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  #91  
Old 09-28-2011, 05:16 PM
858king 858king is offline
 
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? Horsetrader?

I stated specifically that on private land, private individuals can do as they please, and that I would support regulation of shooting/management on public land and therefore "public" animals. Of course there are complexities, but the point is that if it's a publicly owned resource (which suckers are, however much it means) then it's a public responsibility.

It's like this: if someone decides he doesn't like the bench sitting at the local muni park and decides to light it on fire, he's a vandal. I think we would agree. If however he owns his bench, then he can burn as many as he likes and it will be expensive and wasteful, but that's about it.

And similarly, if a person decides to kill a publicly owned fish, even a sucker, for no reason other than simply killing it, then he is vandalising a public resource. To what end would the justification be? If bait, fine; food, fine; dogfood, probably; fertilizer for a personal garden, great (although verging on wasteful). If just to kill it for some sort of personal goal, then not so great.

And that is what the general public views hunting and fishing as: as vandalism of a public resource. In the eyes of law and logic, hunters only retain the privilege/right so long as they abide by rules designed for the good of the community (in theory anyways). If we (and by we I mean "we" and not "you") act with complete disregard for the resources granted to us, with disrespect for the lives of what we kill and the responsibility they represent, then we will find our rights removed until the only ones who CAN hunt and fish are those that own the land and animals outright, like in Europe.

I would hazard to guess that most people on this forum would be against private ownership of fish and wildlife resources. Why then would we pursue and aid attitudes that logically result in our hunting and fishing privileges being taken away?
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  #92  
Old 09-28-2011, 06:30 PM
maverick_8teen maverick_8teen is offline
 
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So didn't read the whole Thread...too much mixed ideas. If suckers are native to said body of water why kill them...its where they are meant to be, to survive. If they are not meant to be there im sure nature will take its course, may take a decade or 2. Im no expert on whose at the top of the food chain but from what i understand a fish is a fish...the big one eats the little one.

With that said...I do know there are different levels of predatory...im sure suckers and trout are on a different level.

Can we not all agree that at one point in time the fisheries introduced a species or 2 from one body of water to another which was not a part of that body of water as we know it.

The fact that there are suckers and trout in lakes and rivers that are not native to those bodies of water are the governments doing. A luxary of sport fishing that we pay for...a luxary that the goverment makes money on.

Have we not seen the TV shows where catfish (family to the suckers as i know it) is a treat. Perhaps a sucker is a tasty delight...

In my opinion if you catch the sucker and dont want to eat it, throw it back...nature will kill it off if intended. The bears, cougers and cyotes can find their own food; they dont need you to give them a sucker for desert.
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  #93  
Old 09-28-2011, 06:48 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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Originally Posted by 858king View Post
? Horsetrader?

I stated specifically that on private land, private individuals can do as they please, and that I would support regulation of shooting/management on public land and therefore "public" animals. Of course there are complexities, but the point is that if it's a publicly owned resource (which suckers are, however much it means) then it's a public responsibility.

It's like this: if someone decides he doesn't like the bench sitting at the local muni park and decides to light it on fire, he's a vandal. I think we would agree. If however he owns his bench, then he can burn as many as he likes and it will be expensive and wasteful, but that's about it.

And similarly, if a person decides to kill a publicly owned fish, even a sucker, for no reason other than simply killing it, then he is vandalising a public resource. To what end would the justification be? If bait, fine; food, fine; dogfood, probably; fertilizer for a personal garden, great (although verging on wasteful). If just to kill it for some sort of personal goal, then not so great.

And that is what the general public views hunting and fishing as: as vandalism of a public resource. In the eyes of law and logic, hunters only retain the privilege/right so long as they abide by rules designed for the good of the community (in theory anyways). If we (and by we I mean "we" and not "you") act with complete disregard for the resources granted to us, with disrespect for the lives of what we kill and the responsibility they represent, then we will find our rights removed until the only ones who CAN hunt and fish are those that own the land and animals outright, like in Europe.

I would hazard to guess that most people on this forum would be against private ownership of fish and wildlife resources. Why then would we pursue and aid attitudes that logically result in our hunting and fishing privileges being taken away?
Nice side stepping around the issue so this time i will ask straight out WHO owns the Gophers
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  #94  
Old 09-28-2011, 06:55 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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Originally Posted by maverick_8teen View Post
So didn't read the whole Thread...too much mixed ideas. If suckers are native to said body of water why kill them...its where they are meant to be, to survive. If they are not meant to be there im sure nature will take its course, may take a decade or 2. Im no expert on whose at the top of the food chain but from what i understand a fish is a fish...the big one eats the little one.

With that said...I do know there are different levels of predatory...im sure suckers and trout are on a different level.

Can we not all agree that at one point in time the fisheries introduced a species or 2 from one body of water to another which was not a part of that body of water as we know it.

The fact that there are suckers and trout in lakes and rivers that are not native to those bodies of water are the governments doing. A luxary of sport fishing that we pay for...a luxary that the goverment makes money on.

Have we not seen the TV shows where catfish (family to the suckers as i know it) is a treat. Perhaps a sucker is a tasty delight...

In my opinion if you catch the sucker and dont want to eat it, throw it back...nature will kill it off if intended. The bears, cougers and cyotes can find their own food; they dont need you to give them a sucker for desert.
1 you should read from the start 2suckers and trout eat similar things 3 Catfish and suckers are not the same family
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  #95  
Old 09-28-2011, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by horsetrader View Post
1 you should read from the start 2suckers and trout eat similar things 3 Catfish and suckers are not the same family
4... end of discussion.
5... close this damn thread
6... why are we spending so much time on this topic.
7... whats for dinner
8... mmm whitefish
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  #96  
Old 09-28-2011, 07:10 PM
858king 858king is offline
 
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Horsetrader, you didn't say that the first time.

The public owns the gophers and has decided that the farmer or anyone else can do as they please within reason. The public owns the deer and has decided on regulations. The public owns the suckers and has decided thus far that a person can do what they want with them.

My contention all along was: just because a person can do whatever they want with suckers doesn't necessarily mean they should, and is it good for the image and tradition of hunting/fishing to do so, and is it good for the environment to do so given the history of the bison, passenger pigeon, plains grizzly, hawks/falcons, bull trout, pike, etc.

Cheers buddy. I'm done!
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  #97  
Old 09-28-2011, 08:15 PM
stvnda stvnda is offline
 
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How do we go about getting a 'like' button or an 'LOL' button for this forum?
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  #98  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:21 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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That's a good point but typically, gophers are on private land and the removal of them serves a definite purpose (like protecting crops/livestock) and therefore livelihood. It also presents the fact that as the owner of the land, the property owner has every right to benefit from it and protect it according to how he sees fit. I would see no issue with regulating the shooting of gophers on public land, by the way.

However, the comparison is basically apples to rocks because it's so different. Alberta waters are for the most part public waters and we all have a degree of stewardship and stake in them. A better comparison would perhaps be the killing of ducks in the tailing ponds of Fort Mac. Why the outrage? Because the ducks are seen as your own property, and that's because they are -- the tailing ponds were killing our own property. In the same way, killing fish just because is you killing my property and vice versa.

And then held against the historical precedents set by the wanton destruction of the buffalo, passenger pigeon, hawks/falcons, bull trout, pike, burbot, etc, and one gets a sense of how foolish and irresponsible it is. Four of that list are practically extinct and it's because of this type of irresponsible attitude.

I don't mean it as a judgement. What I raise is the facts: suckers are native and trout for the most part aren't, so the latter is the interloper. Wanton destruction is short-sighted. This is a public resource and private individuals have no right to regulate a public resource as they see fit. Etc.
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Originally Posted by 858king View Post
Horsetrader, you didn't say that the first time.

The public owns the gophers and has decided that the farmer or anyone else can do as they please within reason. The public owns the deer and has decided on regulations. The public owns the suckers and has decided thus far that a person can do what they want with them.

My contention all along was: just because a person can do whatever they want with suckers doesn't necessarily mean they should, and is it good for the image and tradition of hunting/fishing to do so, and is it good for the environment to do so given the history of the bison, passenger pigeon, plains grizzly, hawks/falcons, bull trout, pike, etc.

Cheers buddy. I'm done!
So we are in agreement that there is no difference between the killing of gophers and the killing of suckers.

Cheers
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  #99  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:24 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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4... end of discussion.
5... close this damn thread
6... why are we spending so much time on this topic.
7... whats for dinner
8... mmm whitefish
no one is forcing you to spend anytime on this topic at all
9 ...your dismissed
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  #100  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:26 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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How do we go about getting a 'like' button or an 'LOL' button for this forum?
Try staples
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  #101  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:27 PM
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no one is forcing you to spend anytime on this topic at all
9 ...your dismisted
10 .... maybe he's mysticized
11 ... I need dismisting for my sunglasses
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  #102  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:30 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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10 .... maybe he's mysticized
11 ... I need dismisting for my sunglasses
12 friggin computer writes its own words
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  #103  
Old 09-28-2011, 09:33 PM
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12 friggin computer writes its own words
I have that problem with my phone,, pre-emptive words,, I start texting something starting with the letter A and voila Aardvark, why-who-what-what-why would I want to text Aardvark???
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  #104  
Old 09-29-2011, 02:09 AM
pondstomper pondstomper is offline
 
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used to blow them up with fireworks when we were kids....or play sucker punt on the bow. Fun times when ur 14, but as mentioned above, pike and lakers, and bulls love em. Have caught them on a fly a few times, fight pretty good, other than the fact ur line and fly are slimy as all hell.
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  #105  
Old 09-29-2011, 03:02 AM
Isopod Isopod is offline
 
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Can't believe there's still people supporting the random killing of suckers in waters where they've existed long before people introduced rainbow trout. Look, if you're so confident about how correct it is to toss a sucker into the bushes and let it rot, write a letter-to-the-editor to your local newspaper and tell them about how you hate suckers and how you throw them up on shore to let them rot. Then wait for the public uproar and the sudden changes to fishing regulations to protect suckers. The only people who support the random killing of suckers in their native waters are a few misguided souls who spend too much time in their own small world of sucker-haters and don't get out into the real world very much. Go ahead, write that letter to your local paper about how you love to throw suckers into the bushes. I dare you.
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  #106  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:08 AM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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Can't believe there's still people supporting the random killing of suckers in waters where they've existed long before people introduced rainbow trout. Look, if you're so confident about how correct it is to toss a sucker into the bushes and let it rot, write a letter-to-the-editor to your local newspaper and tell them about how you hate suckers and how you throw them up on shore to let them rot. Then wait for the public uproar and the sudden changes to fishing regulations to protect suckers. The only people who support the random killing of suckers in their native waters are a few misguided souls who spend too much time in their own small world of sucker-haters and don't get out into the real world very much. Go ahead, write that letter to your local paper about how you love to throw suckers into the bushes. I dare you.
It doesn't bother me to chuck them in to the bushes so why would I want to write a letter to the editor i have no problem with the situation.it appears you are the one that has issues with it so perhaps it is you that should do the letter writing. I will look forward to reading it. Please post when you've written it. Untill then i'll keep tossin
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  #107  
Old 09-29-2011, 09:54 AM
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I think everyone needs to just drop this thread and let it sink into the abyss of thread archive page 1 000 000... for the sake of everyone's ego and their poor keyboards...take a step away from the computer and BREATHE....
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  #108  
Old 09-29-2011, 02:38 PM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
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theres a sucker born every minute.
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  #109  
Old 09-29-2011, 05:38 PM
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Chub, even I get it. Sundance lake is like a big fish tank. There is no "Natural" balance. The balance is how the owners deal with it.
come on guys... Even I get it that Chubby and HunterDave know the difference... I was not going to post...but it did get out of control...and some may not understand that there are 5 million posts on this.

We are firstly...not wasting the perch. They are getting eaten...smaller ones used for fertiziler.

Secondly...these illegally introduced perch stunt and as this is a lake without inflow or outflow...and is man made...we must manage the fishery as intended...a stocked rainbow trout fishery. Perch and trout colide on that front as perch stunt and millions of perch eat the trout's natural food supply harming growth and the recreational value.

Thirdly...suckers in a pothole lake etc...do the same thing...they compete with trout in a closed system. In a natural system...while imbalances happen...mother nature can adjust...increase natural predators etc.

I did a cool spawning survey on Wolf Lake. The walleye spawn right when the ice is melting around the edges...then shortly after the white suckers spawn. The walleye and pike have a bit of a head start size wise...so once the suckers hatch...watch out cause the small walleye and pike can start to target them. Circle of life.

Comparing a man made lake to a natural stream...guys...Chubby and HunterDave can call ....gotcha...
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  #110  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
come on guys... Even I get it that Chubby and HunterDave know the difference... I was not going to post...but it did get out of control...and some may not understand that there are 5 million posts on this.

We are firstly...not wasting the perch. They are getting eaten...smaller ones used for fertiziler.

Secondly...these illegally introduced perch stunt and as this is a lake without inflow or outflow...and is man made...we must manage the fishery as intended...a stocked rainbow trout fishery. Perch and trout colide on that front as perch stunt and millions of perch eat the trout's natural food supply harming growth and the recreational value.

Thirdly...suckers in a pothole lake etc...do the same thing...they compete with trout in a closed system. In a natural system...while imbalances happen...mother nature can adjust...increase natural predators etc.

I did a cool spawning survey on Wolf Lake. The walleye spawn right when the ice is melting around the edges...then shortly after the white suckers spawn. The walleye and pike have a bit of a head start size wise...so once the suckers hatch...watch out cause the small walleye and pike can start to target them. Circle of life.

Comparing a man made lake to a natural stream...guys...Chubby and HunterDave can call ....gotcha...

Dave was right...im back
How does your man made lake differ from public manmade lakes? Because the great Sun lives next to it?....yaa right
Most of the lakes down here are manmade....many with no outlets as you speak of....many filled by pipe or ditch thats dry most of the year.How do you fill your lake?
Enchant pond is a prime example...its manmade....its smaller than your lake....its got a perch/trout competition on going.....when is mother nature going to correct it?
What lakes are you actually intimate with in southern alberta?....what lakes have you been close to... to watch its year to year changes?.....you talk about walleye spawning....where do they spawn on travers, keho, LBR ?..p.s. if by some fluke you do know...dont post your answers.

You deem it okay to kill perch for fertilizer in the best interest of the choosen species in your manmade lake on the basis its manmade and mother nature wont cure the problem.....But on private manmade lakes mother nature will correct itself.............They must have taught you that in the special fish bio class. Well if its okay and justified to fertilize your tree with a sportfish...why cant we fertilize the banks for vegetation to stop soil erosion? With a non sportfish....did you suddenly become a law maker also when your not being the best Bio in the world?
I never brought streams into this, but seeing as you have... your little waterfall is alot bigger stream than many of our lakes have.

Jamie..ihope the corrmorants and seals never affect the salmon population to the point something has to be done....they are both natural and living creatures and hardly manmade. Im sure no one will let mother nature take years to cure the problem and bullets will fly......And when they do I WILL TRUELY GET IT.

Floor is yours Sun,Shine on
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  #111  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:41 PM
Albertafisher Albertafisher is offline
 
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There are two kinds of people in this world; people who kill suckers and people who don't.
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  #112  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pickrel pat View Post
to you people who say its o.k to throw suckers away because they are competing with other fish are the same people who want to introduce bass into our waters, and by the way..... is it o.k for me to shoot all the moose i see and leave them for the wolves because i hunt whitetails and moose are competing with my whitetails?
If you had a legitimate moose issue with the area you are intimate with...i'd respect your opinion something should be done.....im not for killing for the sake of killing...Im all for managing a resource for balance with regard to a choosen species.
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  #113  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:46 PM
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There are two kinds of people in this world; people who kill suckers and people who don't.
Nah....people who are suckers...and people who aren't....

LC
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  #114  
Old 09-29-2011, 07:51 PM
horsetrader horsetrader is offline
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There are two kinds of people in this world; people who kill suckers and people who are.
sorry had to..........
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  #115  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:11 PM
Albertafisher Albertafisher is offline
 
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sorry had to..........
Well played
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  #116  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by chubbdarter View Post
Dave was right...im back
How does your man made lake differ from public manmade lakes? Because the great Sun lives next to it?....yaa right
Most of the lakes down here are manmade....many with no outlets as you speak of....many filled by pipe or ditch thats dry most of the year.How do you fill your lake?
Enchant pond is a prime example...its manmade....its smaller than your lake....its got a perch/trout competition on going.....when is mother nature going to correct it?
What lakes are you actually intimate with in southern alberta?....what lakes have you been close to... to watch its year to year changes?.....you talk about walleye spawning....where do they spawn on travers, keho, LBR ?..p.s. if by some fluke you do know...dont post your answers.

You deem it okay to kill perch for fertilizer in the best interest of the choosen species in your manmade lake on the basis its manmade and mother nature wont cure the problem.....But on private manmade lakes mother nature will correct itself.............They must have taught you that in the special fish bio class. Well if its okay and justified to fertilize your tree with a sportfish...why cant we fertilize the banks for vegetation to stop soil erosion? With a non sportfish....did you suddenly become a law maker also when your not being the best Bio in the world?
I never brought streams into this, but seeing as you have... your little waterfall is alot bigger stream than many of our lakes have.

Jamie..ihope the corrmorants and seals never affect the salmon population to the point something has to be done....they are both natural and living creatures and hardly manmade. Im sure no one will let mother nature take years to cure the problem and bullets will fly......And when they do I WILL TRUELY GET IT.

Floor is yours Sun,Shine on
ZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...the fish...took the bait...he is taking line.... Ping...

Nope...just spit the hook.

LOL

Now I know your pulling legs.

Chubby...you are one of the funniest on AOF for sure... Gustav is the funniest...classic British humor...but you are definitely in the top 10...more Jay Leno. Keep up the posting. This one has me rolling on the floor.

Sun

P.S. You better have some secret perch hooks this winter.

Last edited by Sundancefisher; 09-29-2011 at 08:42 PM.
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  #117  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:55 PM
SwampShark SwampShark is offline
 
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Well I was too lazy to read this entire thread so someone might have already posted my thoughts... but....
I highly doubt suckers can actually negatively impact trout numbers. In most stocked lakes and ponds the trout do not reproduce anyway if the issue is eating trout eggs. As far as food competition goes - my money is on the trout.
Let them live and laugh at your friends when they think they have a massive rainbow and pull out a sucker!!
Anyone ever tried to eat one? I've thought about it.
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  #118  
Old 09-29-2011, 08:57 PM
SwampShark SwampShark is offline
 
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1. Wow - just read up the page with someone getting on another guy about not reading the whole thread LOL
2. Want some good sucker recipies
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  #119  
Old 09-29-2011, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
ZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...the fish...took the bait...he is taking line.... Ping...

Nope...just spit the hook.

LOL

Now I know your pulling legs.

Chubby...you are one of the funniest on AOF for sure... Gustav is the funniest...classic British humor...but you are definitely in the top 10...more Jay Leno. Keep up the posting. This one has me rolling on the floor.

Sun

P.S. You better have some secret perch hooks this winter.

I hate perch...but i'll be happy to bonk a big trout....lol
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  #120  
Old 09-29-2011, 09:14 PM
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Don't go killin the suckers they keep the lakes waters clean
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