional density but velocity plays an even bigger role. Take that same 175 grain bullet and toss it at 7 RUM velocities and you won't get the same penetration for most bullets. This is why the 6.5x55, 7mm-08,7x57,270,308,30-06 are such great cartridges, you can go from real light to real heavy and be within that performance envelope most of the time.

[Outcast]

Never said it couldn't be done and that the smaller cartridges won't get it done. In fact, my observations over the years were not "scientific". They are strictly my observations and like i said at the end of my post it "gives me confidence". The single most important thing with whatever you carry.

I have used all types of different bullets through all of my guns and have finally settled on what i shoot now and it works for me.

Confidence is the key.

[frenchy]

hello Outcast,

I just posted a new thread about relod of.338 WM , could you give me some hint ?

Thanks

[Whiskey Wish]

SheepGuide & Chuck
Thanks for the replies. That's all I was asking for.
Regards,
Dave.

So a Joe Ordinary hunter is going out the door to go on a big ole grizzly bear hunt. He has a rack of rifles in front of him with a few calibers to chose from, lets pick some at random here. .270 , 30-06, .308, 300 win mag, 338 win mag. He has shot them all and is proficient with all of them but not a marksman or a sniper and all the rifles are similarly equipped. He has never shot a grizzly before but has shot plenty of other big game.
All his gear is loaded and the truck is idling and he reaches out and takes the ???? off the rack to take with him.
Anyone?

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[sheepguide]

The gun that is his favorite and that he wants to shoot his bear with. They will all work so now its up to his personal thoughts on what he wants to pack.
SG

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by surhuntsalot

Having been a Big Game Guide for almost 20 years, I have seen more bears meet their demise than most will ever see. I have also seen first hand results of damage done to tissue by different calibers. The idea that "bigger is better" is not always true. Bullet construction, and shot placement are two of the biggest factors. I had two bears taken on the same night. One fellow was using a .375 H&H with 300 grain bullets, the other hunter was using a .270 win with 130 grain ballistic tips. Both shots were about 40 yards, and you would not believe the hole the .270 put in that bear, while the .375 had a hole the size of a dime going in, and about the size of a loonie goung out. The sectional density and bullet construction play a huge role in the expansion, and tissue damage. You may have a cartrige that has more than double the muzzle energy, but if the bullet passes through the remaining energy is lost. So, if your .338 puts 2,300 .ft.lbs of energy into your target before the bullet exits, how different is that from a .270 putting 2,300 ft.lbs int a target.

Kinda like on the "Best Of The West" where if a single shot from a 6.5-284 can drop a bull elk in his tracks at 700 yards, why would a simmilar sized bull elk run almost 300 yards after a shot trough the vitals at 150 yards with a .300 Win Mag ?

Yeah!!!

Very good post Surhuntsalot. I love that moniker!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

The gun that is his favorite and that he wants to shoot his bear with. They will all work so now its up to his personal thoughts on what he wants to pack.
SG

X2 That is it in a nutshell.

[Whiskey Wish]

SheepGuide and Chuck and any other experienced bear hunters:
Forgot to ask in my previous post; What calibers do each of YOU shoot your bears with? Not the exceptional ones, the ones you deliberately reach for when you go bear hunting.
As professional (in some cases), experienced bear hunters your personal choice of calibers should be a good example for Joe Ordinary.
Regards,
Dave.

[sheepguide]

Ive mainly packed a pre 64 30-06( partly because an old time guide that I mentioned earlier used to pack it and it seems to bring me luck) while guiding in BC and the last few years my .270wsm. Ive shot bears while hunting with my bow, .50cal muz.,.280, 30-06 and .270wsm. Ive shot 3 charging grizzly bears, 2 with my '06(both the same year) and one with a 30-30(yes all reported to F&W).
SG

[KegRiver]

30 06 if I am expecting a longer range shot, more then 100 yards.

30 30 for close in, under 50 yards.

[justinO]

Ok first thing it seems like some people who shoot the smaller calibers cannot grasp the concept or admit that a bigger caliber does provide more energy and will do more damage. I only shoot a 300 wm I know a 338 will do way more damage than my gun I just cant afford to shoot that gun every shot will be more than double the cost of my gun but i'm not gonna be bitter and hate on the 338 and say my 300 will do more damage.
Now we are talking about bullet densities and pass thru's. Yes if you are shooting target bullets out of a 338 your not too smart. Every single shot is different you cant compare a specific 270 kill on a grizz and a specific 338 kill on a grizz or any animal for that matter. Different bullets, different distances, different velocities and different shot placements. Same species but different animal killed each with different amounts of adrenaline and in different moods unless you guys have found a way to revive these bears then kill them again with a different caliber and see how they die with the least amount of variables?? Its like saying i saw a guy get punched by mike tyson and didnt drop but this other guy got hit by an old lady and was knocked out so the old lady punch must do more damage some people have glass chins And no im not implying that a 270 is an old lady punch I can already here the replies to that here ill say the old lady punch is the 300 and my boy Mike Tyson is the 338!!! Im just trying to prove a point. And if your shooting these 270 130 grain V max bullets yes if you hit a grizzly in the perfect spot there will be huge destruction but what if you pull your shot by a few inches or if you never miss because you are that guy from the movie shooter what if he turns as you pull the trigger and you hit his shoulder then what?? Bet you wished you had that 338.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by justinO

Ok first thing it seems like some people who shoot the smaller calibers cannot grasp the concept or admit that a bigger caliber does provide more energy and will do more damage. I only shoot a 300 wm I know a 338 will do way more damage than my gun I just cant afford to shoot that gun every shot will be more than double the cost of my gun but i'm not gonna be bitter and hate on the 338 and say my 300 will do more damage.
Now we are talking about bullet densities and pass thru's. Yes if you are shooting target bullets out of a 338 your not too smart. Every single shot is different you cant compare a specific 270 kill on a grizz and a specific 338 kill on a grizz or any animal for that matter. Different bullets, different distances, different velocities and different shot placements. Same species but different animal killed each with different amounts of adrenaline and in different moods unless you guys have found a way to revive these bears then kill them again with a different caliber and see how they die with the least amount of variables?? Its like saying i saw a guy get punched by mike tyson and didnt drop but this other guy got hit by an old lady and was knocked out so the old lady punch must do more damage some people have glass chins And no im not implying that a 270 is an old lady punch I can already here the replies to that here ill say the old lady punch is the 300 and my boy Mike Tyson is the 338!!! Im just trying to prove a point. And if your shooting these 270 130 grain V max bullets yes if you hit a grizzly in the perfect spot there will be huge destruction but what if you pull your shot by a few inches or if you never miss because you are that guy from the movie shooter what if he turns as you pull the trigger and you hit his shoulder then what?? Bet you wished you had that 338.

Where does this stuff come from? Your information is based on something you have never experienced first hand.

I've hunted with the 7mm RM, 300 WM, 338 WM, and the 375 H&H, along with a myriad of other "standard" cartridges, so have a clue what they will do. I choose to hunt with less recoil, burn less powder, put up with less noise, and pack less weight because, based on my experience, it is unnecessary.

[justinO]

Where does this come from?? I dont know a little thing called physics!!!!! and ok you guys win if you go on an african hunt of dangerous game or on an alaskan griz hunt take your 270 shooting 130 gr bullets and see what the outfiter/guide says

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by justinO

Where does this come from?? I dont know a little thing called physics!!!!! and ok you guys win if you go on an african hunt of dangerous game or on an alaskan griz hunt take your 270 shooting 130 gr bullets and see what the outfiter/guide says

Reasoning behind this... their personal preference as to what works.
I know of one guy that hunted with a Brown Bear Guide this year that doesnt alow Barns bullets, why because in his eyes Barns arent good enough but yet alot of bears are killed every year with Barns bullets.

And yes physics state that big bullets hit harder but doesnt mean that smaller calibers arent used. And for your info the main guys that are recomending large calibers are Brown Brear Guides not Alaskan Grizzlies. Still lots of combo hunts including Grizz in Alaska that guys pack smaller than magnum cartridges.
Most dangerous game outfitters require large magnum cartridges because of that margin for error. That means that a crappy shot has a better chance of doing the job. Doesnt always mean it does as guys wound animals shooting the largest of calibers.
A .270 in the hands of a calm seasoned hunter is more deadly that a .416 in the hands of a rattled inexperienced shooter.
I know wich hunter id rather guide!
Just because physics says the bullet can do it doesnt mean a hunter can make it do that.
SG

[justinO]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Reasoning behind this... their personal preference as to what works.
I know of one guy that hunted with a Brown Bear Guide this year that doesnt alow Barns bullets, why because in his eyes Barns arent good enough but yet alot of bears are killed every year with Barns bullets.

And yes physics state that big bullets hit harder but doesnt mean that smaller calibers arent used. And for your info the main guys that are recomending large calibers are Brown Brear Guides not Alaskan Grizzlies. Still lots of combo hunts including Grizz in Alaska that guys pack smaller than magnum cartridges.
Most dangerous game outfitters require large magnum cartridges because of that margin for error. That means that a crappy shot has a better chance of doing the job. Doesnt always mean it does as guys wound animals shooting the largest of calibers.
A .270 in the hands of a calm seasoned hunter is more deadly that a .416 in the hands of a rattled inexperienced shooter.
I know wich hunter id rather guide!
Just because physics says the bullet can do it doesnt mean a hunter can make it do that.
SG

Ok I agree with you. and once again I said in a last post you shoot whatever you can shoot most accurately first. But if you are on a dangerous game hunt guiding someone who can shoot a 338 lapua with the same accuracy as the 270 and the guns weight the same its no harder to carry up a mountain U have hearing protection you are 300lbs pure muscle the recoil doesnt effect you there are no variables you just have to pull the trigger what would you rather be shooting?? And yes a bigger caliber allows for more of a margin of error and allows for much longer ethical kills Why?? Because they have more power they can blow a shoulder up where the smaller calibers may or may not. I don't understand why everyone gets the feeling that a 270 shoots more accurately than the big caliber guns? The guns do there part its just the shooter if you cant shot the bigger guns that's one thing don't say the gun isn't accurate. Its always the guy holding the 270 is the calm hunter who can make the shot and the big caliber guy cant hit a broad side of a barn?? People shooting a smaller caliber are not gods they can miss too the gun doesn't shoot heat seekers..

[3Dshooter]

Back to cartridge selection... When hunting grizzly, my choice is a Sako .338 Win shooting a 225 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw backed by a healthy dose of Reloader 19. For the coastal rivers and streams, it's my Model 70 Winchester in .458 Win pushing a 450 grain Barnes TSX. When I'm accompanying others while grizzly hunting I always carry my Ruger #1 .375 H&H. It's short barreled, balances nicely and very reliable. I stuff this with 270 grain Barnes Banded Solids and 270 grain Barnes TSX's. The two loads group within 1" of each other at 100 yards.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by justinO

Where does this come from?? I dont know a little thing called physics!!!!! and ok you guys win if you go on an african hunt of dangerous game or on an alaskan griz hunt take your 270 shooting 130 gr bullets and see what the outfiter/guide says

I had a good go around with physics in university, jacked around in the 1st class barely passing. Got serious and took 2nd & 3rd year courses that resulted in a recruitment letter by the department. If you have taken physics courses and know the principles surrounding it then I can take your comments seriously. Their are some well renowned hunters, gun scribes, guides and others in tow that use the word physics loosely, great for them they can shoot at greater expense to themselves. I have nothing against the bigger is better crowd, if it gives you more confidence and you can shoot them, all the power to you. There are also guys that use field experience to bypass all the physics BS and recognize great calibers for what they are.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by Traps

I had a good go around with physics in university, jacked around in the 1st class barely passing. Got serious and took 2nd & 3rd year courses that resulted in a recruitment letter by the department. If you have taken physics courses and know the principles surrounding it then I can take your comments seriously. Their are some well renowned hunters, gun scribes, guides and others in tow that use the word physics loosely, great for them they can shoot at greater expense to themselves. I have nothing against the bigger is better crowd, if it gives you more confidence and you can shoot them, all the power to you. There are also guys that use field experience to bypass all the physics BS and recognize great calibers for what they are.

What Are you getting at here? I am no physics major but I am a kinesiology major in my Sr year so I deal more with biology courses but have taken my gen ed science courses as well. I am taking an astronomy course as we speak and it deals with physics a lot so am I Isaac Newton NO but I do have a humble understanding.
So I take it you are intelligent in this field so please answer me this simple question. And I will try to eliminate all variables so it can be as easy of an answer as possible.
What will produce the most energy/ damage into a gelatin block shot from a machine in a lab setting a 338 lapua with a 200 grain bullet or a 270 with a 130 gr bullet both at max safe loads?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by justinO

What Are you getting at here? I am no physics major but I am a kinesiology major in my Sr year so I deal more with biology courses but have taken my gen ed science courses as well. I am taking an astronomy course as we speak and it deals with physics a lot so am I Isaac Newton NO but I do have a humble understanding.
So I take it you are intelligent in this field so please answer me this simple question. And I will try to eliminate all variables so it can be as easy of an answer as possible.
What will produce the most energy/ damage into a gelatin block shot from a machine in a lab setting a 338 lapua with a 200 grain bullet or a 270 with a 130 gr bullet both at max safe loads?

That depends entirely on the bullet. This isn't kinesiology nor is it a campus. I will tell you though, if I took ten shots at ten head of game with ten different rifles using ten different cartridges ranging from 270 to 338 lapua I'd bet ten people could not match one dead animal to one cartridge let alone all ten. That includes reaction, how rapidly they die, and evident tissue damage.

[justinO]

Originally Posted by chuck

That depends entirely on the bullet. This isn't kinesiology nor is it a campus. I will tell you though, if I took ten shots at ten head of game with ten different rifles using ten different cartridges ranging from 270 to 338 lapua I'd bet ten people could not match one dead animal to one cartridge let alone all ten. That includes reaction, how rapidly they die, and evident tissue damage.

Once again we cant answer a simple question. I think the problem here is that in fact it is not a campus. And Opinion is only for arguments that will never end. Facts are Facts. I specifically said eliminate all variables if you go back and read my post. I assumed you would take that as you would be using the same bullet. But now to clarify using the same bullet in both loads what would the answer be?
Every time someone responds to what I say they always try switching something first it was accuracy the smaller calibers shoot better because of the recoil. then it was the bigger caliber is to heavy to carry, then it was too loud, so I switched to a machine shooting the gun.
I understand for some people it might not be the best choice I get that all I want is someone to look at the simple facts and have the guts to say yes the bigger calibers produce more energy down range and for the most part unless certain circumstances the damage should be greater if you gut shot an animal then it wont really matter but if you hit the front shoulder it will. Its a fact not fiction. Can you kill things with a 270 30-06 7mm 300 win mag Absolutely BUT an anti aircraft 50 cal will do more damage its simple more energy is more energy.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by justinO

Once again we cant answer a simple question. I think the problem here is that in fact it is not a campus. And Opinion is only for arguments that will never end. Facts are Facts. I specifically said eliminate all variables if you go back and read my post. I assumed you would take that as you would be using the same bullet. But now to clarify using the same bullet in both loads what would the answer be?
Every time someone responds to what I say they always try switching something first it was accuracy the smaller calibers shoot better because of the recoil. then it was the bigger caliber is to heavy to carry, then it was too loud, so I switched to a machine shooting the gun.
I understand for some people it might not be the best choice I get that all I want is someone to look at the simple facts and have the guts to say yes the bigger calibers produce more energy down range and for the most part unless certain circumstances the damage should be greater if you gut shot an animal then it wont really matter but if you hit the front shoulder it will. Its a fact not fiction. Can you kill things with a 270 30-06 7mm 300 win mag Absolutely BUT an anti aircraft 50 cal will do more damage its simple more energy is more energy.

Read my signature line.